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Hitachi 51/57/65F59A CRT RPTV Tweaks Thread - Page 157

post #4681 of 4822
Those comments by me appearing to come from Dave Prazak are because I was on his computer at the time and it had signed me in as him! I'm home now, flew back today.

Yes I did find the red gun had some scheimpflug issues, but not enough for Dave to want to spring for a realignment on that. I did have to re-aim the blue and green guns tho, and that took shimming the entire gun, to change its aimed direction. That's different from shimming just the lens barrel itself, only, which is how you do a scheimpflug alignment.

The red gun on the 700 series, the blue gun on the 500 series are the sch. culprits. But that's with the Pioneers, this is a Hit thread...

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 8/30/13 at 9:02pm
post #4682 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Those comments by me appearing to come from Dave Prazak are because I was on his computer at the time and it had signed me in as him! I'm home now, flew back today.

Yes I did find the red gun had some scheimpflug issues, but not enough for Dave to want to spring for a realignment on that. I did have to re-aim the blue and green guns tho, and that took shimming the entire gun, to change its aimed direction. That's different from shimming just the lens barrel itself, only, which is how you do a scheimpflug alignment.

The red gun on the 700 series, the blue gun on the 500 series are the sch. culprits. But that's with the Pioneers, this is a Hit thread...

b
Humm. I would have to think about trying that if that is the case on mine. Sounds a bit more complicated. I guess I need to get in there and try a manual focus first and see what happens.
post #4683 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang68 View Post

Humm. I would have to think about trying that if that is the case on mine. Sounds a bit more complicated. I guess I need to get in there and try a manual focus first and see what happens.

It's not. Just be careful about the screws you loosen (the same ones you used to remove the assembly for cleaning). Then just put a washer under a corner and see what part of the grid is affected. It's one of those cases where the top left affects the bottom right, or something. Obviously, if all the corners of a crosshatch grid are in focus (for each color), they you don't need to do anything.

Michael

post #4684 of 4822
And check with Superleo as well. I believe he did sch. on his, but can't remember what model he has, may not be the same as yours.

In any case the aiming of the guns are what I did, I did not do the sch. alignment, tho I have before.
b
post #4685 of 4822
I did the sch op on my Hitachi. I only did the red and blu left the green untouched. I can say that it made the center focus and convergence a lot sharper. Made the edges harder to get right. Had to re do focus and convergence and had to compensate to get a more uniform image. Overall worth the trouble.
post #4686 of 4822

As you know, there are some who suggest focussing (either one "s" or two is okay, I checked) off-center for just that reason. Easy enough to try both and see what you prefer.

post #4687 of 4822
I did sch on the red gun before. It made the red center out very tight but did make the edges more work. However I was interested in the idea of the individual guns to sharpen up all three overall. I intend to go in today and adjust green and blue focus. They are just out slightly. I have never had a big issue with green showing up on my convergence grid and now it is. I know you generally adjust blue and red and the green goes away but this time Im having a lot more issues with getting that done. Blue and Green just seem more fuzzy while Red is good? Im not sure why that would be so. I moved the whole assembly backwards so my assumption would be that if one color was out of focus all of them would be.

Well we will see. I also detected, as Bob pointed out to be careful with, that Im not 100% in square. I need to shift the assembly just a hair. Which of course is first and then convergence and then focus. Love the tweaking;)
post #4688 of 4822
How does it make the outer areas harder to get right? These present-day HD lenses usually have built-in optical compensation for getting the edges in just as fine a focus as the middle.

Pre-HD, Sony's advice was to get the first third out from center area in perfect focus and allow a smidge of slop at the center and the rest of the slop out towards the edges. Inner third line of demarcation out from center was to be the best. That was good advice for those lenses, you might need it for yours.

These days on HD lenses, for example my Mit has an indent in the center of the lens, which I assume allows for this mechanical equalization between center and edges. I know my edges are just as much in focus as my middle is, the match between inner and outer focus is stellar and flawless.

On the finer ceiling projectors they have a second wingnut besides the master one, that does this mechanical equalization internally, inside the lens barrel. It has enough play that you could conceivably get the focus equalization between the inner and outer areas on a curved screen just as good as on a flat screen, tho I have never used it to fine tune a curved screen. Its purpose is to allow perfect edge to center focusing no matter how far away the projector is from the screen, which can be all over the map depending on screen size. That "throw distance" - from projector to screen - can affect how the inner to outer edge focuses match each other. Having that second wingnut on there allows you to truly dial it in.

Unfortunately CRT RPTVs were never designed with that level of sophistication. And of course did not cost nearly as much, either!

biggrin.gif

b
post #4689 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang68 View Post

I did sch on the red gun before. It made the red center out very tight but did make the edges more work. However I was interested in the idea of the individual guns to sharpen up all three overall. I intend to go in today and adjust green and blue focus. They are just out slightly. I have never had a big issue with green showing up on my convergence grid and now it is. I know you generally adjust blue and red and the green goes away but this time Im having a lot more issues with getting that done. Blue and Green just seem more fuzzy while Red is good? Im not sure why that would be so. I moved the whole assembly backwards so my assumption would be that if one color was out of focus all of them would be.

Well we will see. I also detected, as Bob pointed out to be careful with, that Im not 100% in square. I need to shift the assembly just a hair. Which of course is first and then convergence and then focus. Love the tweaking;)

Focus should always precede convergence, both optical and electronic focus. AND precede geometry. It should be the first thing done after the optics cleaning, in any setup operation. Then the rest.

wink.gif

And I trust you are using the Cantilever Technique to do your optical focusing? It allows you to not only dial it in to the finest focusing possible, it also allows you to know which direction it's off, which is next to impossible to know any other way.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/2/13 at 11:03am
post #4690 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Focus should always precede convergence, both optical and electronic focus. AND precede geometry. It should be the first thing done after the optics cleaning, in any setup operation. Then the rest.

wink.gif

And I trust you are using the Cantilever Technique to do your optical focusing? It allows you to not only dial it in to the finest focusing possible, it also allows you to know which direction it's off, which is next to impossible to know any other way.

b
Yes I am using the cantilever technique. I was able to get focus pretty good. Ended up having to adjust all three slightly, which makes more sense. Im not sure about even focus across the whole screen. I, and others, on these mits have had issues with the edges pre shim and post shim. I could probably get an even focus across the whole screen if I chose to sacrifice a lot of real estate of super fine focus. My red is good but one side is a little more out than the other. Nothing that bothers me much. Blue is the same. I need to schemp the blue. The red is already done.

I was able to get the screen filled up but with several issues. One is that a DVE geometry screen material will not fill the whole screen. I have usable picture surface but the DVE screens dont stretch to fill it. Im using the 1080i 16x9 aspect. So the top on the geometry shows 3.5 percent and the bottom is 0. In reality the top is the same as the bottom at 0. So if I knew of a way to stretch the pic Im thinking this may help. However that is just some crazy guess on my part. Material is not an issue. All but a sliver on the top and bottom of the screen displays usable surface for pics.

Second is that I have a replica remote that is exactly like the old remote. Design, buttons and everything. However I used the blue button to get into DCAM and to my great surprise I could not use Aspect to save the changes to ROM. Had to lose the DCAM changes and ended up doing it all in 117p. None of the sequences worked on the remote to get into DCAM. However the service menu sequence works and most of the buttons work as per the manual once in DCAM. I dont get it?

At any rate these are my future challenges. Pic is great. Grid is white all over and looks good. Focus is better too. I have never done the other Focus (electrostatic?) and was wondering what this actually accomplishes as well.
post #4691 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang68 View Post

Yes I am using the cantilever technique. I was able to get focus pretty good. Ended up having to adjust all three slightly, which makes more sense. Im not sure about even focus across the whole screen. I, and others, on these mits have had issues with the edges pre shim and post shim. I could probably get an even focus across the whole screen if I chose to sacrifice a lot of real estate of super fine focus. My red is good but one side is a little more out than the other. Nothing that bothers me much. Blue is the same. I need to schemp the blue. The red is already done.


Mit? I thought you had a Hit.

If the red is already schemped, how can it be "good but one side is a little more out than the other"? The whole point of the sch is to make both sides equal.
Quote:
I was able to get the screen filled up but with several issues. One is that a DVE geometry screen material will not fill the whole screen. I have usable picture surface but the DVE screens dont stretch to fill it. Im using the 1080i 16x9 aspect. So the top on the geometry shows 3.5 percent and the bottom is 0. In reality the top is the same as the bottom at 0.
??? If the top shows 3.5% and the bottom 0, you know it's not centered vertically. The top and bottom numbers will be the same when it's accurately balanced vertically, top to bottom.
Quote:
So if I knew of a way to stretch the pic Im thinking this may help. However that is just some crazy guess on my part. Material is not an issue. All but a sliver on the top and bottom of the screen displays usable surface for pics.
Sounds like your shim did too good a job and reduced the picture size too much. That you need to expand the pic out a bit at top and bottom, keeping in mind that if you are not symmetrical on your horizontal vs. your vertical you will get an oval whenever you actually want a circle.

If that exposes the aging footprint, take out some of your shim material and let the picture expand a bit back out towards how it used to be.
Quote:
Second is that I have a replica remote that is exactly like the old remote. Design, buttons and everything. However I used the blue button to get into DCAM and to my great surprise I could not use Aspect to save the changes to ROM. Had to lose the DCAM changes and ended up doing it all in 117p. None of the sequences worked on the remote to get into DCAM. However the service menu sequence works and most of the buttons work as per the manual once in DCAM. I dont get it?
Sounds like you have to get the official remote for your set, not a replica. when I needed one and could not get one, Michael was good enough to send me his from the East Coast, whereupon I got it back to him as quickly as possible. Don't ask him, tho, he has had trouble getting back things he's loaned out. You might try online for an official one.
Quote:
At any rate these are my future challenges. Pic is great. Grid is white all over and looks good. Focus is better too. I have never done the other Focus (electrostatic?) and was wondering what this actually accomplishes as well.

Optical is at the lenses, it's mechanical. Electrostatic is at the CRT faces themselves, the source of your picture. Having both razor sharp is essential.

Using the Cantilever Technique on grids from 480i/p DVDs - I recommend AVIA Widescreen Enhanced Circlehatch Grid - and keeping your scanrate at 480 allows you to dial in the shadows between your horizontal scanlines whether your electrostatic grid on your CRT faces is in focus yet or not. And the dashes that make up your vertical lines. When doing astigmatism correction, those dashes can help pin down where to put your magnetic rings, because they tilt in response to them. The best setting is when those tiny little dashes don't tilt but stay flat and horizontal. Among the various considerations for astig correction...

Ultimately going back and forth between the 2 types of focusing is best if needed while you have that 480i/p grid up there, even if that has to happen more than once.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/3/13 at 2:41pm
post #4692 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Mit? I thought you had a Hit.

Sorry I do have a Hit. Mind melt a little there.

If the red is already schemped, how can it be "good but one side is a little more out than the other"? The whole point of the sch is to make both sides equal.
??? If the top shows 3.5% and the bottom 0, you know it's not centered vertically. The top and bottom numbers will be the same when it's accurately balanced vertically, top to bottom.

Well originally the red was terrible on one side. After the schemp it was a lot better but not perfect. I might need to see if one more shim does the trick. If not then Im good where Im at.


Sounds like your shim did too good a job and reduced the picture size too much. That you need to expand the pic out a bit at top and bottom, keeping in mind that if you are not symmetrical on your horizontal vs. your vertical you will get an oval whenever you actually want a circle.

I only went up about 3/4 of an inch or a bit more so basing that off what others did I thought I was being conservative. However it does sound and look like that is correct. When I do the convergence patterns with the circles in all 4 corners they look pretty round. Not sure if that really says anything or not.

If that exposes the aging footprint, take out some of your shim material and let the picture expand a bit back out towards how it used to be.

Man I think your right but I loved the pic so much after the shim Im not sure I can bring it down some. OF course I might need too.

Sounds like you have to get the official remote for your set, not a replica. when I needed one and could not get one, Michael was good enough to send me his from the East Coast, whereupon I got it back to him as quickly as possible. Don't ask him, tho, he has had trouble getting back things he's loaned out. You might try online for an official one.

Sucks!

Optical is at the lenses, it's mechanical. Electrostatic is at the CRT faces themselves, the source of your picture. Having both razor sharp is essential.

Using the Cantilever Technique on grids from 480i/p DVDs - I recommend AVIA Widescreen Enhanced Circlehatch Grid - and keeping your scanrate at 480 allows you to dial in the shadows between your horizontal scanlines whether your electrostatic grid on your CRT faces is in focus yet or not. And the dashes that make up your vertical lines. When doing astigmatism correction, those dashes can help pin down where to put your magnetic rings, because they tilt in response to them. The best setting is when those tiny little dashes don't tilt but stay flat and horizontal. Among the various considerations for astig correction...

Ultimately going back and forth between the 2 types of focusing is best if needed while you have that 480i/p grid up there, even if that has to happen more than once.

I have read the manual on electrostatic focus and will do so again. However Im not sure Im up to it. Might have to be a phone consult in the near future. Im going to let the set sit for a few weeks before I go back in. I cleaned up the lenses again and watched the new Dredd again. Looks better this time around so I know I made progress. Funny how crazy we are. Most people would be amazed at the pic but here I am squeezing more out. The cool thing is that CRT allows you to squeeze a little more out. Thanks Bob.

b
post #4693 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

Sounds like you have to get the official remote for your set, not a replica. when I needed one and could not get one, Michael was good enough to send me his from the East Coast, whereupon I got it back to him as quickly as possible. Don't ask him, tho, he has had trouble getting back things he's loaned out. You might try online for an official one.
Optical is at the lenses, it's mechanical. Electrostatic is at the CRT faces themselves, the source of your picture. Having both razor sharp is essential.
 

Actually, I'd be willing, but he's around the corner from Leo, so might want to try him, first.

Electrostatic is easy. You've done it before!

http://www.avsforum.com/t/790702/hitachi-51-57-65f59a-crt-rptv-tweaks-thread/4320#post_19542382

Just be very careful not to touch the three other knobs on the focus block ("screen").

Michael

post #4694 of 4822
I'll lend you my remote Mustang... PM me if you still in need.
post #4695 of 4822
Better yet... if you feel like taking a short trip to San Antonio, we could get together and compare notes, BS, etc...
post #4696 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post

Better yet... if you feel like taking a short trip to San Antonio, we could get together and compare notes, BS, etc...
I will take you up on the SA thing soon. Right now Im busy coming and going. Thats why i wanted to get to the set this week. I would love to see your set cause its better tweaked out than mine and mine is awesome.

Im going to try that remote again tonight. Literally every other thing works on it but that. Its weird because I figured the service menu sequence would not work too if the DCAM didn't but it does. So does all the weird uses for the buttons in DCAM. Just not the ROM save and of course getting into and out of DCAM. Probably not something anyone thought of.

As for the electrostatic portion I had totally forgot about that. Now I remember it was the little adjustors below the guns that does that. I will look at that again. I will wait on the remote. I figure that if I really want to do this right I need to buy the original. Thing is that this was advertised as such but was sent as a perfect replacement. So when I got into the service menu I figured it was. I saw some remotes for sale that were original for around $40.00. This one was about $29.00 so I figured I had just found a good buy. Im thinking this old bait and switch is done all the time.
post #4697 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang68 View Post
 
Im going to try that remote again tonight. Literally every other thing works on it but that. Its weird because I figured the service menu sequence would not work too if the DCAM didn't but it does. So does all the weird uses for the buttons in DCAM. Just not the ROM save and of course getting into and out of DCAM. Probably not something anyone thought of.
 

Sometimes (okay, more often then not), even the original remote can be stubborn about such things, especially getting into and out of DCAM. ROM save should work, though, if the remote is, indeed, in DCAM mode. I use the channel up/down buttons to tell. If you're in DCAM mode, it will move the cursor around the grid. If not, you get a different grid.

Good luck.

Michael

post #4698 of 4822
Whew. Went in and redid everything. This time in the order Mr. Bob said. I actually went crazy and redid the schemp on the red gun since it was off. Electrostatic focus too. Man the pic has never been so spot on. Thats it for this week though.
post #4699 of 4822
Congrats! Noticeably better pic?


Hitachi changes their remotes and what keys do what on them, year by year. It's most frustrating - you get used to one and then you work on a different model year set and what key does what is all of sudden different. The other brands don't do that, thankfully. Mit has never changed their setup in sm, tho lots of things that were there in the first 2 years are not anymore. Still, they don't change where they appear in the sm. And they finally stopped changing the ingress code numbers, they finally realized that DIYers will get that info anyway, somewhere, so why bother changing them. They have had the same ingress code number for years now.

Same with Pioneer. You always get in with a toothpick, and the setup inside never changes. In the x30 series some things were added, but nothing changed. Hitachi has to be special...!

rolleyes.gif

So you might have a different model year remote from the model year of your set, where different keys do the things that other keys did on your model year remote.

b
post #4700 of 4822

Toothpick? Really?

On a remote, any remote, "Aspect" should be "Aspect." If it changes the aspect normally on the TV (does it, Mustang?), then it should activate "Save to ROM" in DCAM.

Of course, "should" is the operative word here.

post #4701 of 4822
Yes it does change Aspect. I imagine the issue here is getting into DCAM by the remote. Something is missing that allows me in. I have tried about 100 times now to get in using every sequence I can. No luck. The Blue Button gets me in on the set of course but the remote wont switch to DCAM mode. Or at least thats what I think is happening. Still does not exactly explain why certain buttons still work in DCAM like they should.

Popped in Avatar (my test disk of choice) and man it rocked last night. Then ran the Dredd disc back through and it was noticeably better than the last two times I ran it through. Im not saying its perfect. Its just darn good. There is so much more in that manual that seems like it could improve the set but its still over my head and some of it seems like it could wreck your set if you went in and messed up. I comes down to training and experience. Trial and Error is ok if your Edison and doing it for the first time EVER. However if someone has already did it then lean on that knowledge.
post #4702 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Toothpick? Really?

Yes. That's how you get into the service mode on a Pioneer Elite CRT.
Quote:
On a remote, any remote, "Aspect" should be "Aspect." If it changes the aspect normally on the TV (does it, Mustang?), then it should activate "Save to ROM" in DCAM.
Of course, "should" is the operative word here.

In user mode yes, Aspect should be Aspect. But on Hitachis in sm, all that changes. They don't put labels on the remotes that indicate what each button does in service mode, only in user mode. For that you really need the service manual, and that's where things change year by year. One year Aspect may do one thing, the next year Aspect may do something completely different or nothing at all, with some other button doing what Aspect used to do. You really need a road map with all the changes they give the service menu vs. the remote every year.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/5/13 at 1:13pm
post #4703 of 4822
Remote DCAM for XXF59




Rom write = Aspect (Although is the aspect button, when in DCAM mode is a different code)
post #4704 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang68 View Post
I imagine the issue here is getting into DCAM by the remote. Something is missing that allows me in. I have tried about 100 times now to get in using every sequence I can. No luck.

TV (hold) - Menu - Info

TV (hold) - 0 - 1 to get out (which turns the TV off, so you want to be careful where you're aiming for that one).

I just alternate a thousand times until (as I said) the channel up and down moves the cursor.

post #4705 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post

Remote DCAM for XXF59




Rom write = Aspect (Although is the aspect button, when in DCAM mode is a different code)

That's right, for this model year. And thanks, Leo, I hope this will match up to Mustang's set and remote.

For another model year much of this will be different.

b
post #4706 of 4822
Man I still cant get into DCAM mode on my RC. Im going to give it a rest this week. Right now the picture is absolutely stunning. When I say stunning I mean it. My wife, who usually just looks at the set and gives me the "Right honey..it looks great honey" routine was blown away. She even wanted to watch a movie on it. I am not good at screenshots or I would send some. At any rate thanks for the help. If I make this set any better I need to find a way to get inside and enjoy the action firsthand. lol
post #4707 of 4822
When you figure out how to do that, I want to know!

cool.gif

Why do you need to get into DCAM via the remote anyway? You can push the blue button to get into convergence mode and then memorize your changes, or you can do manual MF convergence in user mode and on Hitachis that usually sticks permanently until actually changed again. When I do a Hitachi, I rarely get into DCAM or sm using the RC sequence for anything. After I am in, yes. Getting there I usually just use the turn-on method for sm changes or the blue button for convergence.


Great you're getting such a fantastic picture tho! You should go over to the Don't Dump... thread and talk about it. And if your wife is moved to make comments for us - which would be welcome both here and there - that would be fantastic too. We rarely get comments from the wives. To have her say it is stunning - either here or there - that would be a milestone!

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/7/13 at 3:51pm
post #4708 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post
 
You can push the blue button to get into convergence mode and then memorize your changes,...

That's the part for which you need the remote in DCAM mode.

post #4709 of 4822
I thought the remote was already ready to send the ROM Write commands, as is. On the ones I have done you didn't need to put the remote in DCAM mode to memorize. Is this something that was added later? Does the remote have to be put into the DCAM mode to get it to send a ROM Write command?

b
post #4710 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I thought the remote was already ready to send the ROM Write commands, as is. On the ones I have done you didn't need to put the remote in DCAM mode to memorize. Is this something that was added later? Does the remote have to be put into the DCAM mode to get it to send a ROM Write command?

b
As far as I know yes. You can make the usual 117p convergence changes and save those by hitting "Done" but the remote in DCAM is the only way I know of "Rom Write" the changes while in DCAM. The biggest issue I have, and have pretty much conquered with 117p patience, is my green. IF I do the changes in DCAM using those cool little blinking dashes then I can get everything lined up so nice. Plus I can add those two extra lines on the top and bottom to tighten it up even more. IF not then I have to struggle to get it all lined up on the white lined background of 117p conv. Plus to me the 117p can cause the squiggly lines where in DCAM I can get my convergence lines straight much easier.

Keep in mind everything I said above is my Layman's explanation and not the correct tech one. As for the wife, well I will have to work on that. She's pretty game and may be nice enough to post something. I will head over to the Dont Dump thread later and post my recent struggles and successes.
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