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Hitachi 51/57/65F59A CRT RPTV Tweaks Thread - Page 150

post #4471 of 4822
Can you imagine, Hitachi prioritizing High, and making it the only thing the service manual talks about, and at 10,000! Amazing...

Yes, if their factory version of grayscale being 10,000 has not already been decimated - with owner tweaks and remember grayscale drifts off over the years - then go with STD being D6500.

Since videophiles have no need of 10,000, it is not a priority for us. Consequently if your grayscale is nowhere near that now, maybe because you've fiddled with things enough that it's just not there anymore - just get High to 6500 and don't worry about STD.

Or leave High wherever it happens to be as is, and like Michael says, get STD to D6500.

Either way, D6500 is the cat's meow.

b
post #4472 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Can you imagine, Hitachi prioritizing High, and making it the only thing the service manual talks about, and at 10,000! Amazing...

Yes, if their factory version of grayscale being 10,000 has not already been decimated - with owner tweaks and remember grayscale drifts off over the years - then go with STD being D6500.

Since videophiles have no need of 10,000, it is not a priority for us. Consequently if your grayscale is nowhere near that now, maybe because you've fiddled with things enough that it's just not there anymore - just get High to 6500 and don't worry about STD.

Or leave High wherever it happens to be as is, and like Michael says, get STD to D6500.

Either way, D6500 is the cat's meow.

b

Grayscale on High has been trashed by the Dan Ackroyd Service tech and me. Remember when Ackroyd parodied the refrigerator repairman on the Old SNL. Classic! I was able to get a ruler flat RGB temperature reading on High as you suggested Bob. But it was only at 25 IRE with the screen pot adjustments. When I flipped to 100 IRE, and 50 IRE they were all way off compared to 25 IRE. Ironically B/W pictures looked perfect with the 25 IRE setting. But the green smudges/red push show up on color images. The PQ is really good & vibrant though. Many who wouldn't know better would say its great. But Those imperfections really bother me because they seem to be what I look for all of the time.

So I have fooled with the screen pots as much as I'm going to. I will attempt to get a better grayscale on Standard with the RGB DR/Out SM registers. But I doubt I will reach it on the wide range of IRE settings between 0-100 in icrements of 10 required for a ruler flat 6500 grayscale. So I'm gonna leave the perfection task for Bob when I can swing the Boston stop. And I'll focus only on getting 2-3 increments correct. Given that as my threshold, what should the ideal 3 increments be? Or should I just try to get 50 IRE right since 25 already looks great for B/W?

BTW Michael:
I would be embarrased to put my graphs up against yours. While I don't know what they all say. I do know they are UGLY. Some of those lines start on Mars and sweep over into the Andromeda Galaxy. But I have limited understanding of what they mean to the images. Because the picture actually looks good to me at times (when I'm not focusing on the imperfections).
post #4473 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

But I have limited understanding of what they mean to the images. Because the picture actually looks good to me at times (when I'm not focusing on the imperfections).

You've seen this, no?
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457
post #4474 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

You've seen this, no?
http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457

Yes. That is the guide I use. But what I see on the tube doesn't match up with the bad numbers I'm getting on the graphs. That is what I meant. I may get good grayscale matches on 2-4 settings and the xy numbers may seem close. But the graph come sout cattawhompus. I"ll see if I can copy one and show you. In the last set of adjustments (screen pots) for example: the green tracked straight line like it's supposed too. Red did the same except for a few spots. Blue rose up early, and stayed above the others, even though it measured only at 102 compared to 100 for Green and Red. But some of the graphs looked like I had tossed a hand grenade in the TV. All the while the PQ looked great and only appeared to need tweaking.
post #4475 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

Yes. That is the guide I use. But what I see on the tube doesn't match up with the bad numbers I'm getting on the graphs. That is what I meant. I may get good grayscale matches on 2-4 settings and the xy numbers may seem close. But the graph come sout cattawhompus. I"ll see if I can copy one and show you. In the last set of adjustments (screen pots) for example: the green tracked straight line like it's supposed too. Red did the same except for a few spots. Blue rose up early, and stayed above the others, even though it measured only at 102 compared to 100 for Green and Red. But some of the graphs looked like I had tossed a hand grenade in the TV. All the while the PQ looked great and only appeared to need tweaking.

If you had changed some registers in SM, specially the Dynamic stuff, makes the individual measurements seem right but it affects the overall tracking albeit for gamma or luminance.

I would start with everything at default per the manual, get a good grayscale and color and then tweak the other registers if you must.
post #4476 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post

I would start with everything at default per the manual, get a good grayscale and color and then tweak the other registers if you must.

Better would be the default numbers your wrote down before you started, since they sometimes differ from the printed manual.
You do, of course, have them somewhere safe.
post #4477 of 4822
That would be a good idea if his set had not had its Screen settings mangled by his "visitors". Now that they have been, starting from scratch would be better. The closer to midpoint your values stay, based on the excellence of your Screen settings, the flatter your grayscale response will be.

Meaning midpointing all Cutoff values and going in and retweaking the Screen controls PROPERLY before fine tuning the Cutoff, Drive and Brightness settings.

Since the Screen control settings have been mangled twice, going back to the original settings where he started this op - after they got mangled - will have very little value now. If they had stayed factory and never been touched, it would be a different story.

b
post #4478 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post


Better would be the default numbers your wrote down before you started, since they sometimes differ from the printed manual.
You do, of course, have them somewhere safe.

I did take pictures off the SM registers, I do have them somewhere, but I haven't referred to them in the longest time, I usually refer back to the Service Manual. I should print them out and put them along with Service Manual and all my Hitachi notes.
post #4479 of 4822
The service manual values will ideally be the midpoints, which would be your best starting point whenever you're starting from scratch. Which is what service manuals specialize at - starting from scratch.

Going back to which is an awful lot of unnecessary work, if your set is already very well set up from the factory.

b
post #4480 of 4822
Michael:
I wrote down every default for every register I adjusted in the SM. But like Bob said, The Repair Tech really mangled everything and left a blurry mess. Then I started putzing with it, using a lot of the ideas and methods discussed on this thread and the other Bob thread. That at least got the set back to watchable. It was even reasonably good at times. But I couldn't shake the imperfections caused by poor grayscale and who knows what else. I took another stab at it yesterday and finally got rid of the greenies. I ended up with some very wierd settings that looked extreme to me. Don't laugh now, but here is where I had to set the registers, with everything reset to factory settings and on High as Bob suggested;
G DRV= 16
R DRV= 0B
R Cut= 8F
G Cut= 7E
B Cut= 4F
SubBright=9F

Here are the ugly HCFR numbers and graphs they produced:
% Grayscale
IRE X X Y Delta E Delta xy
0 0.396 0.346 0.074 71.9 0.085
10 0.499 0.494 0.073 138.8 0.249
20 0.371 0.334 0.076 52.6 0.058
30 0.203 0.203 0.792 144.6 0.167
40 0.223 0.208 5.988 129.6 0.150
50 0.234 0.209 18.310 124.7 0.144
60 0.236 0.207 27.369 125.8 0.144
70 0.257 0.238 66.747 87.6 0.106
80 0.279 0.271 102.557 52.0 0.067
90 0.300 0.304 147.663 20.8 0.028
100 0.314 0.327 195.888 2.5 0.002

Average Gamma: 3.93, Contrast: 2664:1
RGB Levels @ 100% IRE= R-100; G-99; B-100
RGB Levels @ 25% IRE= R-100; G-100; B-100
FTL @ 100 IRE-57.2
FTL @ 25 IRE-0.231

Not pretty. But the picture looks pretty good. It's just too dark. So I am going to raise the lower registers up again tonight and see if I can keep the greenie genie out. This chart is tough to read. I'll redo it in excel so I can format it properly. It's hard to see, but there are 6 columns.

I will try to send the Graphs to your address as you suggested. Gotta go right now. The Boss of the house beckons.
post #4481 of 4822
Quick comments here, other insights emailed.
My first concern is about your meter. Which one is it, how old is it, and how has it been treated? Your set may be okay; it may be your meter that's messed up.
Your contrast is way high. FTL should be under 40.
You should have the HIGH registers back to default and be doing all your changes in STD. Your RGB levels should be adjusted at 30 and 80.
Everyone should see Leo's great new screenshots:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1032
Very inspiring, Leo.
If Hitachi could only see us now!
post #4482 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

...
Very inspiring, Leo.
If Hitachi could only see us now!

Thanks Michael, its been fun and I've learn a lot form everyone and of course from THE Jedi Master Mr. Bob!
And like you say if only Hitachi knew what it can be done to these sets... Marketing... NEW vedophile caliber TV based on proven and state of the art CRT, 2.39:1 movie ratio screen, 1080P HD 3D resolution @ 260HZ refresh rate, and latest HDMI 2.5.

These sets will probably do all these with the right electronics... what a dream!!!
post #4483 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

...
G DRV= 16
R DRV= 0B
R Cut= 8F
G Cut= 7E
B Cut= 4F
SubBright=9F

Here are the ugly HCFR numbers and graphs they produced:
% Grayscale
IRE X X Y Delta E Delta xy
0 0.396 0.346 0.074 71.9 0.085
10 0.499 0.494 0.073 138.8 0.249
20 0.371 0.334 0.076 52.6 0.058
30 0.203 0.203 0.792 144.6 0.167
40 0.223 0.208 5.988 129.6 0.150
50 0.234 0.209 18.310 124.7 0.144
60 0.236 0.207 27.369 125.8 0.144
70 0.257 0.238 66.747 87.6 0.106
80 0.279 0.271 102.557 52.0 0.067
90 0.300 0.304 147.663 20.8 0.028
100 0.314 0.327 195.888 2.5 0.002

Average Gamma: 3.93, Contrast: 2664:1
RGB Levels @ 100% IRE= R-100; G-99; B-100
RGB Levels @ 25% IRE= R-100; G-100; B-100
FTL @ 100 IRE-57.2
FTL @ 25 IRE-0.231

Not pretty. But the picture looks pretty good. It's just too dark. So I am going to raise the lower registers up again tonight and see if I can keep the greenie genie out. This chart is tough to read. I'll redo it in excel so I can format it properly. It's hard to see, but there are 6 columns.

I will try to send the Graphs to your address as you suggested. Gotta go right now. The Boss of the house beckons.

Yeeehhhheees!!! wow these are all over the place measurements. And some of these don't make any sense. These are some suggestions, and I'm sure Michael, Bob and others will agree.

Like I mentioned bring everything to default, the following are the main registers you need to bring to default or close to it:
SUB-BRT 7F (I have this one at 80)
SUBCNT 12 (I have this one at 10)

GDRV HIGH 3F
RDRV HIGH 3F
RCUT HIGH 7F
GCUT HIGH 7F
BCUT HIGH 7F

GDRV STD 50
RDRV STD 55
RCUT STD 7F
GCUT STD 7F
BCUT STD 7F

COLOR CBCR 40
COLOR STD 1F
TINT CBCR 46
TINT STD 1F

R PH CBCR 00
R BGA CBCR STD 07
R BGA CBCR HIGH 09
GY PH CBCR 02
G BGA CBCR HIGH 02
B BGA CBCR STD 04

Then in user Menu (these are very important):

Contrast 40
Brightness 50
Color 50
Tint 50
Sharpness 50

All other OFF

If you calibrate under STD you have a little more room for adjustment since you can adjust the main registers for HIGH, that do have an impact on STD and then do additional touch ups in STD, specially for color decoding.

I would measure with these settings and then start all over.

If you still have measurement all over the place I would suspect your meter like Michael mentioned.

let us know.
post #4484 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post
GDRV HIGH 3F
RDRV HIGH 3F
RCUT HIGH 7F
GCUT HIGH 7F
BCUT HIGH 7F
This is why writing down everything before you change anything is so important. These sets are adjusted (I won't say "calibrated") at the factory on high; my defaults for the above were 49, 28, 88, 7F, 95. What they are now is anybody's guess, but now it is "calibrated."

If my meter ever gets back here (I know you're out there, somewhere), he'll get it so he'll have something to compare his to. In the meantime, starting over, especially if he's happy with his current picture and if his meter may be wonky, would be fun (in a perverse sort of way) but probably not worthwhile.
post #4485 of 4822
Thanks everybody. And thanks for your feedback on the graphs via e-mail michael. For the uninitiated. I sent the graphs to Michael privately over e-mail to peruse and gag over. Needless to say. He gagged in a gentlemanly way. And offered some great advice. I actually went back in and tried some of the suggestions already. And they worked. The registers are now much closer to the defaults. And the new graphs look better. The gag factor is still there. It just doesn't have the dry heave with it anymore. Feel free to chime in on the carnage you observed Michael. I have the Eyeone LT meter. I bought it from a photographer who claimed to have used it only twice, 2 years ago. So I don't know if it is good or bad. It seems to work okay and calibrate alright. But again I don't know if it is accurate or not. I really think between old Ackroyd the repairman and me, we have done a number on the Hitachi. But my worst effort is light years better than the way Ackroyd left it.

I think I'll just wait and let the RPCRT HD "Ghostbuster" (Mr Bob), Blast all of the hobgoblins out of this set.
post #4486 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post
Yeeehhhheees!!! wow these are all over the place measurements. And some of these don't make any sense. These are some suggestions, and I'm sure Michael, Bob and others will agree.

Like I mentioned bring everything to default, the following are the main registers you need to bring to default or close to it:
SUB-BRT 7F (I have this one at 80)
SUBCNT 12 (I have this one at 10)
GDRV HIGH 3F
RDRV HIGH 3F
RCUT HIGH 7F
GCUT HIGH 7F
BCUT HIGH 7F

GDRV STD 50
RDRV STD 55
RCUT STD 7F
GCUT STD 7F
BCUT STD 7F

COLOR CBCR 40
COLOR STD 1F
TINT CBCR 46
TINT STD 1F

R PH CBCR 00
R BGA CBCR STD 07
R BGA CBCR HIGH 09
GY PH CBCR 02
G BGA CBCR HIGH 02
B BGA CBCR STD 04

Then in user Menu (these are very important):

Contrast 40
Brightness 50
Color 50
Tint 50
Sharpness 50

All other OFF

If you calibrate under STD you have a little more room for adjustment since you can adjust the main registers for HIGH, that do have an impact on STD and then do additional touch ups in STD, specially for color decoding.

I would measure with these settings and then start all over.

If you still have measurement all over the place I would suspect your meter like Michael mentioned.

let us know.
Leo:
Where do you find the areas I highlighted in the SM? I ahve been reluctant to go too deep in that Menu, because I don't want to fatally screw something up before I can get Mr Bob out here.
post #4487 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post
I have the Eyeone LT meter. I bought it from a photographer who claimed to have used it only twice, 2 years ago. So I don't know if it is good or bad. It seems to work okay and calibrate alright. But again I don't know if it is accurate or not.
Doesn't matter how often it's used; what matters is how old it is and how it was taken care of. And you can't "calibrate" it without a reference meter; the test provided by X-Rite just lets you know it's working, not necessarily that it's working properly. Mine may not be any more accurate, but if you get the same results using two different meters, then you're at least in the right ballpark. Purists consider these (relatively) inexpensive meters disposable after a couple of years. SpectaCal can provide a calibration file that works with ChromaPure. $90 for calibration (plus the cost of ChromaPure, if you're not already using it) vs. $140 for a new meter.
post #4488 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post
I ahve been reluctant to go too deep in that Menu, because I don't want to fatally screw something up before I can get Mr Bob out here.
Just write down the numbers that are there to begin with (probably the same as in the service manual, but not always). I don't think you can do anything fatal.
Stupid? Sure. Fatal? Unlikely.
Have fun.
Michael
post #4489 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Doesn't matter how often it's used; what matters is how old it is and how it was taken care of. And you can't "calibrate" it without a reference meter; the test provided by X-Rite just lets you know it's working, not necessarily that it's working properly. Mine may not be any more accurate, but if you get the same results using two different meters, then you're at least in the right ballpark. Purists consider these (relatively) inexpensive meters disposable after a couple of years. SpectaCal can provide a calibration file that works with ChromaPure. $90 for calibration (plus the cost of ChromaPure, if you're not already using it) vs. $140 for a new meter.

A new meter that could wind up being all over the map, and you'd never know.

With a SpectraCal calibration on your current meter, you'll have it delivering performance identical to that of their $25,000 reference equipment and know for sure. And I believe SC guarantees every calibration it does, for a year.

While I was attending the ISF Level II certification course last year, Joel (Silver) pointed out to me that my Eye One Pro was a little off, and recommended I get it calibrated by SpectraCal, who was right there - the main event at the Level II course. Having Jeff, SpectraCal's president, at the helm of everything mechanical, electronic and/or computer driven that went on in that course, was simply amazing.

So I did. I know my Eye One Pro will nail every calibration, now.



b
post #4490 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

So I did. I know my Eye One will nail every calibration, now.

That's your Eye One Pro, Bob; makes a difference.
Research has shown the i1s to be pretty good new. And, as I noted, the calibration file only works with their software (ChromaPure).
post #4491 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

That's your Eye One Pro, Bob; makes a difference.
Research has shown the i1s to be pretty good new. And, as I noted, the calibration file only works with their software (ChromaPure).

Thanks, Michael. Have changed it now, above. Remember, when I bought it, it was called the Eye Beamer! I don't keep up on the name changes of these things...



My analyzer system is the Colorfacts CF 6000, from Milori. It was very popular with the calibrators of that time period - esp. since the only other game in town at that time was the much more expensive Sencore - and I don't think ChromaPure was even a gleam in the eye of its inventor yet, back then. I simply let Jeff have my pod while we were still at the Level II, he sent it back later fully calibrated. He did know I was using the Milori Colorfacts, which I had brought with me to the Level II sessions. Being well over 5 years old at the time - possibly 10 - it was way off the beaten path for them, compared to what is being presently used in the field of analyzers.

My impression is that they can recalibrate any analyzer pod, no matter what the system using it.

Could be wrong, but with what SC has been able to accomplish in the last few years, with their state of the art, automated analyzer systems currently at play at SC including click and drag technology - just pinpoint where on the Minolta color chart you want your set to wind up (D6500K) and it interfaces directly with the service menu of your display and does it all for you - I don't think so...



b
post #4492 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

My impression is that they can recalibrate any analyzer pod, no matter what the system using it.

My understanding is that you get a calibration file, basically a correction matrix, that works with the software; they don't do anything to the meter. I'm sure it works well, but I'm not interested enough to buy the software and calibration package for my home hobby use. And by the time my meter gets back to me from hither and yon, it would probably need to be recalibrated/replaced anyway.
post #4493 of 4822
I received no such file, just my pod back, fully calibrated. These pods must have internal eeproms, I would think. Or mine is a cut above the cheaper ones, maybe -

b
post #4494 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post



Leo:
Where do you find the areas I highlighted in the SM? I ahve been reluctant to go too deep in that Menu, because I don't want to fatally screw something up before I can get Mr Bob out here.

To go to these registers you can go up the menu until you get to TA1360, then press "ENTER" and you can navigate up or down until you reach the desired register. Remember that for the changes to stick you need to press "ENTER".
post #4495 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Or mine is a cut above the cheaper ones, maybe -

Substantially. Like $900 vs. $150.
post #4496 of 4822
Yeah, I'm in all right...!



b
post #4497 of 4822
Is anyone else getting the HDMI shift issue after the board replacement? I think I got the board replaced 2 years ago and I didn't have an issue at all until recently when I started playing around with HTPC's. It's done it about 3 times in the last month. It'll shift to the right about half an inch or so. I have to turn the TV off and back on again to fix it.
post #4498 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Tch0rT| View Post

Is anyone else getting the HDMI shift issue after the board replacement? I think I got the board replaced 2 years ago and I didn't have an issue at all until recently when I started playing around with HTPC's. It's done it about 3 times in the last month. It'll shift to the right about half an inch or so. I have to turn the TV off and back on again to fix it.

Nope. Sounds like a fairly typical handshake issue. Try a different cable, try changing the order things turn on, try cursing at the people who come up with these "standards" in the first place.
You might also want to ask in one of the HTPC threads.
Good luck.
post #4499 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by |Tch0rT| View Post

Is anyone else getting the HDMI shift issue after the board replacement? I think I got the board replaced 2 years ago and I didn't have an issue at all until recently when I started playing around with HTPC's. It's done it about 3 times in the last month. It'll shift to the right about half an inch or so. I have to turn the TV off and back on again to fix it.

Ours has been stable ever since board replacement.

Joe
post #4500 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Nope. Sounds like a fairly typical handshake issue. Try a different cable, try changing the order things turn on, try cursing at the people who come up with these "standards" in the first place.
You might also want to ask in one of the HTPC threads.
Good luck.

I've tried 2 different PC's and 2 different HDMI cables and the same thing. I don't notice it with the PS3 but then again I don't use that much.
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