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Hitachi 51/57/65F59A CRT RPTV Tweaks Thread - Page 144

post #4291 of 4822
I have an Avia DVD, but its not Bluray version. I read the thread you cited and it says the patterns are for calibrating digital displays, not so much CRT's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post

If you don't own a calibration disc here is a great FREE one.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=948496

download and burn to a regular DVD, but it its for Blu-Ray player. Make sure you download the PDF file where explains how to use the different patterns.

Two of the most important one would be Black clipping and White Clipping; That would translate to setting Contrast and Brightness with in turn sets gamma for the set.

One more thing, this disc is in its 2.0b version, so make sure you get the latest version.
post #4292 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by VivatHD View Post

What is Black Crush and why is it bad? It sounds like bad thing, I was just wondering how it is exhibited in the picture. I have StatG1 @ 6 and StatG2 @ 2, then in the regular user video menu I have Contrast @ 26 and Brightness @ 71. Really like the pq exhibited with those settings. Factory defaults were StatG1 @ 0 and StatG2 @ 3. I have user video menu Brightness is set so high mainly because SubBright in the Service Menu is for some reason set lower than the 1st 51F59 I had (1st TV replaced with this one under warranty in 2007 due to geometry problem repairman could not resolve). On the 1st one this same approx black level (brightness) was achieved at a user video Brightness setting of around 58 - 60 if I remember right... again due to that TV having had a higher number in SubBright of the Service menu.

Black crush is when the Black Level - Brightness - is set so low that you miss details in dark areas, also known as Shadow Detail. Too high and there is haze and nothing that is supposed to be black is. Too low and certain key shadow details are not present, they are simply black.

Your User brightness should be relatively close to midpoint, like not more than 10 - preferably not more than 5 - clicks away. Your sub bright in service menu should be altered until that is true.

When you put your User brightness too far away from midpoint, gamma and grayscale can get affected adversely.

If your sub bright is too far off you also risk that, but there's much less chance of it happening in that case.

Both are dependent on where the Screen trimpots are set, of course. They all 3 factor in together, in the end -

b
post #4293 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by VivatHD View Post

I have an Avia DVD, but its not Bluray version. I read the thread you cited and it says the patterns are for calibrating digital displays, not so much CRT's.

All HD uses the same parameters, be it digital or CRT. Avia DVD is excellent for DVDs, but is not for HD. Your set has to be displaying HD before you can calibrate that HD.

I believe the format used to record Bluray is AVCHD, right Leo? It gets recorded on whatever density of disc you want to record it on, and plays in your Bluray player at HD scanrates.

Leo's reference is an excellent one. Another is the BD version of Joe Kane's DVE, which is available on Amazon for under $20.


b
post #4294 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by VivatHD View Post

I have an Avia DVD, but its not Bluray version. I read the thread you cited and it says the patterns are for calibrating digital displays, not so much CRT's.

That is because it only has two patterns for CRT based displays. For CRTs you would also need a covergeence patterns, regular and inverse, geometry pattern, etc.

All the clipping, color and overscan patterns are also needed for CRTs. It has a lot of digital specific patterns, such as all the pixel count specific patterns.

What I really like about this disc, if you have a meter and use ColorHCFR software, is that the IRE window patterns and the color window 100% patterns are in the correct order used by the software.
post #4295 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

...

I believe the format used to record Bluray is AVCHD, right Leo? It gets recorded on whatever density of disc you want to record it on, and plays in your Bluray player at HD scanrates.

...

b

To simplify the explanation... AVCHD is a type of a container or folder structure that most Blu-Ray players understand, it really doesn't matter what media is recorded on (in a way) as long as the player understands what it is.

In a low/average bit rate recording we can still use DVDs for AVCHD files, when higher bit rates for video and audio are used then BD recorders and BD media is needed since a regular DVD can handle these higher bit rates.
post #4296 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

I want to say a lot more, and I may not be as clear as I'd like to be, but writing this out on my phone isn't easy.

I'll report back later.

So what ARE your "final" (at least "currently final") settings?
post #4297 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post


In a low/average bit rate recording we can still use DVDs for AVCHD files, when higher bit rates for video and audio are used then BD recorders and BD media is needed since a regular DVD can handle these higher bit rates.

You mean "cannot" handle...?

b
post #4298 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

You mean "cannot" handle...?

b

That would be the correct statement.
post #4299 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwebb1970 View Post
AS to WHO @ Hitachi you are talking to.....are you calling Customer Relations @ 1-800-654-7013?

This is the number you want to use to speak with anyone regarding the F59 HDMI issues & any ongoing repair possibilities.
I'm calling the 1-800-HITACHI number, and then they transfer me to Customer Service/Relations. I assume that's the right place?

I wasn't able to call them today, and might not be able to over the next few days, as I have other things in my life that also need attention.
post #4300 of 4822
Thread Starter 
I'd dial the number I posted directly next time - who knows where their front line CSRs are sending you!
post #4301 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post
So what ARE your "final" (at least "currently final") settings?
Still at work, but once I get home I'll give you my Bright Set and Sub Contrast settings.

Basically, my SM settings are the same as my previous post, all of that processing is still off. I've just had to raise the Bright Set by a nice amount and the Sub Contrast by 1. The resulting PQ is awesome, but I am getting more black crush. I love my contrast, it's just that shadow detail is lacking and of course the overall picture is dimmer. I like the dimmer picture. It's easier on the eyes and it looks less like a digital set.
post #4302 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast

So what ARE your "final" (at least "currently final") settings?
Ok.......

Sub brt-70
Brt set-56
Subcnt-19

User brightness-51
U user contrast-10 or 8

I'm going to switch to rgb, calibrate, and see what I can see.
post #4303 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

Ok.......

Sub brt-70
Brt set-56
Subcnt-19

User brightness-51
U user contrast-10 or 8

I'm going to switch to rgb, calibrate, and see what I can see.

What about your SM registers.

I don't think that contrast and brightness are of much relevance if you use a meter to calibrate since these are dictated by the FTL and gamma.
post #4304 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post


What about your SM registers.

I don't think that contrast and brightness are of much relevance if you use a meter to calibrate since these are dictated by the FTL and gamma.


In the SM, sub-brt is at 78, brt-mid, off, and low is at 40, brt-set is at 4E, and subcnt is at 19.

Everything in the SM from OSDACL down to YOUTG is at 00.
post #4305 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

It's easier on the eyes and it looks less like a digital set.

Now if only they could get the digital sets looking less like digital sets.
post #4306 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post


Now if only they could get the digital sets looking less like digital sets.

Everything would be right in the world
post #4307 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwebb1970 View Post

I'd dial the number I posted directly next time - who knows where their front line CSRs are sending you!

I tried that number, twice. It rings once and then never goes anywhere.

So, I called the main number again, and pumped myself up for a fight, as I figured I'd have to beat my way up the chain. I was caught off guard and quite stunned when the first person I spoke with, named Dawn, informed me that they were moving forward with my case. They have contacted American TV, are going to send them the new board, and after reviewing my case, have decided to cover the labor costs too.

If everything goes right, then my set should FINALLY work right, after almost 4 years of being a 160 pounds of buyer's remorse.
post #4308 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

Everything in the SM from OSDACL down to YOUTG is at 00.

Using these, turned "sharpness" up from 50 to 70-75 with no ringing or artifacts. Very nice. Still experimenting.
post #4309 of 4822
Is there a list somewhere that details what each of these Service Menu registers control, that are being discussed?... OSDACL down to YOUTG? For instance, I seem to remember YOUTG being a powerful (too harsh) Gamma boost if set to 01...

Also, is there any benefit to setting the register CDE (Color Detail Enhancement) to 01 from the default of 00?
post #4310 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by VivatHD View Post

Is there a list somewhere that details what each of these Service Menu registers control, that are being discussed?... OSDACL down to YOUTG? For instance, I seem to remember YOUTG being a powerful (too harsh) Gamma boost if set to 01...

Also, is there any benefit to setting the register CDE (Color Detail Enhancement) to 01 from the default of 00?

Service manual. Let me know if you don't have one.
I wouldn't claim a "benefit" without a meter. Otherwise, you're just eyeballing it. Fun, perhaps, but not really what we're looking for.
post #4311 of 4822
Yeah, actually I think I have the preliminary 51/57/65F59 series service manual on PDF doc file from way back after I first got the TV, I found it online as a free download. Forgot I had it. I'll look them up in there, thx for the reminder.
post #4312 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Using these, turned "sharpness" up from 50 to 70-75 with no ringing or artifacts. Very nice. Still experimenting.

Sweet!

One thing I've noticed is that I see a faaaaaaaar less pronounced blue edge to lines. Leading me to believe that one of the controls turns the blue defocus on and off. I haven't experimented with tis yet, but my viewing seems to clearly support the theory.
post #4313 of 4822
Blue defocus, if I remember right, is present to augment the fidelity of whites and I thought zeroing in blue... for instance using the electronic focus pots on the front of the TV (removal of panel) was generally thought to have negative potential for whites. So in light of that would turning off blue defocus actually be desirable or not and would it have an effect on where STATG1 and STATG2 are set since together they effect potential white crush? These settings all seem so inter-connected... change one and it might have a subtle effect on another.
post #4314 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by VivatHD View Post

Blue defocus, if I remember right, is present to augment the fidelity of whites and I thought zeroing in blue... for instance using the electronic focus pots on the front of the TV (removal of panel) was generally thought to have negative potential for whites. So in light of that would turning off blue defocus actually be desirable or not and would it have an effect on where STATG1 and STATG2 are set since together they effect potential white crush? These settings all seem so inter-connected... change one and it might have a subtle effect on another.

Blue defocus, to the extent that it was prevalent on my set, is an undesirable thing, especially with today's sets. If I understand correctly, it is there to enhance light output relative to the red and green tubes, and therefore help with grayscale tracking. But in my set, it merely masked resolution and marked many lines with a horrible blue outline. There have been some front projection CRTers that have turned it off and noticed a much tighter, sharper picture. I have noticed the same thing recently with my set, in combination with the other settings. Gary Murell turned his off in conjunction with the much greater control over grayscale that a VP affords, and he reported loving it. I love it on my set too. Blue is stull not as sharp as other colors, and I can still see the blue tube sometimes, but it is a lot better than it was previously.

I haven't had to go back and change Stat1 or Stat2, they are both still at 00 and I don't foresee a need to move them from those positions.
post #4315 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordcloud View Post

I haven't had to go back and change Stat1 or Stat2, they are both still at 00 and I don't foresee a need to move them from those positions.

No need, since you can get CIE, gamma and luminance to look like this:
LL
LL
LL
post #4316 of 4822
New screenshots in the Color Decoder thread:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19526231
post #4317 of 4822
Who hoo!



Nice, Michael!



b
post #4318 of 4822
I can see one advantage of turning off blue defocus as being an improved ability to align blue during convergence tuning in DCAM or User 117pt. I don't know about anyone else, but my 47 yr old eyes are a little challenged when it comes to trying to discern the exact alignment of that fuzzy bloomy blue hue of the blue grid lines (even with the luminance of the grid toned down per the tweak). A better focused blue would greatly aid the ability to tell where exactly the blue grid lines are aligned. Red is easy to align, but blue is a pain due to the fuzzy blooming appearance.
post #4319 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by VivatHD View Post

I can see one advantage of turning off blue defocus as being an improved ability to align blue during convergence tuning in DCAM or User 117pt. I don't know about anyone else, but my 47 yr old eyes are a little challenged when it comes to trying to discern the exact alignment of that fuzzy bloomy blue hue of the blue grid lines (even with the luminance of the grid toned down per the tweak). A better focused blue would greatly aid the ability to tell where exactly the blue grid lines are aligned. Red is easy to align, but blue is a pain due to the fuzzy blooming appearance.

Blue is definitely fuzzier than the other colors, and not as easy to align because of it. The improvement in sharpness, picture imformation, and perceived resolution is huge though. I haven't even done a new convergence pass since changing the settings since the picture is soooo much sharper.
post #4320 of 4822
Blue defocusing is no longer needed on this last decade's CRT RPTVs. Before HD, it was needed because blue struggled to be bright enough, compared to red and green. Defocusing it electrostatically gave it more punch in the whites, allowing the blue drive to not have to work so hard to achieve the requisite D6500K. This was absolutely essential in CRT sets with lots of age on them, including ceiling projectors.

This is no longer necessary because the blue guns got a lot stronger around the time that HD came to pass, around year 2000. Blue can now keep up with red and green a lot better than before, tho it still will not keep up at full 100IRE. 80IRE is still the max that should be used for grayscale. But defocusing it will not really help all that much anymore.

So I would dispense with it if you have an HDready set at all. Just tighten up the blue focus as tight as you can in both ways of focusing - mechanical and electronic (at the focus block trimpots).


b
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