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Denver, CO - OTA - Page 261

post #7801 of 8459
After noting that the low resolution on "The Cool TV" almost always involves videos from the 1980s I e-mailed programming at "The Cool TV" to ask if they were going to up the resolution of those videos. The response was that, that was the resolution of the videos that they had been able to get from that era, that they try to get the best quality that they possibly can, and that the only other option would be to not air those videos at all. Were we blind back in the 80s? Are we spoiled by digital quality video?
post #7802 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkreichen1968 View Post

After noting that the low resolution on "The Cool TV" almost always involves videos from the 1980s I e-mailed programming at "The Cool TV" to ask if they were going to up the resolution of those videos. The response was that, that was the resolution of the videos that they had been able to get from that era, that they try to get the best quality that they possibly can, and that the only other option would be to not air those videos at all. Were we blind back in the 80s? Are we spoiled by digital quality video?

I can believe that - they probably can digitize the signals and clean them up but you can't add data that does not exist. We had nothing to compare what we were watching at the time. I remember my trips to Tokyo in the early 90s for business and my first free time to myself I would head for the Sony building to watch their HD tvs.
post #7803 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiguy3 View Post

... you can't add data that does not exist.

That, plus image and audio degradation resulting from aging vidoetape and celluloid, most of which probably wasn't stored with long-term preservation in mind. It's also safe to assume the original media weren't state of the art. While these music videos have some value in that they reflect the pop culture of the time, they're not exactly "Apocalypse Now" or "Sophie's Choice," nor were they produced as such.
post #7804 of 8459
I don't remember there being many big screen TVs. I remember one in the bar across from the college dorms (1988-92) that didn't have an impressive picture at all. Pretty much everything else was under 32". So, that would pretty much account for my MTV watching for that time period.
post #7805 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_M View Post

That, plus image and audio degradation resulting from aging vidoetape and celluloid, most of which probably wasn't stored with long-term preservation in mind.

In addition, when the videos were converted to a digital format, regardless of whether they were from videotape or film, they were very likely transferrred from copies that were at least one or two generations removed from the original master. There can be considerable image quality loss in two generations.
post #7806 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_M View Post

That, plus image and audio degradation resulting from aging vidoetape and celluloid, most of which probably wasn't stored with long-term preservation in mind. It's also safe to assume the original media weren't state of the art. While these music videos have some value in that they reflect the pop culture of the time, they're not exactly "Apocalypse Now" or "Sophie's Choice," nor were they produced as such.

While some were shot on film, most were produced on videotape and 1" and U-Matic tapes only had a maximum resolution of between 280 and 330 horizontal lines or so (compare to VHS at 240, Betacam SP at 360 and S-VHS at 400.)

Note that the older 2" Quadraplex video format actually had a resolution of 400 horizontal lines or so, but many of the copies of programs available to stations today were made from broadcast masters bumped down to 1" or U-Matic rather than the original 2" masters. (This is an issue as functioning 2" tape machines are rapidly becoming dinosaurs.)

This obviously is an issue for a fairly large amount of program content; for example, if you've seen an episode of All in the Family or Three's Company lately, they were recorded to (by comparison with today's formats) low resolution NTSC composite format videotape.

This creates the interesting dichotomy that many older programs actually look better today because they were shot on film; see the recent Blu-rays of The Twilight Zone for a perfect example of this; programs originating on tape will never look any better than the resolution of the VTRs used.
post #7807 of 8459
The old shows looked good on a 21" TV when viewed from 12'.
post #7808 of 8459
Although this is an OTA thread, and the article linked below goes beyond that, I thought I would post this link as the implications to OTA reception are obvious.

http://www.tvnewscheck.com/article/2...n-works/page/1


Enjoy,

TC AVS
post #7809 of 8459
Looks like things have gone dead on here - no posts in over a month. Has sCARE gotten to everyone?
post #7810 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave6833 View Post

Looks like things have gone dead on here - no posts in over a month. Has sCARE gotten to everyone?

sCARE ???

Just not much to say right now. Seems TC AVS's link to next gen TV below is no longer working though.

Woops, it's back now.
post #7811 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelr View Post

...Seems TC AVS's link to next gen TV below is no longer working though.

Strange, the link just worked for me.
post #7812 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave6833 View Post

Strange, the link just worked for me.

My bad. I went back later and it was fine. Sorry
post #7813 of 8459
For at least a couple of months, I have noticed audio issues on channel 28. I have been recording Star Trek off of 28-3 and there is generally a popping sound every few seconds. (It is very rare that I can receive 3-1 directly from the Sterling transmitter).
A couple of days ago, when the 28-3 signal was sent to my old surround sound decoder, the audio was flipping between the left and right speakers every few seconds.
I am just curious whether others see similar problems. I don't think it is unique to me, since I detect it on more than one tuner, and I can't think of any signal reception issues that would only effect digitized audio on a few sub-channels.
post #7814 of 8459
Not unique; that's the way the audio's been on 28-3 as long as I can remember, and it's that way for every show.
post #7815 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave6833 View Post

Looks like things have gone dead on here - no posts in over a month. Has sCARE gotten to everyone?

It's the digital radiation that is frying out brains. I'm even having trouble drooling.
post #7816 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenavs View Post

For at least a couple of months, I have noticed audio issues on channel 28. I have been recording Star Trek off of 28-3 and there is generally a popping sound every few seconds. (It is very rare that I can receive 3-1 directly from the Sterling transmitter).
A couple of days ago, when the 28-3 signal was sent to my old surround sound decoder, the audio was flipping between the left and right speakers every few seconds.
I am just curious whether others see similar problems. I don't think it is unique to me, since I detect it on more than one tuner, and I can't think of any signal reception issues that would only effect digitized audio on a few sub-channels.

Just to be clear, your last sentence seems to imply that you don't have audio issues with the other Channel 28 subchannels. Is that correct?

I just checked and I did not encounter any audio issues on 28.3. But I rarely tune into 28.3. I'll try to remember to check at some other times of the day.
post #7817 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenavs View Post

I am just curious whether others see similar problems.

KLPD-LD has the least reliable broadcast signal in the market. The audio issue you observed on 28-3 occurs frequently, and its transmitter has a habit of conking out intermittently as well. There was no signal at all on 28.x either Thursday or Friday night when I clicked past it. Owner Syncom Media has a long history of this: Transmitter outages were a regular occurrence with the low-power analog stations Syncom operated on channels 30 and 55 before the transition.
post #7818 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmar View Post

Just to be clear, your last sentence seems to imply that you don't have audio issues with the other Channel 28 subchannels. Is that correct?

I just checked and I did not encounter any audio issues on 28.3. But I rarely tune into 28.3. I'll try to remember to check at some other times of the day.

Not really! It is just that the other sub-channels are skipped over, so I very rarely look at them and I have very few observations. I did make a quick check of 28-1, and seemed to have about the same audio issues as 28-3. When I did check, 28-5 did not seem to have the popping problem. The surround decoder had the same volume level shifting between left and right on 28-1 and 28-3. All the volume from 28-5 seemed to be in the center channel. My tuners can detect 28-2, but I did not make any observations about the sound quality
My equipment doesn't specify the detected audio mode, but I wonder if this is telling me that 28-1 and 28-3 are broadcast in stereo (of very poor quality) and 28-5 is mono (of mediocre quality).
post #7819 of 8459
I haven't gotten KLPD for about a year since they adjusted their signal. That was before they added 28-3. The audio on 28-1 was always bad. The audio on 28-2 would sound somewhat like you described until they upped the bit rate and fixed it. Then the picture for 28-2 wouldn't decode on my DTVpal DVR even though HSN showed up fine. (It would give me good picture on my Digital Stream converter box though.) My RCA DTA800B1 would only see 28-1. In short, KLPDs equipment isn't very good.
post #7820 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by davelr View Post

sCARE ???

It is a new generation here... and I never said that Deb was hot.

Don
post #7821 of 8459
Found KHDT-LP broadcasting on 16 two days ago. It was using 16-817.

It was broadcasting just a test pattern.
post #7822 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by donyoop View Post
It is a new generation here... and I never said that Deb was hot.

Don
I'm looking forward to seeing Deb in Real Housewives of Lookout Mountain.
post #7823 of 8459
I suddenly stopped receiving Fox 31 (31-1) on Thursday. Still cant pick up the signal today (Sunday). Anybody else having this issue? I live in Highlands Ranch and used to never ever have a problem with 31-1.
post #7824 of 8459
I've just started reading through this thread. Since the 2nd Anniversary of the digital transition, it's been interesting to revisit messages from two years ago in markets such as Richmond, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Chicago and others where VHF was a problem.

With my attention now on Denver, could one of you please provide a brief "executive summary" of what appears to have been a complex situation in your market? I think I get the essence of the story (low powers and modest HAATs initially) but frequently terms such as "RP", "LCG" and "LOM" (Lookout Mountain?) make some of the posts hard to untangle when you're just jumping in.

Thanks in advance for help on a concise historical narrative.
post #7825 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by ucbedge View Post

I suddenly stopped receiving Fox 31 (31-1) on Thursday. Still cant pick up the signal today (Sunday). Anybody else having this issue? I live in Highlands Ranch and used to never ever have a problem with 31-1.

Fox 31 dropped power on Thursday, but they came back up on Friday. My DTVpal DVR actually came up with a message that said "the signal from this station is temporarily low", indicating it was a planned occurrence. It came back up on Friday and has been the same as usual for my location since.
post #7826 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by re_nelson View Post

I've just started reading through this thread. Since the 2nd Anniversary of the digital transition, it's been interesting to revisit messages from two years ago in markets such as Richmond, Baltimore, Philadelphia, Chicago and others where VHF was a problem.

With my attention now on Denver, could one of you please provide a brief "executive summary" of what appears to have been a complex situation in your market? I think I get the essence of the story (low powers and modest HAATs initially) but frequently terms such as "RP", "LCG" and "LOM" (Lookout Mountain?) make some of the posts hard to untangle when you're just jumping in.

Thanks in advance for help on a concise historical narrative.

re_nelson, I have enjoyed your posts for several years on the Dallas HDTV forum as I am a former engineer at one of the DFW stations (KTVT) and like to follow what has been happening with the DFW stations.

About Denver, LCG is Lake Cedar Group. To be concise and without none of political history for the digital transition that took an act of Congress literally to resolve, below is a link with some information on the LCG facility: http://broadcastengineering.com/be-e...sion-facility/. Denver was the last major US city to have full-power digital in place due to the protracted litigation and legislation over a decade at local, county and federal levels in an attempt to block digital transmissions from Lookout Mountain (LOM) even though substantial analog transmissions had existed for decades from LOM.

As noted, LOM is Lookout Mountain. In the link below, note the towers on the mountain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookout_Mountain_(Colorado).
The mountain is on the west side of metro Denver and is the largest transmitting site (the most TV stations of all the sites) for Denver. However, there are seven transmitting sites for full power TV stations surrounding Denver. From the center point of downtown Denver, transmitting sites are located to the west/southwest (4 sites), southeast (1 site), east (1 site), and north (1 site). This is quite different than the more favorable single area Cedar Hill locations for all of the full power TV stations for DFW.

Other stations outside of the LCG also made the digital transition of their analog transmission facilities on LOM (2 stations). So their existing towers are still in place on LOM while the previous LOM towers of LCG members removed their old towers (3 stations). However, like all mountain top transmitting sites, there is a huge amount of RF facilities on top of LOM including FM stations.
post #7827 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by re_nelson View Post

... Thanks in advance for help on a concise historical narrative.

GE did a terrific job synthesizing what happened... but omitted an answer for "RP." Please allow me:

That's Republic Plaza, a 700-foot-tall downtown Denver office tower whose rooftop was the location for the temporary digital facilities of the LCG stations (CBS/ABC/NBC/MyNet affiliates), plus PBS affiliate KRMA, from ~2001-02 to 2008. The LCG stations began moving to LOM in April of that year; KRMA moved a couple of months later to Mount Morrison. As a transmitter site, RP was problematic for two reasons:

• Downtown Denver is at the bottom of the South Platte Valley, so many suburban locations to the northwest, west, south and east are hundreds of feet or more higher in elevation. Thus, RP's HAAT was at best mediocre even with the antennas hundreds of feet above street level.

• ERPs were typically 10-12 kW, and sometimes less.

These handicaps meant that not a few suburban areas lacked LOS to Republic Plaza. Without LOS, the low power levels made capturing those signals moderately to extremely difficult for a significant number of OTA viewers. Spotty reception was widespread, and some antenna users couldn't lock on to one or more of the stations no matter what they did. As you may imagine, putting up with that while the lawsuits dragged on year after year got to be rather aggravating.
post #7828 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by GE AVS View Post

As noted, LOM is Lookout Mountain. In the link below, note the towers on the mountain: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lookout_Mountain_(Colorado).
The mountain is on the west side of metro Denver and is the largest transmitting site (the most TV stations of all the sites) for Denver. However, there are seven transmitting sites for full power TV stations surrounding Denver. From the center point of downtown Denver, transmitting sites are located to the west/southwest (4 sites), southeast (1 site), east (1 site), and north (1 site). This is quite different than the more favorable single area Cedar Hill locations for all of the full power TV stations for DFW.

Thanks so much. That background makes reviewing the Denver OTA messages much more meaningful to someone far from the metro area.

Now I have just a few followup questions (and these are triggered by your remarks about the exceedingly favorable conditions for OTA here in Dallas by virtue of our terrain, HAATs, powers and, most of all, the single point of transmission at Cedar Hill [except for three LPTVs downtown]).

1). Were the politics (of c-a-r-e) the prime reason why everyone didn't move to Lookout Mountain for digital facilities. Or were there also engineering concerns as well?

2). Could you explain more about the "ice bridge" antenna used by KRMA until August 2009? Was a temporary side mount not possible?

3). I can sort of understand why KDEN and KPJR are at the site near Frederick. But what of KPXC? Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't their analog facility on the west side? Why did they opt to move their digital plant away from where it's easier to capture the other major stations?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_M View Post

That's Republic Plaza, a 700-foot-tall downtown Denver office tower whose rooftop was the location for the temporary digital facilities of the LCG stations (CBS/ABC/NBC/MyNet affiliates), plus PBS affiliate KRMA, from ~2001-02 to 2008. The LCG stations began moving to LOM in April of that year; KRMA moved a couple of months later to Mount Morrison.

Thanks greatly for the "RP" definition. My naive question concerns the so-called coat hanger antenna for KMGH (it will always be KLZ-TV to me ). That picture posted was a gag wasn't it? Although their 1.91 kW facility at 67' HAAT on channel 17 makes me ALMOST think it could have been plausible.

Stepping away from engineering for a moment, given that KBDI and KRMA both target essentially the same audience, does that impact fundraising for them?

(Over the years, our NCE (KERA) has always done reasonably well financially since it has no competition. For several years, North Texas Public Broadcasting had two facilities (KDTN/2 and KERA/13) but, being under the same umbrella, there was no competition between the two. In 2004, KDTN/2 was sold to Daystar, thus fattening NTPB' coffers).
post #7829 of 8459
I'll answer what I can:

Quote:
Originally Posted by re_nelson View Post

Were the politics (of c-a-r-e) the prime reason why everyone didn't move to Lookout Mountain for digital facilities.

Yep.

Quote:


I can sort of understand why KDEN and KPJR are at the site near Frederick. But what of KPXC? Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't their analog facility on the west side? ...

It was. Along with KRMA, KPXC got sick of tangling with "s c a r e" and tired of waiting for a resolution, so they made other plans.

Quote:


My naive question concerns the so-called coat hanger antenna for KMGH ... That picture posted was a gag wasn't it?

Nope. It's among the many reasons why KMGH gets little respect hereabouts.

Quote:


... given that KBDI and KRMA both target essentially the same audience, does that impact fundraising for them?

They don't target quite the same audiences. KRMA is the "flagship" that visitors to Colorado will instantly recognize as a PBS affiliate. KBDI is an "alternative" outlet whose PBS offerings are second-run shows. KBDI's main focus has long been public affairs and commentary. As such, it has talk and news shows ranging from far left to far right and from strictly about Denver to those with a world-wide view. It's long been the settled view that both would be financially far better off by joining forces, but the cultures at each station are so radically different that both sides know it would never work.
post #7830 of 8459
Quote:
Originally Posted by re_nelson View Post

Thanks so much. That background makes reviewing the Denver OTA messages much more meaningful to someone far from the metro area.

Now I have just a few followup questions (and these are triggered by your remarks about the exceedingly favorable conditions for OTA here in Dallas by virtue of our terrain, HAATs, powers and, most of all, the single point of transmission at Cedar Hill [except for three LPTVs downtown]).

1). Were the politics (of c-a-r-e) the prime reason why everyone didn't move to Lookout Mountain for digital facilities. Or were there also engineering concerns as well?

2). Could you explain more about the "ice bridge" antenna used by KRMA until August 2009? Was a temporary side mount not possible?

3). I can sort of understand why KDEN and KPJR are at the site near Frederick. But what of KPXC? Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't their analog facility on the west side? Why did they opt to move their digital plant away from where it's easier to capture the other major stations?
...

CARE often referred to as sCARE in this forum was undoubtedly the driving force for all of this. The NIMBY Luddites who made up that group did everything they could to block any progress.
A side mount antenna would have worked fine for KRMA, but they feared action by CARE would delay it. They thought they could get a usable signal and avoid legal barriers by placing an antenna on the ice bridge between the tower and the transmitter building. For many of us, that was not true. The terrain immediately north (and a few degrees east of the transmitter building) was higher than the ice bridge and included the KPXC analog transmitter building. The result was a weak and intermittent signal for much of the "Ls". Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, and Loveland are all on roughly the same line from the ice bridge location on Mount Morrison. Fort Collins was effected too, but that is no fun, because it doesn't start with L.
It is generally believed that KPXC moved to its present location to avoid CARE also.
KBDI has a marginal location on Squaw mountain. I suspect they were trying to avoid CARE or people of a similar mind set. The KBDI analog tower was on Squaw mountain, so I could be wrong on that. I don't recall a discusion of the decision process for the KBDI analog transmitter.

IMHO: The actions of sCARE resulted in a significant waste of money, less than optimum decissions, and OTA coverage for Denver Metro that will probably never be as good as it should have been.

Sorry for any duplication. I don't actually type, so Don_M was able to post his message while I was composing mine.
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