Denon AVR 2807 or Pioneer Elite VSX82TXS?

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I'm deciding between these two receivers as well. Any thoughts? Thanks.

I'd also like some input on these receivers. Pro's and Con's of each.

I will be using a PS3 for Blu-ray movies, music and gaming connected via HDMI to the receiver, receiver HDMI out to my display. I care about LPCM, etc. Also will be using 360 with component/optical for gaming and a HD direcTV via HDMI.

Is the power adequate to drive my Energy RC-30's and sound good without adding an additional amplifier? I want it to sound nice and tight/full at low levels and moderate levels, much more important to me than being able to piss off the people across the street.

Running Energy RC-30's up front and Energy C-3's for the rear and adding sub soon (HSU or SVS):

Width: 12'6" (150"s) with an opening to the kitchen on one side about 4"s from corner (Width 3'2" (38's), Height 6'8 (80's)
Lenght: 13'6" (162"s)
Height: 8' (96"s)

Volume: 1350 (hardwood floors)

"Is the power adequate to drive my Energy RC-30's and sound good without adding an additional amplifier? I want it to sound nice and tight/full at low levels and moderate levels"


Denon 2807 - 110 wpc, 30 lbs
Pioneer Elite VSX-82... - 130 wpc, 35 lbs

Both these amplifiers have plenty of power and should drive any good surround speaker system up to $3500 in cost. Assuming you will be using a good center channel but not big floorstanders for the front (L+R) speakers.

I would be partial to the Pioneer Elite because its larger and better power supply will allow the unit to do what you want (tight, quality dynamics at reasonable listening levels) better.
However, a friend of mine has an older 80 wpc Denon and it is a very good unit. I just perceive the Pioneer Elite to be marginally better. Either unit would be better, in my opinion, than many of the other "reasonably priced" brands.

One thing to consider, at your price point I'd be taking a hard look at the Outlaw Audio Model 1070 A/V receiver. And don't let the 65wpc power rating dissuade you unless you are going to use large power sucking speakers - with the normal $2000 for the 5.1 system speaker setup (like Definitive Technology Pro Cinema 1000 system) I'd bet the Outlaw unit would smoke both the Pioneer Elite and the Denon units. BUT, if you select an Outlaw unit make sure it comes with HDMI switching as they have been slower to incorporate it...

Ooooooooooh, wait! One of you do have floorstanders!



For one of you, I'd talk to someone who has the Outlaw receiver and the Energy speakers before jumping on the Outlaw wagon train - the Energy floorstanders would probably work fine with the Outlaw receiver, but they might also benefit from both the power supply and the extra wpc of the Pioneer Elite Receiver. I'd suggest the Denon would be not the better choice with floorstanders, just because of its lesser power supply.

[Power supply capacity/adequacy can be approximated by comparing the weights of receivers, as it contributes to the majority of a component's weight. Notice, the Outlaw receiver weights 40 lbs at (conservatively rated, all channels driven at the same time) 65 wpc. IF indeed it would smoke the other two units (driving medium sized speakers) part of the reason would be because of its superior power supply.]

I guess, one point I'd like to make (say again, differently?) is: for quality, not quantity, power supply is more important than wpc. In the not that rare case of when (in higher end equipment, even when played to quite loud, but not ear splitting levels) a 80 wpc receiver smokes a 110 wpc receiver it almost certainly due to one having a good power supply and the other having a supreme power supply.

A third way to say it ( I know: ): I'd suggest, until the Outlaw unit "peters out" becuase it has done all it can with whatever power (wpc) it has available, it would sound better than either of the other two units.


"much more important to me than being able to piss off the people across the street."

that was funny. Probably a good goal to have (musically, as well as socially) too.

Which receiver would... have better upscaling capabilities?

a) I didn't know receivers did upscaling (like from a 480p DVD to one's 1080i or 1080p television?).

b) Regardless, a better solution would be to have your good upscaling DVD player do the upscaling as it would do the best job.
(I purchased a Toshiba HD-DVD player mainly because it is supposed to upscale SD DVD's better than my XBR2 television or the $150 to $280 upscaling DVD players currently available. Yes, it plays HD-DVD's too, but that's just a bonus (assuming HD-DVD's continue to be sold...).

c) If A/V receivers can upscale a video signal, I would still think that a good DVD player or good 1080p television would upscale much better than a device primarily designed by long-term audio people.

thanks DelsFan. Has there actually been any testing on this weight to performance correlation on receivers? What does a 5lb difference sound like?

"Has there actually been any testing on this weight to performance correlation on receivers? What does a 5lb difference sound like? "

I'm sure not, but my friend's home theatre installer suggested this same theory to me last weekend, unsolicited. What does a 5 lb difference sound like? I'd suggest this means a 10 lb power supply instead of a 5 lb power supply. I'd suggest that you could a/b the two receivers with a speaker system that somewhat mated well to both, and you would instantly be able to tell which one was tighter and more controlled. Making you happier as you watch action movies or musicals.

YES, it is a crude "measurement", but when comparing several Japanese manufactured a/v receivers that have at least a semblance (I think that's a word) of similar construction, more weight will almost always translate to a better power supply.

And more power supply means a tighter sound at both normal and louder listening levels.

Take six a/v receivers rated at 110 wpc and find the one that sounds clearly better than the other five (not by a mile, but better). Better meaning it is tight and controlled at low to high to very high volumes, and while reproducing complex sounds through five speakers at the same time - whereas the others are just pretty good at low to high volumes and slightly wimp out when presented with difficult sounds or fairly loud volumes. You will almost certainly find the clearly better a/v receiver is the one with the better power supply (thus, it weighs more).

I might add that some receivers have a warm sound and are well placed in a system with bright speakers - others are brighter sounding and work fine as long as you speakers are warmer sounding to begin with. So in my example, "better" means better sounding with appropriately selected speakers, not necessarily better for every speaker ever made.

Why do some receivers sound better than others? Build quality and better components have some effect (but these things usually result in a $1400 Rotel instead of a $800 Pioneer, Denon, Harmon Karden...). I'm just saying that in similarly constructed Japanese manufactured receivers, paying for a better power supply is more productive than paying for a few more wpc.

Gotcha, thanks again. Had no idea how much power supply's weighed and effect sq and all that. I did figured better parts made differences.

I have anolder Pioneer Elite 45TX and I've recently installed a 2807 in a friends HT. My first Denon because that's what he wanted. I liked the Pioneer 1016 the same for Audio as the Denon. The 1016 dooes not have upconversion like the Denon.

The advanced MCACC n the Pioneer woiuld sway my opinion assuming Pioneer has its HDMI issues worked out if your switching HDMI. If your not, IMHO, the Pioneers are my favorite choice. I agree that you should check out Outlaw as I've heard these and they are very good but typically do not have all the bells and whistles that the latest Pioneer's have....

Good Luck!

Mike

"Do the Definitive Theater Procinema 1000 speakers sound good even though they're only bookshelf speakers?"


YES. Because, the center channel does most of the work and these (ported) L+R speakers were made to match up well with a ProCinema 1000 subwoofer (or two). Without the subwoofer... whole different ballgame - you'd need to spend more money on floorstanders and then they still wouldn't begin to approach the impact provided by a decent quality sub.

I only heard the ProCinema system in a smaller room, about 14' x 16', with 8' ceilings. Nearly half the size of a 20' x 20' room (and exactly half the cubic footage if your 20' x 20' room has 9' ceilings).

I would suggest a couple of things for your room.

a) these bookshelf speakers would not be "bad", especially if you have your seating area 3' to 5' from your back wall (as is good, sofa against back wall gives you less feeling of "presence", of "participating" in the movie instead of "watching" it).
A rear projection television screen 2' from wall would give you a 13' to 15' viewing and listening distance. Perhaps the limit of the ProCinema 1000 bookshelves, but I'd think about the following suggestions and then upgrade the L+R (heck, basically you'd be upgrading to a completely larger system) if your budget allows. If your budget doesn't allow, I'd be pretty surprised if these L+R speakers with the following upgrades to the CC and sub(s) would ever disappoint you.

b) Upgrading to the C/L/R 2200 center channel speaker would be an instantly recognizable upgrade - the first one I'd do before upgrading the L+R speakers.

c) The ProCinema 1000 sub is a good sub, and more musical than their supercube series subs. Unless you care nothing about music, just sports and action movies, I'd consider using two ProCinema 1000 subs as opposed to upgrading to one 12" super duper sub. [Supposedly, two $600 subs are twice as good as one, larger, $900 sub - for sure in rooms 3000 CF or larger - for only 33% more money ($1200 vs $900). And, you don't have to purchase the two subs at the same time (or you can purchase one and demo one and see if you can stand for the demo to go back to the store!)] To save money, if you don't care anything about music, you might find using just one $600 less musical sub of the 12" variety would be satisfactory. I like music so I hate "thumpers"! Just so you know my "bias".

d) Yes, in a room your size, larger L+R speakers might yield a slightly better result. However, I'd suggest using a better center channel speaker and incorporating two medium subs instead of one large one would increase the pleasure of your listening experience much more than incorporating larger L+R speakers.

Conclusion: in your room I'd not hesitate to try the ProCinema 1000 system with the C/L/R 2200 center channel and two ProCinema 1000 subs. I'd expect it to be better than the systems owned by 95% of (not only your friends, but) anyone you know. Unless you work in a law office or are a surgical nurse - and therefore know several attorneys or doctors .

Hope this helps!

Woops. Was I off track here! Copied from another post (of mine):

I just learned what upconverting receivers do (not convert 480i to 720p or 1080i as upconverting DVD players do) - they take the component analog video signal from your old cable tv box and/or dvd player and convert it to a digital video signal that can be output via the receiver's HDMI output (to your television).

Important, the Pioneer Elite VSX-82 does this but the VSX-80 does not. Probably of supreme importance to some people.

As far as would the Pioneer Elite upconvert better than the Denon? I don't know. I do know that when a person upgrades their DVD player and cable box it won't matter, as their new units will have HDMI outputs. Having several HDMI inputs could become a major convenience down the road though...

If you want Blu-Ray and/or HD-DVD advanced sound... don't get the Outlaw. There are no HDMI inputs. I wouldn't expect to see a new, up to date Outlaw pre-amp or receiver until late this year or next.

Dan

ABSOLUTELY get the Denon. There are two reasons that have been mentioned over and over in other threads. The Pioneer has bass problems and the video conversion degrades the picture quality / adds artifacts. Read the Pioneer thread for details about the "LFE" problem, and read the below professional review about the video problems. Pioneer has yet to release a fix for either problem (and has no timetable to do so, so who knows how long you could be using a receiver with crappy bass and video issues). The Denon on the other hand has a lot of love from CNET and many satisfied users. One more detail to consider: don't get the Denon AVR-2807, get the Denon AVR-987. It's the SAME receiver which has a different model number for different retailers. If you call www.jr.com, you can get the 987 from a factory authorized dealer (which means the warranty is valid) for only $799 shipped. The Pioneer is (as far as I can tell) $1199 from a factory authorized (warranty valid) dealer. Good luck

http://www.audioholics.com/productre...SX-82TXSp1.php

I am looking at these two receivers as well. Seem to have similar features, the Pioneer has the video problem which is supposed to be fixed via firmware update soon, and I've read some problems with Denon customer service/support.

Both are similar and price so I'm having a hard time deciding.

I noticed Circuit City carries the 987 while Best Buy carries the 2807.. Are they really the exact same?

EXACTLY the same receiver, different remote. See for yourself:

http://usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/...mageField.y=17

Save some $$$ and get the AVR-987 from www.jr.com. I decided the Pioneer had too many problems and ordered my AVR-987 yesterday A lot of people have been taking advantage of this price; they are currently out of stock but are getting more soon.

Thanks misterjensen.. Good to know.

Just wanted to mention AVS is a Denon dealer. They carry the 2807 for a very good price.

That's just way-off in so many ways. The RC-30s will produce 92dB at 1 metre with 1 watt of power. That plain and simply means that the user is unlikely to ever use a full continuous watt of power in the system. Any of the suggested receivers have way more power than is ever needed or will ever be used. They're all fine choices.

"Would DefTech allow me to match the ProCinema 1000 systems with floor standing LR speakers? If so, which ones would you recommend?
Also, wouldn't the 12" sub be overkill for a 15x15 room?"

Hmmm.
First, go to The Perfect Vision website and backorder their winter 2007 issue that includes their 150 best HT products. They don't know it all, and there are some decent (by perfection standards) pieces of equipment that they don't list.
But, at worst, if you looked at and/or purchased speakers and a/v receivers listed in their rag you would most certainly not wind up with any junk. Probably, if you are particular with your sound, you would not even wind up with a poor value. Might there be a better product made, or one for 5% less? YES. But, my point remains, you wouldn't have poor sound (Bose?) if you quit all research (taking the fun out of it!) and simply purchased products they liked... You would probably wind up with, at worst, a system better than most anyone else's that you know.

SECOND I'm telling you the truth, get that issue, heck, subscribe for only $14/year or something, $20? a year of The Perfect Vision and The Absolute Sound? You will be informed, more than listening to know-nothing salesmen, after you peruse its pages.

OK. If you want to use floorstanders by DefTech you only need to be sure the center channel you use is voiced the same. I believe the C/L/R center channel speakers voice with all their floorstanders but you would want to check to be sure.

My friend as a 12" M&K V-125 subwoofer in his home theatre room, about 20' x 14' but only 7'-6" ceilings. It is a $1000 sub and is more than adequate. Will a cheaper 10" sub do the job in your room? I'd ask a Definitive Tech retailer (or e-mail them with your rooms dimensions and ask them - sent them all three dim's though since cubic footage determines your sub requirements, not square footage) if the 10" ProCinema 1000 would be sufficient. I'll bet it would be if your room is less than 2000 CF.

"Do you know anything about the quality of the Faroudja HD scaler?"

Squat. You should consider (not necessarily take!) my audio advice, because I know something. I'm new enough to the intricacies of the video game, I know what 60" televisions are decent and priced well but know not that much about the internal stuff...


"The Pioneer has bass problems and the video conversion degrades the picture quality / adds artifacts."

Fine by me; one of the great benefits of this forum. Sonically I'd suggest the Pioneer Elite would be slightly (but clearly) better than the Denon, but if the Pioneer unit won't pass the video through well then it's useless... agreed.


"the 82TXS is THX Select2 certified. What does that mean? Does it produce better sound than non-thx certified receivers?"

To me it means the manufacturer cares a little about the sound. It means that the receiver will do the things sonically that George Lucas deems important, and it will do them to his standards. To me, it means the receiver isn't junk, but it doesn't mean that it is a supurb sounding unit. It might be, but I'd put any of the Arcam, Outlaw, etc. stuff up against the THX Pioneer Elite units and expect the Elite receiver to be smoked. The high end guys don't need a THX label, their stuff kills and their clientelle know it.


Originally Posted by DelsFan
[i]...the Energy floorstanders would probably work fine with the Outlaw receiver, but they might also benefit from both the power supply and the extra wpc of the Pioneer Elite Receiver. I'd suggest the Denon would be not the better choice with floorstanders, just because of its lesser power supply

A different opinion:
"That's just way-off in so many ways. The RC-30s will produce 92dB at 1 metre with 1 watt of power. That plain and simply means that the user is unlikely to ever use a full continuous watt of power in the system. "

Use your ears, not your eyes. In fact, you kind of make my point. Until you get to a volume requirement that uses, say, half a reciever's wpc capacity, how many watts per channel it delivers is immaterial. So, I'm saying: the unit with the better power supply and 65 watts per channel (Outlaw) will smoke (smoke: sound better, sound tighter, and sound real good all the way up to its rated wpc) the two units with 110 wpc, until you start asking it to play really loud, or in a huge room (which translates to really loud at the speaker but not as loud to the listener if he is 20' or 25' away...). And, I'm saying: the unit with the better power supply (Pioneer) will sound tighter at low listening levels and better at all listening levels up to its rated wpc than the one with the lesser power supply. As long as you have "enough" wpc for your sized room (and speakers), wpc is not too important and power supply (coupled with, yes, quality of components) is (nearly) everything.


"Does anyone know how it performs with the DefTech ProCinema 1000 systems? Is the receiver too bright, too warm or just perfect for the speakers? Please let me know."

Hmmm. I don't remember which receiver was warm, I do remember that the DefTech speakers are more bright (not Klipsch bright though) than neutral, because of their tweeter design.

If no one else responds, I know someone I can call that knows...

Looks like they got more stock; my 987 shipped out

My point is that nobody will ever use 65 watts of power into those speakers since they're unlikely to ever use 2 watts. Sorry to inject reality, but that's just a fact; so talking about the power potentials of the amps doesn't say anything about their actual performance for somebody. Words like "tighter" certainly sound like an opinion, but they don't actually mean anything real-world either. A watt is a watt is a watt. One is not a tight watt while another is loose. You're evaluating what the receiver will sound like based on a number that really has no effect on the sound at all. Go tell a Rotel owner that his RB1050's bass isn't as "tight" as that Pioneer's because the Pioneer has a higher power rating - good luck being taken seriously. Any of the receivers mentioned in the thread will work absolutely fine for the poster, despite your statements to the contrary:

I am regretfully investigating replacing my wonderful Outlaw 990 preamp/processor with either the Denon AVR-2807 or the Pioneer VSX-82txs because I cannot switch two multi-channel high-definition surround sound sources with the Outlaw (it doesn't have HDMI inputs and only one set of 7.1 channel analog inputs).

It sounds like the AVR-987 is the better bargain here since I could care less about the remote control (I use my own custom-programmed RC). Has anyone got a good reason I should NOT get the AVR-987 (e.g., it messes with the video signal, has LFE problems, it only accepts 5.1 channels of PCM over HDMI, etc.)?

"Words like "tighter" certainly sound like an opinion, but they don't actually mean anything real-world either. "
Yes, tighter is subjective - but it does mean something in the real world because a person can hear it. Usually without straining.


"Go tell a Rotel owner that his RB1050's bass isn't as "tight" as that Pioneer's because the Pioneer has a higher power rating - good luck being taken seriously."
Well, the Pioneer bass would probably not be as tight as the Rotel's - and it wouldn't be because of power rating (the Rotel's would be lower), it would be because of increased quality of parts and the Rotel's better power supply. I'm agreeing that power rating has little to do with sound quality (unless a receiver is seriously underpowered or being used with terribly inefficent speakers - not the case here). THEREFORE, I am saying that (in the case of Rotel, Arcam, etc) better parts and (for the sake of this argument) power supply ARE what is important. And amongst similarly priced and similarly rated (using the same criteria to rate wpc, not into 4 ohms instead of 8 ohms, or from 40Hz to 20,000 Hz instead of 20Hz to 20,000 Hz...) I say (agree) that for under $1000 a/v receivers: specifications are virtually useless for potential buyers.


Any of the receivers mentioned in the thread will work absolutely fine for the poster,
I'm not disagreeing, I'm picking nits. I still say the Pioneeer Elite unit will sound better because of it's larger power supply - because all other things seem to be equal. But,
- I could be wrong
- I haven't listened to these two units side by side