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SPECIFICATIONS [ONLY] for Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD [format neutral]

post #1 of 56
Thread Starter 
Like other audiovideophiles, the explosion of high definition technologies and content has piqued my interest in the hi-def formats of Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD. Unfortunately, wading through countless web pages, blogs, forum threads, and fan sites leads to contradictory and mis-information in regard to the technical aspects of the hi-def formats. So this thread is intended to present only specifications for Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD, gained from official sources and industry experts.



Blu-ray Disc

Disc capacities: single layer 25GB, dual layer 50GB

Mandatory decoding support

video resolutions, fields(i), frames(p):
1920x1080x59.94i, 1920x1080x50i, 1920x1080x24p, 1920x1080x23.976p
1440x1080x59.94i, 1440x1080x50i, 1440x1080x24p, 1440x1080x23.976p
1280x720x59.94p, 1280x720x50p, 1280x720x24p, 1280x720x23.976p

video codecs: MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC, SMPTE VC-1 (40 Mbps max all video codecs)

audio codecs: Dolby Digital (DD 5.1 channels, 640 kbps max), DTS Coherent Acoustics (DTS 5.1, 1.509 Mbps max), Linear pulse code modulation (LPCM, lossless)

combined audio/video/misc bit rate: 48 Mbps max



HD DVD

disc capacities: single layer 15GB, dual layer 30GB

Mandatory decoding support

video resolutions, fields(i), frames(p):
1920x1080x59.94i, 1920x1080x50i, 1920x1080x29.97p, 1920x1080x25p, 1920x1080x23.976p
1440x1080x59.94i, 1440x1080x50i, 1440x1080x29.97p, 1440x1080x25p, 1440x1080x23.976p
1280x1080x59.94i, 1280x1080x50i, 1280x1080x29.97p, 1280x1080x25p, 1280x1080x23.976p
960x1080x59.94i, 960x1080x50i, 960x1080x29.97p, 960x1080x25p, 960x1080x23.976p
1280x720x59.94p, 1280x720x50p, 1280x720x25p, 1280x720x23.976p

video codecs: MPEG-2, MPEG-4 AVC, SMPTE VC-1 (29.40 Mbps max all video codecs)

audio codecs: Dolby Digital (DD 5.1 channels, 504 kbps max), Dolby Digital Plus (DD+ 7.1 channels, 3 Mbps max), Dolby TrueHD (TrueHD 2 channels, 18 Mbps max, lossless), DTS Coherent Acoustics (DTS 5.1, 1.509 Mbps max), MPEG Audio, Linear pulse code modulation (LPCM, lossless)

combined audio/video/misc bit rate: 30.24 Mbps max



This thread will be updated as more official information becomes available and expert information is contributed.

Official sources:

http://www.dolby.com/assets/pdf/tech...whitepaper.pdf
http://www.dtsonline.com/media/DTS-HD_WhitePaper.pdf
http://www.dvdforum.org/images/HDDVD..._Paper_1-0.pdf
http://www.dvdforum.org/images/Forum...iversal_24.pdf
http://www.dvdfllc.co.jp/hd_dvd/hd_what.html
http://www.thelookandsoundofperfect.com/
http://www.tacp.toshiba.com/hddvd/
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/Section-1...aqs/Index.html
http://www.sonypictures.com/homevideo/bluray/

update: Jan 21, 2007
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/assets/do...2955-13403.pdf
http://www.dvdforum.org/images/DVD_F...epaper-JPN.pdf

update: Jan 25, 2007
insider information
post #2 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellokeith View Post

Bluray: combined user bit rate: 54 Mbps max
HD DVD:combined user bit rate: 32.4 Mbps max

Bluray max transfer rate :54Mbps(1.5x) max AV combine rate is 48Mbps, Max video rate 40Mbps

HD DVD max transfer rate: 36Mbps, max AV combine rate is 30Mbps, max video rate is 29.74Mbps
post #3 of 56
Thread Starter 
Oh and please provide a source for information posted.
post #4 of 56
Here are some other bits for HD DVD:

1. Mandatory secondary video decoder for Picture in Picture support.

2. Mandatory persistent storage for bookmarks, application storage, digital downloads, etc. Minimum of 128 Mbytes required.

3. Mandatory networking connection with support for streaming and digital downloads.

4. Support for video from secondary storage at up to 15 mbit/sec. Said video can play concurrently with the primary video.

5. Interactivity: based on popular web standards such as XML, SMIL, ECMAscript.

6. Support for combo discs which provide backward compatibility with existing players. Support for HD DVD-30 and DVD-9 in the same disc. Discs can be made with all the layers on one side, or on both (the so called flippers). Combo discs with all the layers on the same side have only been shown with three layers (HD DVD-30/DVD-4.5, HD DVD-15/DVD-9). Flippers are available in HD DVD-30/DVD-9 for full capacity in both formats.

7. Recording depth at the same 0.6mm as current DVDs, making it possible to have replication lines which can produce both DVDs and HD DVDs. Possible to upgrade existing DVD lines to produce HD DVDs for little cost (~$US150,000 as compared to > $US1,000,000 for new line).

8. True global format with no region coding. Discs and players can be freely mixed from any region in the world. There is a working group studying the possibility of adding some form of region coding to HD DVD specs but even if one is approved, it would not affect players and discs in market today which are region free.

9. Easy and efficient to manufacture dual-layer discs due to similarity to DVD process.

10. There is probably a tenth one I can't think of .
post #5 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Here are some other bits for HD DVD:

1. Mandatory secondary video decoder for Picture in Picture support.

2. Mandatory persistent storage for bookmarks, application storage, digital downloads, etc. Minimum of 128 Mbytes required.

3. Mandatory networking connection with support for streaming and digital downloads.

4. Support for video from secondary storage at up to 15 mbit/sec. Said video can play concurrently with the primary video.

5. Interactivity: based on popular web standards such as XML, SMIL, ECMAscript.

6. Support for combo discs which provide backward compatibility with existing players. Support for HD DVD-30 and DVD-9 in the same disc. Discs can be made with all the layers on one side, or on both (the so called flippers).

7. Recording depth at the same 0.6mm as current DVDs, making it possible to have replication lines which can produce both DVDs and HD DVDs. Possible to upgrade existing DVD lines to produce HD DVDs for little cost (~$US150,000 as compared to > $US1,000,000 for new line).

8. True global format with no region coding. Discs and players can be freely mixed from any region in the world.

9. Easy and efficient to manufacture dual-layer discs due to similarity to DVD process.

10. There is probably a tenth one I can't think of .

Do you know of any "upgraded" DVD lines that are in current use for production of any major studios (Warner, Paramount, Universal) HD-DVD discs at the current time ?

b2b
post #6 of 56
OP is trying to gather specifications, not draw arguments. As such, I won't engage with you b2b on that topic. Feel free to ask that question elsewhere. For now, upgrdability of DVD to HD DVD is one of the features of the specifications and design of HD DVD.
post #7 of 56
Perhaps the specs can be split into two categories, one for specs that relate to basic audio/video quality, and another for convenience features.
post #8 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Here are some other bits for HD DVD:

1. Mandatory secondary video decoder for Picture in Picture support.

2. Mandatory persistent storage for bookmarks, application storage, digital downloads, etc. Minimum of 128 Mbytes required.

3. Mandatory networking connection with support for streaming and digital downloads.

4. Support for video from secondary storage at up to 15 mbit/sec. Said video can play concurrently with the primary video.

5. Interactivity: based on popular web standards such as XML, SMIL, ECMAscript.

6. Support for combo discs which provide backward compatibility with existing players. Support for HD DVD-30 and DVD-9 in the same disc. Discs can be made with all the layers on one side, or on both (the so called flippers).

7. Recording depth at the same 0.6mm as current DVDs, making it possible to have replication lines which can produce both DVDs and HD DVDs. Possible to upgrade existing DVD lines to produce HD DVDs for little cost (~$US150,000 as compared to > $US1,000,000 for new line).

8. True global format with no region coding. Discs and players can be freely mixed from any region in the world.

9. Easy and efficient to manufacture dual-layer discs due to similarity to DVD process.

10. There is probably a tenth one I can't think of .

Those are not "high definition specifications for Blu-ray Disc and HD DVD.
post #9 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

6. Support for combo discs which provide backward compatibility with existing players. Support for HD DVD-30 and DVD-9 in the same disc. Discs can be made with all the layers on one side, or on both (the so called flippers).

This sure makes it look like you are saying that an HD DVD-30 and DVD-9 can be made with all layers on one side. Is that your claim? And if so, is it in the DVD spec with current players capable of player these 4 layer discs, or are you just saying that it is possible (much like 100GB BDs are possible)?

--Darin
post #10 of 56
post clean up:

please don't let this become contentious....
post #11 of 56
Quote:


1. By June '07 PiP will also be mandatory.

Its not now for Blu-ray but Amirm was posting just the HD DVD side, feel free to add the Blu-ray anticipated specs.

Quote:


2. By June 07 persistent flash will also be mandatory

same as above, with the key factor is that all HD DVD players can do 1 and 2 now, not in the future. That also makes the feature more likely to be used because of the higher common standard.

Quote:


3. Who the f*** cares, I for one will never connect my DVD player to the internet for privacy reasons

* sigh*

Many people do and will in the future if they can be convinced that there is value in it for expanded content and free goodies and increased interactivity and fresh content , even above what is stored on the disc.

Quote:


4. Leaving just 15Mbit for primary video, great.

No that's in addition to the disc mux rate. If a Pip was running from a network or secondary storage device, it would in fact be in addition (not subtracted) from the primary video rate.

Quote:


5. Interactivilty based on one of the the most widely used scripting language and also incredibly powerful, without any sort of legacy support, Java.

Tougher to program than a scripting language like HDi, which is already showing up in titles, right now, and is currently getting better results

Quote:


6. Even on AVSF the most rabidly pro-HD DVD forum they compalain about combo flippers, great advanteage their, raising the prices fro something most people don't really want.

Prices are market driven, and currently in flux. The manufacturing cost is pennies versus the actual sale price, so consumer costs may come down. Still a lot less than the real cost of BD replication in all probability.

Quote:


7. Very backwards thinking there.

Replication process being similar to DVDs is a fact. The physical structure of the disc except for the data layer is the same. Even if no production lines have been upgraded, it is reasonable to believe that they can be if demand is there. It is a fact that new HD DVD capable lines can easily be switched between HD DVD and DVD production while Blu-ray lines cannot be switched back and forth to DVD production.

Quote:


8. Really that is why we are hearing about region coding being introduced soon. Please don't lie to us Amir.

Its under study for HD DVD, but may never be used. It is in place for Blu-ray although Sony has stated that it should only apply for 12 months on SPHE releases.

Quote:


9. Good point, but again backwards thinking to support legacy processes which max out at 51GB, than newer processes which max out at 200GB.

But who may need 200 GB when HDD and flash memory and faster bandwidth may be available in the future. The extra data storage capability is not free and comes at a significant transition cost and replication premium. All in all HD DVD may be a better engineering solution to solve the problem, faster and more effectively, than 50GB in search of a problem.

Quote:


10. I can't think of one either!

How about HD DVD using 30GB and VC-1 on virtually all of its releases, therefore using its space and bandwidth more effectively than using the older MPEG-2 codec and LPCM.

Or how HD DVD players are currently on the market at $199 (Xbox 360 add on) , $499 (A1 A2), $599 ( A20), $799 (XA1) $999 (XA2) price points. Most are less expensive than their Blu-ray counterparts.

How about all HD DVD players have currently DVD upconversion, including the Reon Silicon Optix HQv processing in the HD XA2.

Quote:


I am not bashing MS or HD DVD, but I am just trying to dispel a bit of professionally (very well done in fact, I myself would be proud of this effort!) done misinformation.

Amirm just gave the HD DVD side
post #12 of 56
Geez,


This had the potential to be a nice thread for supporters of both formats. Any chance the mods can clean up all the sniping *
post #13 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellokeith View Post

This thread will be updated as more official information becomes available and expert information is contributed.

Just to point this out but both HD formats support VC-1, which is a SMPTE standard. The maximum AV bit rate for HD DVD is 30.24 Mbps which CJPlay posted about, can be seen in these HD DVD articles, and can be seen on this website. Some of those articles also list 29.4 Mbps as the maximum video bit rate for HD DVD. Also Blu-ray does support LPCM and its maximum AV bit rate is 48 Mbps, which can be seen in the Blu-ray white paper.

Also this information came from various insider posts on this forum and not all of it can be proven, but personally I believe this information is accurate. There is one Blu-ray spec and four profiles in it including an audio only profile. Excluding the audio profile there are three profiles for video playback. BD-Video 1.0 is allowed until June of 2007 after which Blu-ray players must either be BD-Video 1.1 or BD-Live. For the sake of comparison I will include the requirements for HD DVD as well:

HD DVD:

128 MB of persistent memory required
SD PiP decoding required
secondary audio decoding required
internet support required

BD-Video 1.0 (allowed until June of 2007):

64 KB of persistent memory required
no SD/HD PiP decoding required
no secondary audio decoding required
no internet support required

BD-Video 1.1:

256 MB of persistent memory required
SD/HD PiP support required
secondary audio decoding required
no internet support required

BD-Live:

1 GB of persistent memory required
SD/HD PiP support required
secondary audio decoding required
internet support required


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

4. Support for video from secondary storage at up to 15 mbit/sec. Said video can play concurrently with the primary video.

That feature of HD DVD is optional. Not saying that is a bad thing just saying that you really should remember that next time you talk about BD-Live.
post #14 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

That feature of HD DVD is optional.

No it is not. It is mandatory. This is how we ran our demos at CES on Gen 1 Toshiba players. We downloaded content to secondary storage and ran it on both A1 and A2 players.
post #15 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

This sure makes it look like you are saying that an HD DVD-30 and DVD-9 can be made with all layers on one side. Is that your claim? And if so, is it in the DVD spec with current players capable of player these 4 layer discs, or are you just saying that it is possible (much like 100GB BDs are possible)?

--Darin

Thanks Darin. Good point and I made the edits to make it more clear that only three layer combos have been proposed, not four. Please let me know if it is still ambiguous.
post #16 of 56
I also added the note about region coding discussions in DVD Forum.
post #17 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No it is not. It is mandatory. This is how we ran our demos at CES on Gen 1 Toshiba players. We downloaded content to secondary storage and ran it on both A1 and A2 players.

I know that reading from persistent storage it is a mandatory feature in HD DVD. What I was referring to was Enhanced Video decoding. Amir, it was a bit tricky of you to mention that HD DVD players could read video at up to 15 Mbps to display concurrently with the primary video. That would depend on the HD DVD player supporting an Enhanced Video decoder. After all a Standard Video secondary decoder is mandatory for HD DVD but an Enhanced Video secondary decoder is optional. As such you mentioned a mandatory feature of HD DVD but also mentioned a bitrate from an optional feature of HD DVD.

For those curious listed below is the difference between the Standard Video secondary decoder and the Enhanced Video secondary decoder for HD DVD. I got the values from the original 1.0 version of the HD DVD Video Guidelines. The revised document can be downloaded here but sometime in August they apparently decided to delate the actual tables and to instead only provide a reference to them. A bit of a strange decision considering they had provided the tables for over half a year in a public document.

Standard Video secondary decoder (mandatory)

MPEG-2
1.8 Megabits buffer
3 Mbps average bitrate
6 Mbps peak bitrate

MPEG-4 AVC
2 Megabits buffer
2 Mbps average bitrate
4 Mbps peak bitrate

VC-1
2 Megabits buffer
2 Mbps average bitrate
4 Mbps peak bitrate

Enhanced Video secondary decoder (optional)

All Video Codecs
7.5 Megabits buffer
8 Mbps average bitrate
15 Mbps peak bitrate
post #18 of 56
Quote:


Enhanced Video secondary decoder (optional)

All Video Codecs
7.5 Megabits buffer
8 Mbps average bitrate
15 Mbps peak bitrate

All HD DVD players to date support this capability including the Xbox add on.

Has the official guideline been changed?
post #19 of 56
Wow. I feel really bad for the OP. All he asked was for specs on both sides. I don't believe the commentary and once again constant challenging of an insider was what the OP was looking for.
post #20 of 56
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Just to point this out but both HD formats support VC-1, which is a SMPTE standard. The maximum AV bit rate for HD DVD is 30.24 Mbps which CJPlay posted about, can be seen in these HD DVD articles, and can be seen on this website. Some of those articles also list 29.4 Mbps as the maximum video bit rate for HD DVD. Also Blu-ray does support LPCM and its maximum AV bit rate is 48 Mbps, which can be seen in the Blu-ray white paper.


Richard,

Thanks for the info. Neither side tries to makes it very clear about the differences between max user bit rate, maximum video bit rate, and maximum video+audio (mux) bit rate. If you could list these for me (with some math even?), that would help.

Also notice that 1080p24 is the only official fully-described resolution/type/fps I could find for either format. Both mention 1080i and 720p, but do not mention fps.

Fortunately, at least both DTS and Dolby are forthcoming about mandatory/optional codecs and their max bit rates/channels support in each format.

I am planning on putting optional information under each format, but "optional" can stray far from de facto or normative or standard practice, and some of it may not be beneficial to the spirit of fairness in comparison.
post #21 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

All HD DVD players to date support this capability including the Xbox add on.

How do you know that? One of the HD DVD insiders guessed at what HD DVD players might support it, but there is a world of difference between a guess and a fact. Also his statement against HD PiP, along with past statements against HD PiP by Amir, would in my opinion indicate that HD DVD players are not being designed with an Enhanced Video secondary decoder. After all you don't put something down if you are planning to support it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

Has the official guideline been changed?

If you are referring to the HD DVD Video Guidelines the current revision of it has a list of changes made to it after page 36.
post #22 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by hellokeith View Post

Richard,

Thanks for the info. Neither side tries to makes it very clear about the differences between max user bit rate, maximum video bit rate, and maximum video+audio (mux) bit rate. If you could list these for me (with some math even?), that would help.

I will try. Note that the maximum data transfer rate for the two formats doesn't really matter since the AV bit rate (video, audio, and interactivity) is what the HD players are actually required to read at.

Blu-ray Video specs
Maximum Transfer rate: 54 Mbps
Maximum AV bit rate: 48 Mbps
Maximum Video bit rate: 40 Mbps

HD DVD Video specs
Maximum Transfer rate: 36.55 Mbps
Maximum AV bit rate: 30.24 Mbps
Maximum Video bit rate: 29.4 Mbps


Quote:
Originally Posted by hellokeith View Post

Also notice that 1080p24 is the only official fully-described resolution/type/fps I could find for either format. Both mention 1080i and 720p, but do not mention fps.

Here are the lists of resolutions found in the specs of the two formats:

The BD-Video specs:

1920x1080x59.94-i, 50-i (16:9)
1920x1080x24-p, 23.976-p (16:9)
1440x1080x59.94-i, 50-i (16:9) MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only
1440x1080x24-p, 23.976-p (16:9) MPEG-4 AVC / SMPTE VC-1 only
1280x720x59.94-p, 50-p (16:9)
1280x720x24-p, 23.976-p (16:9)
720x480x59.94-i (4:3/16:9)
720x576x50-i (4:3/16:9)

The HD DVD specs:

Source picture resolutions, frame rates, and aspect ratios for 60 Hz Regions:
(Horizontal, Vertical, Encoded Frame Rate, Aspect Ratio)
1920 1080 29.97 (*Note 1) 16:9
1440 1080 29.97 (*Note 1) 16:9
1280 1080 29.97 (*Note 1) 16:9
960 1080 29.97 (*Note 1) 16:9
1280 720 59.94 (*Note 2) 16:9
720 480 59.94 (*Note 2) 16:9
704 480 59.94 (*Note 2) 16:9
720 480 29.97 (*Note 1) 16:9/4:3
704 480 29.97 (*Note 1) 16:9/4:3
544 480 29.97 (*Note 1) 16:9/4:3
480 480 29.97 (*Note 1) 16:9/4:3
352 480 29.97 (*Note 1) 16:9/4:3
352 240 29.97 (*Note 1) 16:9/4:3

*Note 1: 59.94i, 29.97p, and 23.976p with 3:2 pull-down
*Note 2: 59.94p and 23.976p with 3:2 pull-down


Quote:
Originally Posted by hellokeith View Post

I am planning on putting optional information under each format, but "optional" can stray far from de facto or normative or standard practice, and some of it may not be beneficial to the spirit of fairness in comparison.

I understand, but in terms of the Blu-ray profiles the BD-Video 1.1 profile will be the minimum that is required after June of this year. Also the BD-Live profile will include a logo that will be used on compliant players.
post #23 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

Quote:


Leaving just 15Mbit for primary video, great.

No that's in addition to the disc mux rate. If a Pip was running from a network or secondary storage device, it would in fact be in addition (not subtracted) from the primary video rate.

Except secondary video is limited to 4Mbps (or is it 6?) unless you have Enhanced Video, which no HD DVD player supports. What are you going to do with the rest of that 15Mbps?
Quote:


How about HD DVD using 30GB and VC-1 on virtually all of its releases, therefore using its space and bandwidth more effectively than using the older MPEG-2 codec and LPCM.

Every Blu-ray studio has now released or announced non-MPEG2 titles. Clearly if a given feature set can't be obtained with MPEG-2 and LPCM the studio will choose AVC or VC-1 for the video.

- Talk
post #24 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kosty View Post

All HD DVD players to date support [Enhanced Video] including the Xbox add on.

No, HD DVD insider posts have suggested this feature will never be needed and it isn't supported currently by any player. Even if it is present, it clearly isn't mandatory, leaving the question for studios and consumers of which players support it.
post #25 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Talkstr8t View Post

No, HD DVD insider posts have suggested this feature will never be needed and it isn't supported currently by any player. Even if it is present, it clearly isn't mandatory, leaving the question for studios and consumers of which players support it.

I will try and verify my recollection and I will correct it if I'm in error here.
post #26 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxi View Post

Geez,


This had the potential to be a nice thread for supporters of both formats. Any chance the mods can clean up all the sniping

this HAS the potential of being a great thread

posters who bash here have the potential of losing their posting privileges

Understood ?

more posts being edited/deleted
post #27 of 56
Thanks for the thread, it's the information I keep searching for on all the others.

Dumb Question #1 How does the difference (between Blu-ray and HD-DVD) in the Audio, Video and Combined bit rates translate into quality of experience in what Home Theater equipment is out there or will be in the future.

Sorry about such a general question.

Waiting for my SED
post #28 of 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by romper View Post

Thanks for the thread, it's the information I keep searching for on all the others.

Dumb Question #1 How does the difference (between Blu-ray and HD-DVD) in the Audio, Video and Combined bit rates translate into quality of experience in what Home Theater equipment is out there or will be in the future.

Sorry about such a general question.

Waiting for my SED

The answer is, theoretically, yes but we don't know since neutral studios refuse to take advantage of Blu-ray's storage and bandwidth.

The most telling will be the NIN disc which - for the first time both versions will use format-specific VC-1 and True HD. Even still, the Blu-ray version is a single layer.
post #29 of 56
Thread title edited: hope that makes it better

would like to make this a sticky: will watch closely that all posters take the high road here

Thanks
post #30 of 56
Is the OP interested only in the physical transport, the AV formats and limits, if so then it is a lopsided topic and probably why amir wanted to point out the interactive software layer aspects.

By now, we get it, today the physical media and transport is BD's advantage, the maturity of the software interactivity is HDDVD's advantage.

Yes, yes, we get it. People are going to go on and spend money and resources on BD-J and HDi whether the rest of us care or not.

So question back to OP is : what is the specification about? Just the underlying transports or do you include the software specs?
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