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Engadget: Blu-ray cracked .......

post #1 of 93
Thread Starter 
Quote:
HD DVD cracker muslix64 is back, and with the help of another anti-DRM cracker, Janvitos, claims to have also broken the Blu-ray's implementation of AACS. Although their protection does not yet account for BD+ copy-protection, they claim to have been able to implement the same key-grabbing known-plaintext attack as muslix64 used to crack HD DVD in order to successfully to crack Blu-ray without even using a disc or drive (apparently they just used a raw encrypted data file and nothing more).

http://www.features.engadget.com/200...y-cracked-too/
post #2 of 93
It was just a matter of time..

Maybe those BR people will shut up about about HD-DVD being cracked for a little while.. I can't wait to hear once the BD+ is hacked..
post #3 of 93
Haven't created enough threads yet, have you?

There is already a thread for this.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=777549
post #4 of 93
Well this news isn't that suprising. Blu-ray does have BD+ but it isn't used yet and the ROM Mark was only to prevent mass piracy from stamped discs. If Muslix has really broken AACS protection on Blu-ray, which is possible, will the hdnowonline website continue to accuse him of working for the BDA? Or am I being to logical about those who would make such a paranoid theory?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post

I can't wait to hear once the BD+ is hacked..

Just curious but why would you want that?
post #5 of 93
If BD+ is anything like Directv or Sky in the UK; that will be great. These are the only two things I know that have not being cracked yet.

Of course satellite TV is different ........
post #6 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

Just curious but why would you want that?

Fair Use. And to see Sony get smite again. I really don't see why they had to go with something other than what the DVD Forum was going after.

I say hack away! Sony and their proprietary formats..
post #7 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post

Fair Use. And to see Sony get smite again. I really don't see why they had to go with something other than what the DVD Forum was going after.

I say hack away! Sony and their proprietary formats..

people like this should really be banned from this forum. this is no place to be cheering on BS like this.

sad sad behavior.
post #8 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonStar View Post

If BD+ is anything like Directv or Sky in the UK; that will be great. These are the only two things I know that have not being cracked yet.

Nope, it has nothing to do with what is used in those products. If BD+ were in use, it would be broken just as easily and once there, it compromises AACS in the process.
post #9 of 93
Quote:


people like this should really be banned from this forum

Why should he be banned? Did you look at the threads when HD DVD was cracked. Blu-ray supporters were positively thrilled and a number said in no uncertain terms that this was the end of HD DVD. You want to ban all of them too? The fact is that ANYONE who is wishing for hackers to succeed or is happy when a format is hacked, either format, is seriously misguided. Either format getting hacked reflects badly on BOTH formats. The format war has clouded the judgement of many individuals.
post #10 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by DragonStar View Post

If BD+ is anything like ........

I think Sony has earned enough loathing for their rootkit fiasco (I know, Iknow that was Sony BMG ...) that I'm sure a lot of hackers would be thrilled to work on BD+. And BD+ is going to do false +ves and make people even more angry ...
post #11 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj View Post

I think Sony has earned enough loathing for their rootkit fiasco... that I'm sure a lot of hackers would be thrilled to work on BD+....

WORD!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzatwork View Post

people like this should really be banned from this forum. this is no place to be cheering on BS like this....

I can't figure out this pattern: the fewer posts a person has, the more willing he is to offer advice who should be
allowed to post on AVS and who should be banned. Same on the HTPC forum.

Diogen.
post #12 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Nope, it has nothing to do with what is used in those products. If BD+ were in use, it would be broken just as easily and once there, it compromises AACS in the process.

I ask this question with the utmost interest in gaining knowledge.

How do you know that BD+ would be broken "just as easily."?
post #13 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by diogen View Post

WORD!!
I can't figure out this pattern: the fewer posts a person has, the more willing he is to offer advice who should be
allowed to post on AVS and who should be banned. Same on the HTPC forum.

Diogen.

I will put my few words in edgewise here since I started this whole fiasco.

First, I only said that fair use would be governing in my decision to be "not sad" when both formats are hacked, even BD+. I can't stand the fact that our government is telling us what we can and can't do with our media.

It's like we are here paying taxes but the gov't works for the big companies taking rights out of our hand and handing them to sh*theads of MPAA. We are only renting this country from the gov't they proved that right with eminent domain.

So, I really don't care where the infringement on my constitutional rights is coming from, I just want to be able to copy the HD formats cause they are so easily scratchable.

Sony has put bad products out for years, and now they want ANOTHER proprietary format, well, I hope they lose MISRABLY.

So, I was happy to hear they got cracked as well and, it evens the playing field. And it just happened to be a company that I despise.

Truth be told, AACS has keys, they can be revoked. Plain and simple. There was no reason for BD+. It would be hacked in very short order from AACS. Sony just didn't want to play ball and potentially hurt J6P because he just bought a HDTV and can't or won't buy a player because HDTV is hard to learn already.

Sony should have put their money with the DVD forum, because they didn't I hope turmoil for the company.

This would probably be the first time I am on side with MicroSh*t. Bill Gates has more money than god to throw at this format (for now) and he probably will make sure Sony has a good run for the money and puts Sony well behind many other manufacturers (like Emerson) with their quality because they can't afford quality parts. Then I hope that Sony will disappear into the night. Well, I am being redunant...
post #14 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post

Fair Use.

Though I don't agree with that I do know that a lot of people believe in it. Understand though that a lot of people go far beyond fair use when a copy protection system is broken. Also technically AACS isn't permanently broken it is only temporarily broken.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post

And to see Sony get smite again. I really don't see why they had to go with something other than what the DVD Forum was going after.

Honestly I don't get that since from what I can see Sony managed to get most of the studios and CE companies behind there format. Personally I like what I have seen on Blu-ray and I don't see why so many posters seem to despise it.


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post

I say hack away! Sony and their proprietary formats..

What do you think VHS, CD, and DVD are? What do you think the games consoles are? What do you think iPod and Zune are? Most of the standards we have are proprietary formats that became standard because of the amount of support they received.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

If BD+ were in use, it would be broken just as easily and once there, it compromises AACS in the process.

Amir, are you talking about the Muslix hack that has been done? If so could you explain in detail how BD+ could have compromised AACS any further than it already is? I know you dislike BD+ but the statement you made doesn't look very logical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nataraj View Post

And BD+ is going to do false +ves and make people even more angry ...

nataraj, that is an opinion I have often heard by you but do you have any evidence at all that is going to happen? If not why than do you keep stating it as a fact?
post #15 of 93
Ok, SONY and their LOSING proprietary formats.

Always happens, always (probably) will! They shoulda learned with Beta and UMD.

I guess i will say also that Sony makes it hard to create formats for other studios, and the studios go the cheaper way and get more money. Like Porn and Universal.
post #16 of 93
how is blu-ray any more proprietary than hd-dvd? in fact, i would say its less proprietary with far more CE support, publisher support, and writable support...

go look at the patent list for blu-ray. blu-ray does not belong to sony.
post #17 of 93
Rhetoric is not going to "save the day". Sony wants BDA to succeed and not hd-dvd.
post #18 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Spektricide View Post

I ask this question with the utmost interest in gaining knowledge.

How do you know that BD+ would be broken "just as easily."?

The foundation of any software content security system is to use technology which makes it very difficult for hackers to look at memory and find key data, or debug the application. To the extent that it is alleged that keys were simply in plain view, would mean that BD+ code would likewise be sitting bare, making it trivial to hack into BD+ engine, and take out the decrypted bits.

Put another way, it is unreasonable to assume that the BD+ layer would enjoy higher level of protection than the AACS layer in a software system. So if one can break AACS layer, one can also break BD+. After all, if a better technique is known to protect BD+, why not also use it on AACS?

In the interest of not teaching people more than they need to know, I am not going to expand beyond this .
post #19 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Paul View Post

If so could you explain in detail how BD+ could have compromised AACS any further than it already is? I know you dislike BD+ but the statement you made doesn't look very logical.

"In detail"? No. It would be irresponsible for me to post a blue-print on how to hack BD+. As for logic, I just provided it above.
post #20 of 93
AnthonyB, quit while your ahead. Your a Sony hater and have weak arguements to justify your hatred.
post #21 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzatwork View Post

how is blu-ray any more proprietary than hd-dvd? in fact, i would say its less proprietary with far more CE support, publisher support, and writable support...

go look at the patent list for blu-ray. blu-ray does not belong to sony.

...Then explain to me why do the Blu-ray trademark and the Blu-ray logo belong to the Sony Corporation (as stated on the player's manual).
post #22 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Technicolor View Post

...Then explain to me why do the Blu-ray trademark and the Blu-ray logo belong to the Sony Corporation...

That is not an argument.
Linux is almost the definition of Open Source but the Linux name is the trademark on Linus Torvalds.

But I do believe BDA members are not equals, Sony is obviously "more equal than others".

Diogen.
post #23 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by dazzatwork View Post

how is blu-ray any more proprietary than hd-dvd? in fact, i would say its less proprietary with far more CE support, publisher support, and writable support...

That is not the definition of proprietary. Windows has 1000X more companies supporting it than BD. Yet it is still proprietary technology of Microsoft. Popular and proprietary are not the same thing.

For a good example of why BD is more proprietary than HD DVD, you can look at two technologies: BD+ and BD profiles. Despite hundreds of discussion threads here, not a single line from either document as ever been produced here. Why? Another example is voting. Votes of all HD DVD decisions are public. Not one from BD is. So you never know who wanted to support what, and what position they took. If BDA is more open than HD DVD, why do they share less information about what goes on inside?

Quote:


go look at the patent list for blu-ray. blu-ray does not belong to sony.

That has nothing to do with whether the technology is open or not.
post #24 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post

Rhetoric is not going to "save the day". Sony wants BDA to succeed and not hd-dvd.

Anthony...
I'll tell why it is ok to [not to think nice things from] Sony.

Their venture into the film business when they bought Columbia Pictures (and its subsidiaries like Tri-Star Pictures and Orion Pictures) is just a way for them to have enough content in order to push whatever format they want.

Their purchases of important film and music libraries and catalogs are an important step that makes them virtually impossible to beat.

Now... having both content and the equipment necessary to use that content, Sony is in a position never before seen in the History of recorded media. Why? Because it nearly gives them enough power to dictate the consumer's necessary purchases in the short to long term.

How does that happen? Well. That's quite easy: they project in time the sales numbers of any of their formats and just get ready with another format the minute the current format's sales become flat.

This way, Sony is in the position of being always on the boom of something. Consumers have no choice but to buy whatever Sony tells them to (every 15 years or so) ...or go obsolete and unplayable in an universe of products that last less and less longer.

Software (content) and hardware in the same company (like Sony) means that if they can force us to buy the same movie ten times during your life time, they will. Obsolence and incompatibility are the excuses.

Look... Super-8 lasted 40 years... VHS lasted 25 years... DVD has been going on for 10 years... and Sony wants to have it retired by the time it reaches 15. Why? Because they want their content always being sold again and again. While VHS was at its height, Sony tried to release movies in Hi-8. Why? The CD has been good enough for everybody, right? So, Sony tries to release albums in MiniDisc. It obviously failed. This only shows that Sony is always trying to use content in order push something we dot really need.

Other CE companies also have a content branch... but none are as gigantic as Sony, who, alone, moves a huge amount of content with their electronic products.

Paramount, Warner, Disney, Universal and Fox... none of them are for any other company what Columbia is for Sony. Even almighty General Electric does not uses its content branch to push anything the way Sony does.

Movies suffer from that because, for Sony, they are just a way of pushing their technology (look at all the pointless Sony product placement they make on their films - like the most recent 007).

Technology also suffers because it has no competition... it does not really have to be good. As the BDA keeps saying: the victory is innevitable.

So why make good products? Why make a trully robust format?
In 15 years, when sales become stable, they will kill their own format and make you buy the next best thing - so a new boost is on the corner.

The Hollywood studios were once forced to break because of almost the same reason: they had production, distribution and exhibition at the same time (making them free to push whatever to whoever).

Someone should do the same to Sony.

That's my oppinion.
post #25 of 93
Hey Technicolor, a cool thought-provoking post. Thanks.
post #26 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post

Always happens, always (probably) will!

I don't really understand how someone can hate a company this much. Also I take it you have never heard of either the CD or the Playstation?


Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post

Rhetoric is not going to "save the day". Sony wants BDA to succeed and not hd-dvd.

The same as Microsoft/Toshiba wanting HD DVD to succeed and not Blu-ray.


Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Put another way, it is unreasonable to assume that the BD+ layer would enjoy higher level of protection than the AACS layer in a software system. So if one can break AACS layer, one can also break BD+.

Not very logical, after all not all hacks will be done by the method used by Muslix. Because of that there may be cases were BD+ will prevent a hack from working against AACS. Come now Amir you know that and playing word games ignores the reality that BD+ was made to help protect AACS from being hacked.
post #27 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Technicolor View Post

Their purchases of important film and music libraries and catalogs are an important step that makes them virtually impossible to beat.

Let me give you an even more impossible to beat company. A monopoly that controls the vast majority of the consumer operating system business which has used their influence to push their own software over their competitors. Not that I have anything against Microsoft but if you are going to hate Sony for the amount of power they have it seems logical that you should hate Microsoft even more. Than again hatred is rarely logical.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Technicolor View Post

Software (content) and hardware in the same company (like Sony) means that if they can force us to buy the same movie ten times during your life time, they will. Obsolence and incompatibility are the excuses.

Look... Super-8 lasted 40 years... VHS lasted 25 years... DVD has been going on for 10 years... and Sony wants to have it retired by the time it reaches 15. Why?

Wow, there are just so many things wrong with this conspiracy theory I have to ask you if you understand why people upgraded from VHS to DVD or from DVD to Blu-ray? Do you really think even for a second that it was because they were forced to do it? In fact besides leaving off numerous failed and niche video formats how is Super-8 even a consumer video format? Finally don't you understand that HD DVD is meant to be a replacements for DVD as well?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Technicolor View Post

Movies suffer from that because, for Sony, they are just a way of pushing their technology (look at all the pointless Sony product placement they make on their films - like the most recent 007).

You can't blame stuff like that only on Sony since a lot of movie studios have done that as well.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Technicolor View Post

Technology also suffers because it has no competition... it does not really have to be good. As the BDA keeps saying: the victory is innevitable.

And HD DVD considers itself perfect. What do you expect from those marketing the two formats?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Technicolor View Post

In 15 years, when sales become stable, they will kill their own format and make you buy the next best thing - so a new boost is on the corner.

What do you think HD DVD was made for? Both HD formats were made to replace DVD so it is ridiculous to attack only one of them because of that.
post #28 of 93
Quote:
Originally Posted by Technicolor View Post

Anthony...
I'll tell why it is ok to [not to think nice things from] Sony.

Their venture into the film business when they bought Columbia Pictures (and its subsidiaries like Tri-Star Pictures and Orion Pictures) is just a way for them to have enough content in order to push whatever format they want.

Their purchases of important film and music libraries and catalogs are an important step that makes them virtually impossible to beat.

Now... having both content and the equipment necessary to use that content, Sony is in a position never before seen in the History of recorded media. Why? Because it nearly gives them enough power to dictate the consumer's necessary purchases in the short to long term.

How does that happen? Well. That's quite easy: they project in time the sales numbers of any of their formats and just get ready with another format the minute the current format's sales become flat.

This way, Sony is in the position of being always on the boom of something. Consumers have no choice but to buy whatever Sony tells them to (every 15 years or so) ...or go obsolete and unplayable in an universe of products that last less and less longer.

Software (content) and hardware in the same company (like Sony) means that if they can force us to buy the same movie ten times during your life time, they will. Obsolence and incompatibility are the excuses.

Look... Super-8 lasted 40 years... VHS lasted 25 years... DVD has been going on for 10 years... and Sony wants to have it retired by the time it reaches 15. Why? Because they want their content always being sold again and again. While VHS was at its height, Sony tried to release movies in Hi-8. Why? The CD has been good enough for everybody, right? So, Sony tries to release albums in MiniDisc. It obviously failed. This only shows that Sony is always trying to use content in order push something we dot really need.

Other CE companies also have a content branch... but none are as gigantic as Sony, who, alone, moves a huge amount of content with their electronic products.

Paramount, Warner, Disney, Universal and Fox... none of them are for any other company what Columbia is for Sony. Even almighty General Electric does not uses its content branch to push anything the way Sony does.

Movies suffer from that because, for Sony, they are just a way of pushing their technology (look at all the pointless Sony product placement they make on their films - like the most recent 007).

Technology also suffers because it has no competition... it does not really have to be good. As the BDA keeps saying: the victory is innevitable.

So why make good products? Why make a trully robust format?
In 15 years, when sales become stable, they will kill their own format and make you buy the next best thing - so a new boost is on the corner.

The Hollywood studios were once forced to break because of almost the same reason: they had production, distribution and exhibition at the same time (making them free to push whatever to whoever).

Someone should do the same to Sony.

That's my oppinion.

So this is a "Sony is evil and their practices are evil" post and "nice" Microsoft needs to become as evil in order to compete post. And the way Sony is evil is because it owns so much of everything.

Both companies are doing their best to get ahead and are using all tactics possible to do so. It is as simple as that. Amir is here on these forums as the Microsoft spokeperson while Sony doesn't seem to have anyone official representing them on these forums.. ( I do remember one thread where some Sony guy came on here asking for feedback thru a forum member) I would like to hear some positive things said of Sony by some of its harshest critics just out of curiosity. I would love to hear Amir say something positive about Blu-Ray for once.. The same with most of the non-format-neutral HD-DVD crowd. I can say this, I think HD-DVD is a great thing and I am glad it is in direct competiton with Sony. Having this competiton as I've said and others have said countless times that it brings out the best (and yes in some cases the worst) in all of us. Sony has created some amazing products and is wether we like it or not a huge part of our electronic lives. The same goes with Microsoft. I'm typing this on an XP Pro Dell... Sometimes I wonder how many people are paid by these large companies to come on these forums and simply spin things their way and putting down the competiton?

I know that last rant had nothing to do with this topic of this thread. However I agree with Amir here that whatever gets put out will get cracked. And we shall never see a definitive version of any movie for the rest of our lives.. There will always be a way to re-market everything with new features, better quality audio/video, etc etc... SD-DVD's and LaserDiscs look best on old CRT's, so I still have a CRT. All my Blu-Ray movies from the PS3 look great on my HDTV DLP... And in a few years when HDMI 1.3 displays and audi video recievers become affordable, I will upgrade and still have my PS3 and Blu-Ray movies shine on the new equipment and look even better than they do now.. (which will be amazing since they already look excellent) And at that time a 100 inch flat panel will be in the $2,000 range
post #29 of 93
Quote:


at that time a 100 inch flat panel will be in the $2,000 range

Sign me up!
post #30 of 93
i really think the aricle is stupid (and i am more of a hd-dvd supporter). and mainly because bluray isnt hacked yet. they arent using bd+ yet and thats why its been able to be hacked. that said if/when bd+ is hacked (and i fully expect it will be eventually) whats the bd camp going to do? because they were the ones that got studios on board offering "more copy protection".

And I think the key to hacking bd+ will be the ps3 and thats because sony was being stupid when they ever allowed linux to run on the ps3.
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