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Hitachi 51/57/65F59A CRT RPTV Tweaks Thread - Page 158

post #4711 of 4822
Just remembered, Hitachis also "build up energy" at some of their points, and occasionally have to be "popped" - triggered out of keeping themselves un-straight. Sometimes all you have to do is hit a point next to the point you're on to accomplish that, sometimes just hitting the point in question a second time, whereupon the awkward angle snaps back into being a straight line again, just like that. Going all over the screen and doing that - even not moving any of the points, just hitting them, "popping" their aberration bubbles - releases that energy and pops the stress off of the point in question so it can respond normally again.

This along with the fact that using factory issue bold, thick bright lines in any of their grids causes only 80% of the corrections to stick, upon memorization. Used to have to converge Hitachis 3 and 4 complete times before all my corrections would stay in place after the mem process. There was a solution, tho it was not taught in any class I ever took.

Lowering the light level at the grid lines - be they in user or in sm or DCAM - was the answer, and I actually learned that you could do that here on the AVS, from you guys! The correct registers in there have to be amended to lower numbers - usually cutting them in half would do it, which is kinda convoluted since they are hexa-decimal - after which you would have nice, thin, totally usable grid lines to work with in your convergence/geometry, rather than those too thick, too bright lines that are factory issue. With nice thin, average light level grid lines - which match real video content - one pass would do it.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/8/13 at 10:54am
post #4712 of 4822
Lowering the light level at the grid lines - be they in user or in sm or DCAM - was the answer, and I actually learned that you could do that here on the AVS, from you guys! The correct registers in there have to be amended to lower numbers - usually cutting them in half would do it, which is kinda convoluted since they are hexa-decimal - after which you would have nice, thin, totally usable grid lines to work with in your convergence/geometry, rather than those too thick, too bright lines that are factory issue. With nice thin, average light level grid lines - which match real video content - one pass would do it.

b[/quote]I did that once and need to do it again. I can't remember the exact SM setting. May be Dcubrt or something like that. Anyone know? Also your right about that popping of the lines. I have had it happen several times but not this go around.
post #4713 of 4822

Yup, DCUBRT and DCUCNT.

Wow, it's been a long time.

Might be fun to start playing around in there all over again.

Nah.

;)

post #4714 of 4822
Now those 2 cover one of the phenoms - the grid in the DCAM - while another 2 cover the grid in the manual MF section, in User.

Or vice versa.

Could it be OSDCNT and OSDBRT?

b
post #4715 of 4822

That's the On Screen Display.

There is, as far as I know, only one "grid."

post #4716 of 4822
I thought that one affected the manual MF grid, which allows you to do convergence in User mode. If so it's a separate grid for being in the DCAM, but also responds very well to cutting its light level in half, allowing for superlative convergence tweaking.

Or is that some other set of registers? I seem to remember there's one set of registers for the DCAM grid and a different set for the manual MF grid.

b
post #4717 of 4822
I am going to be in Portland OR from Sept. 18 to the 24th. If any of you owners would like to get together for coffee, a brew or a meal - or just to show off your system and get some bragging rights on this and other threads I attend every day - let me know!

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/10/13 at 3:40pm
post #4718 of 4822
I will play around with the settings in Dcubrt and see which one it effects, DCAM or MF or both. Im not sure if there is a diff or not. Seems like there would be but you can never tell. I seem to remember the ONSC series of registers is the screen type brightness, such as a list of inputs ect..
post #4719 of 4822
You guys have given me invaluable tips and knowledge over the last 4-5 years. I revisited the DCUCNT registers and changed the factory setting from 5A to 4A with the Darblet 5000 off. And Viola! The White blooming problem was gone. And I did the adjustment while watching the Alabama/Texas A&M game instead of the convergence grid lines. That way I could tune the impact to exactly what I was watching in real time. The detail in the crowd scenes just popped on the screen without any of the white clipping. I had done a convergence before game time. So I checked again after the adjustment. And the convergence lines were spot on. WHen I turned the Darblet 5000 back on (Game Setting @50%) the PQ was unbeatable! Thanks for the tip/reminder. Like Michael, I think I may play around in there some more after I figure out the manual focuc thing.

Now I have a real dumb question. How do you actually manual focus the set (65F59A)? I've always done the static focus, because manual seem way too cumbersome if not impossible. Meaning...taking off the screen...unlocking the screws...Putting the screen back on...and ???. How do you adjust if the screen is back on. And if it is off...how do you know if what you're doing is good or bad? I know there must be a simple answer to this. So help anyone.
post #4720 of 4822

You don't need to take off the screen. If you just remove the front bezels (all three of them), you can reach inside to the wingnut on each lens that holds it in position. I use the DCAM grid and just look at the two horizontal bars in the middle, which I just change to the color I'm adjusting. I'm sure there are better ways, but this is easy and has worked (as recently as yesterday) for me.

Michael

post #4721 of 4822
I have always taken off the screen. In my set 51" I cant reach up and into that area. Im not sure what bezel your talking about. I will need to go look again. If not I use the cantilever technique and that does require taking the screws out of the screen so you can manipulate the screen to determine manual focus. It doesn't bother me to do that because Im already in there doing something else so taking off and putting on the screen, minus screws, is no big deal.

BTW I cut down the grid line brightness using Dcubrt and man that made adjusting convergence so much better and accurate. I can't see that this effects any other setting. Is this right? It seems only to adjust those grid lines.
post #4722 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mustang68 View Post
It doesn't bother me to do that because Im already in there doing something else so taking off and putting on the screen, minus screws, is no big deal.

Is this right? It seems only to adjust those grid lines.

Great. Then keep doing it that way.

 

That's correct.

post #4723 of 4822
The Cantilever Technique does not involve removing the screen, only tiliting it on one of its horizontal - top or bottom - edges, depending on which is most convenient. Once set it stays that way and all convergence from there on in is set with that optical focusing in place exactly where you set it, on all 3 lenses. If you ever change the optical focusing again, you have to redo the convergence on that color, so it's critical to get it right the first time and be able to leave it alone from then on. I do it first thing after the optics cleaning and then I can double check it in a year or 2 without changing anything. It usually needs no correction after that in my calibrations, no matter how many years later.

See my YouTube video for more on the CT.

b
post #4724 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

You don't need to take off the screen. If you just remove the front bezels (all three of them), you can reach inside to the wingnut on each lens that holds it in position. I use the DCAM grid and just look at the two horizontal bars in the middle, which I just change to the color I'm adjusting. I'm sure there are better ways, but this is easy and has worked (as recently as yesterday) for me.
Michael

Thanks Michael & everyone else. How exactly do I remove the bezel without removing the screen? As far as I can determine it is all one connected piece in the 65 inch model. And it has sensors to the sides, top and bottom that are very easy to pull loose. That screen is big and heavy. I would hate to drop it and yank all of those screen sensors apart. Are you suggesting pulling the screen slightly forward to making the adjustment? Or sliding your arm in from the side or bottom (blind adjustment)? Keep in mind...I have big beefy linebacker arms...albeit flabby as hail these days.

Bob: I will check out the cantilever technique on your website to see if that will work. Even though It seems like I would have the same hurdles to overcome. The screen sets and slides in from the top and sides with no room, as far as I can see, to hinge forward & backwards. That's why I have never bothered with manual focus. It seemed like Hitachi made it possible to do with the wingnuts. But impossible to do from a practical standpoint. Or I must be missing something really simple.
post #4725 of 4822

These are the three "bezels" I'm talking about:

 

 

 

This is the diagram from the manual about the wing nuts:

 

They face towards the front of the set, so they're easy to reach.

 

Sorry I can't get photos, but my set's back together again and, much as I love you, I'm not going to take it apart again. ;)

post #4726 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

These are the three "bezels" I'm talking about:





This is the diagram from the manual about the wing nuts:



They face towards the front of the set, so they're easy to reach.

Sorry I can't get photos, but my set's back together again and, much as I love you, I'm not going to take it apart again. wink.gif

Thanks Mike:
The love flows both ways "BRUTHER" (as Hulk Hogan would say.biggrin.gif I've seen that panel. But never taken it off. I knew it had to be something simple like that. "The best way to hide the obvious is wide open in full public view". An appropriate quote from Prescott Bush in this case. I'll try it this week and let you know how it works.
post #4727 of 4822

Don't you have to remove them to remove the screen? At least you do on the 57.

Just be careful not to strip them putting them back in.

post #4728 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by LastButNotLeast View Post

Don't you have to remove them to remove the screen? At least you do on the 57.
Just be careful not to strip them putting them back in.

Nope. On the 65"er you can remove the screen And unplug the screen cables from the circuit board without removing that panel/bezel. I have never removed it for any cleaning or adjustments. That's why it was not obvious to me that an opening was behind it. I hope its big enough for my paw and arm. Or it will be an impossibility unless I can rig some kind of screen lever system..
post #4729 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

Nope. On the 65"er you can remove the screen And unplug the screen cables from the circuit board without removing that panel/bezel. I have never removed it for any cleaning or adjustments. That's why it was not obvious to me that an opening was behind it. I hope its big enough for my paw and arm. Or it will be an impossibility unless I can rig some kind of screen lever system..

Theres only one bezel in the front of the 51. The other two or molded in and are part of the front panel that just pulls off. Its all for looks. There is no way my hand could fit in there and get to them even if I could see all three, much less make an accurate adjustment.

As far as the CT I will look at it. However I just push in the screen like the CT and then pull off the screen and make the adjustment. My screen will hinge at the bottom but its not a real hinge. Its just extra play and Im not going to take the chance and break something. I just take it off and set it down on my sofa, make the adjustment and put it back on. Safer to me that way. 51 screens are not that big and heavy.
post #4730 of 4822
For the CT to be 100% effective you need to push in on the screen and pull out on the screen. It doesn't need to be a real hinge at the bottom, just needs play at the far edge, away from the hinging point. The amount in or out from center of screen will be exactly half the amount of in and out at the far edge, the edge away from the hinging point. A couple inches in each direction usually do it out at the farthest away edge of the screen from the hinging point. A couple inches out at the farthest away edge of the screen from the hinging point usually does it for me, and pushing in lightly in the center of the screen, usually no more than an inch in. Watching for the shadow between one scanline and another in the center of the screen is what I do, and it's always on 480, not 1080.

But you can't just push in then take the screen off make the adj. then put the screen back on, unless that's the only direction you need to work with and you know it. Part of the CT is to nail down which direction you need to work on. Both out and in are critical in establishing that.

BTW, I completely remove my screens to make adjustments too, whenever I do the CT.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/16/13 at 4:33pm
post #4731 of 4822
I'm starting to get a wee bit nervous about attempting a manual focus any way other than taking that bezel off like Michael did it. I just don't see how you can tell whether what you are adjusting is improving or degrading focus without actually seeing what you are doing. I get how a seasoned pro like Bob can do it with ease. But I think I will acknowledge my limitations on that one. It has all of the potential of destroying everything I've done so far, if I somehow rip those screen cables out from the constant on/off process. Have any of you ever tweaked a process to what you thought was absolutely perfect? You were 100% happy with it. But you tried one last mysterious tweak to attempt to make "perfect" better. And you waded into it only to demolish all of your hard work. Maybe even to the point of having to buy something entirely new? That's how I'm beginning to view this tweak. I'm not even sure that manual focus isn't spot on right now. Because I've never touched it. And the picture sure looks great. So Michael, I'll get my flashlight and see how easy your bezel method is. Or If that is too clumsy, I'll leave good enough alone.
post #4732 of 4822
I am always here for phone consultation to keep you on the straight and narrow, and you and your machine safe. Many here have gotten me on the phone for highly critical operations, Michael among them. It's not expensive as these things go, and most assuredly a lot less expensive than going new! And you get to stay with CRT, which is its own reward.

wink.gif

And BTW, I always see what I am doing. I know exactly the effect on everything I do on the manual focusing op, via the CT. The CT verifies that I am dialed in perfectly, even tho the dialing in does not happen at the same time as the doublecheck part of the op.

I don't see how you can do what you want to do by removing your screen! Yes for the adjusting part, but sounds like you're removing it at other points too, and I just don't see why you would be doing that. Sounds like guess work to me. My methods don't include any guess work at all. They provide powerful checks and balances and double - and triple if you wish - checks to make sure that when you finally call that op quits, you know it's the best it can be. And you can move to the next op, that builds on this op, with confidence. You'll know you won't have to do that op over again later, destroying all your fine work in the op that followed it.

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/16/13 at 9:22pm
post #4733 of 4822
Here's how I do it...

With the screen on, with the two center screen screws on top on, all the other ones off.
Project an image or you can do it with the grid.
Turn on one color at a time and through the cavity lightly loosen the wing nut of the color you are adjusting, just enough that can be moved.
Push on the screen slightly to see if it goes out of focus, or if focus improves -- adjust if necessary
Grab the bottom of the screen from its frame and pull it lightly -- adjust if necessary

Repeat several times until you don't have to adjust -- go to next color.

BTW this is Mr. Bob's Schumeflag (?) CANTILEVER TECHNIQUE op smile.gif


Edited by superleo - 9/17/13 at 12:50pm
post #4734 of 4822
Actually Leo, what you have described is the Cantilever Technique, where you are cantilevering at the top rather than the bottom. And I must admit that cantilevering is not strictly correct because technically there's nothing on the other side of that hinge point. I could have called it the "Hinging Technique" and been a bit more correct, but I don't think that would have sounded nearly as fancy...!

biggrin.gif 

The only time you're really cantilevering is when the screen is set onto the bulkhead of the set in the front and falls into pre-notched spaces on the sides, where it sits perfectly positioned. That's how my Mit is. To do the CT on a screen like that you have to lift it enough to get out of those notches and then pivot the screen at the top, which is now elevated a bit. At that point you are truly cantilevering at the hinge point that forms by the screen hitting that top edge a bit in from the top.

But the effect is the same. What counts is what's happening in the center of the view screen.

The CT is strictly for the overall optical focusing.


The Scheimpflug op, OTOH, changes the angle of the lens if needed, to make the focusing equal all around, as nothing in there is actually parallel. The screen is not parallel to the mirror, which is not parallel to the CRT face, and the CRT face is definitely not parallel to the view screen or anything else... That's why the angle of the lens barrel is so critical and can't be measured for absolute parallel status. There's nothing in there that's parallel to anything else, to measure to.


wink.gif

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/17/13 at 9:21am
post #4735 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I am always here for phone consultation to keep you on the straight and narrow, and you and your machine safe. Many here have gotten me on the phone for highly critical operations, Michael among them. It's not expensive as these things go, and most assuredly a lot less expensive than going new! And you get to stay with CRT, which is its own reward.

wink.gif

And BTW, I always see what I am doing. I know exactly the effect on everything I do on the manual focusing op, via the CT. The CT verifies that I am dialed in perfectly, even tho the dialing in does not happen at the same time as the doublecheck part of the op.

I don't see how you can do what you want to do by removing your screen! Yes for the adjusting part, but sounds like you're removing it at other points too, and I just don't see why you would be doing that. Sounds like guess work to me. My methods don't include any guess work at all. They provide powerful checks and balances and double - and triple if you wish - checks to make sure that when you finally call that op quits, you know it's the best it can be. And you can move to the next op, that builds on this op, with confidence. You'll know you won't have to do that op over again later, destroying all your fine work in the op that followed it.

b

Bob:
I will take you up on this kind offer if the Michael/Superleo approach looks more challenging. And more than I want to take on (most likely). I think you may have misunderstood me on the screen. I only remove it to clean the inner surfaces and lenses. I still haven't blackened anything in there yet. But I hate taking that thing off. It is big, awkward and risky with those thin wires all along the sides of it.

Question: Do you have capability to do a Skype consult from PC-PC? Because I have a Laptop with Skype that I could setup on the couch facing the TV. That way you could at least see what I am doing as you guide me through it.
post #4736 of 4822
Yes. That would be fun. My new laptop has a built-in cam and of course so does my phone -

b
post #4737 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrelbelly View Post

 But I hate taking that thing off. It is big, awkward and risky with those thin wires all along the sides of it.
 

Those thin wires are for the Magic Focus sensors (see, Bob, I do pay attention), so they are of no consequence, anyway. I pulled them all out of mine.

Not that I suggest you do that, just don't worry about them.

But yes, it's big and awkward.

post #4738 of 4822
I agree with Michael. Pull the damn things out! They are worthless if you are a videophile.

tongue.gif

However they do plug into the set elsewhere, so unplugging them and just draping them away from being a nuisance might be easier. Do whatever is easiest, including unplugging them at one end, leaving them there and just cutting their wires off at the other end, at the sensors. That's what I would do.

wink.gif

b
Edited by Mr Bob - 9/18/13 at 9:59am
post #4739 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Bob View Post

I agree with Michael. Pull the damn things out! They are worthless if you are a videophile.

tongue.gif

However they do plug into the set elsewhere, so unplugging them and just draping them away from being a nuisance might be easier. Do whatever is easiest, including unplugging them at one end, leaving them there and just cutting their wires off at the other end, at the sensors. That's what I would do.

wink.gif

b

Bob: I haven't had a chance to try the Michael/Superleo method yet. I'll give that bezel a look over the weekend. And if I don't feel comfortable with it...I'll give you a call for a "Skype consult" on deep Optic cleaning, Manual focus, and Grayscale.
post #4740 of 4822
Quote:
Originally Posted by superleo View Post

Here's how I do it...

With the screen on, with the two center screen screws on top on, all the other ones off.
Project an image or you can do it with the grid.
Turn on one color at a time and through the cavity lightly loosen the wing nut of the color you are adjusting, just enough that can be moved.
Push on the screen slightly to see if it goes out of focus, or if focus improves -- adjust if necessary
Grab the bottom of the screen from its frame and pull it lightly -- adjust if necessary

Repeat several times until you don't have to adjust -- go to next color.

BTW this is Mr. Bob's Schumeflag (?) CANTILEVER TECHNIQUE op smile.gif

Humm maybe Im not articulating it well enough. I do it the same way minus leaving the screws in. I just tilt it without the screws and it never falls out due to the pressure applied by my hands. Nowdays the focus comes in when I push in so pulling it out is not really necessary. However when I go to make the adjustment I take it all the way off. Then put it back on and do it again if necessary. I just dont like bending it up so much to get myself in there and do the adjustments which for me takes getting my head in there to see what im doing.
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