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post #7831 of 8264
The KMGH coat hanger antenna picture was a gag. But plausible.


Hey, my first top of the page in 10 years!
post #7832 of 8264
Thanks to all for giving me background on the ordeals of OTA in the Denver market. I appreciate the responses from MalcolmG, kenavs, Don_M and, of course, GE AVS).

Going back through the other markets around the time of the DTV transition has been interesting but Denver stands out as among the most "interesting" (in the Chinese curse sense of that word). Probably Philadelphia with the notorious "hair dryer" comment of WPVI's Hank Volpe ranks second in that regard.

As GE AVS can attest, here in Dallas-Ft. Worth, things were pretty boring (in the "good" sense of that word). We had a little dustup with CBS O&O KTVT when they moved back to RF-11 but that was remedied just weeks later when they lit up on RF-19. Belo's WFAA caused a few problems for some on RF-8 but they later powered up to 55 kW at 1673' HAAT and seem to be doing fine.

(I'll avoid my usual rant of beating the well-flogged dead horse about KFWD on RF-9 with a co-channel a scant 92 miles away).
post #7833 of 8264
Thanks Bob for livening up the thread. And, thank you to those who contributed to the history leason. I'm relatively new to Denver OTA (November 2009). I sure wish KPXC broadcast from LOM, then I could get it.
post #7834 of 8264
I don't have much to add except to say that it was a real PITA to have to swap out a UHF-only antenna for a UHF+VHF antenna (luckily only high-VHF which kept the size down). But I doubt we're the only market that had that problem.
post #7835 of 8264
Okay, here is a question. With all the different broadcast sites, how difficult is it to pull in the majority on a single antenna (no rotor)? I'm basically in line with KRMA and Lookout Mountain and pull in KBDI from the translator on Cheyenne Mountain (Colorado Springs), but for the people in Denver Metro it's like you're surrounded by different signals coming from different directions.
post #7836 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by dkreichen1968 View Post

Okay, here is a question. With all the different broadcast sites, how difficult is it to pull in the majority on a single antenna (no rotor)? I'm basically in line with KRMA and Lookout Mountain and pull in KBDI from the translator on Cheyenne Mountain (Colorado Springs), but for the people in Denver Metro it's like you're surrounded by different signals coming from different directions.

I live slightly North of LOM, I didn't know that the final frequencies for the stations were moving back to the VHF high band when DTV became official, so I had to buy a VHF antenna after they moved, I also wanted channels from the north (RF43, 59). So I have Three antennas, two pointed South-West to get the LOM & Mt Morrison channels and One pointed North-East for KPXC. Unfortunately the wind tends to mess with the delicate alignment, I have to re-aim them occasionally.
post #7837 of 8264
Don_M, thanks for the good summary on "RP". There has been good information from many as re_nelson noted.

There is another full authorized power station on LOM that I forgot to mention - KCEC (V50/RF51 - 900 kW ERP horizontal) whose antenna is mounted on KWGN's (V2/RF34) tower at 128 feet AGL. I just can't remember if their analog was there - anybody remember? BTW, HAAT on LOM can be misleading since the measurement radials for HAAT may have higher elevations to the west and will be lower to the east.

Also, the Frederick/Firestone antenna farm area (two major towers, 3 TVs, several FMs) north of downtown Denver is a good location to service most of Denver and to the north the cities of Loveland, Ft. Collins and Greeley with good RF level LOS signals. rc_nelson, you might be interested to know there is a heavy concentration of oil and gas wells surrounding the Firestone site. Sorta looks and feels like north of Ft. Worth along US 287 near Decatur. Yep, that's the same US 287 that runs through Denver. Hm? I wonder if "Six Degrees of Separation" exists for highways and cities?

Also, the engineering staff for KDEN (V25/RF29) on the Firestone tower operate out of San Antonio, TX with local Denver studio operations. Our world just keeps getting smaller!
post #7838 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by kenavs View Post

CARE often referred to as sCARE in this forum was undoubtedly the driving force for all of this. The NIMBY Luddites who made up that group did everything they could to block any progress.
A side mount antenna would have worked fine for KRMA, but they feared action by CARE would delay it. They thought they could get a usable signal and avoid legal barriers by placing an antenna on the ice bridge between the tower and the transmitter building. For many of us, that was not true. The terrain immediately north (and a few degrees east of the transmitter building) was higher than the ice bridge and included the KPXC analog transmitter building. The result was a weak and intermittent signal for much of the "Ls". Louisville, Lafayette, Longmont, and Loveland are all on roughly the same line from the ice bridge location on Mount Morrison. Fort Collins was effected too, but that is no fun, because it doesn't start with L.

Note that RMPBS still has what is now the low-gain "stand-by" antenna on the ice bridge at Mt. Morrison. An early agreement with the site ownership/manager group, Bear Creek Development, required that the antenna on the ice bridge be removed when the high-gain antenna became operational. However, BCD has acquiesced to a request to leave the antenna in place for back-up purposes until such time as another paying tenant requires the space.

The Axcera transmitter that was originally in place in the lower level of the transmitter building was moved upstairs, and resides along side the Harris PowerCD IOT transmitter. The transmitters are connected to the high-gain antenna via a switch. Should the low-gain antenna on the ice bridge be required due to catastrophic failure of the main antenna, RMPBS (KRMA along the Front Range) would have to plumb a final link between the ice bridge antenna and either transmitter. Estimated down time would be 1 1/2 hours from start of travel.

There are two microwave paths for KRMA to the site: A 7-GHz ASI path, and a 13-GHz SMPTE 310 path. Each path is DA'd and feeds the ASI and 310 inputs to each of the transmitters. The PowerCD transmitter has two M2X exciters, each with an ASI and 310 input. The transmitter auto switches between the exciters, and each exciter auto switches between the ASI and 310 inputs.

The Axcera transmitter has 310 inputs only. However, a leg of the DA'd ASI path runs through an ASI>310 convertor, and the Axcera exciter then receives two 310 signals.

RMPBS has 5 transmitters (3 fully operational studio facilities and offices), and 25 translators in Colorado. Fiber paths run from the KRMA master control in Denver to KTSC-Pueblo/Colorado Springs studios and to KRMJ-Grand Junction studios. Each "studio" has STL's feeding their respective transmitter sites. A fiber path from KRMJ feeds the KRMU-Durango. Fiber runs to the transmission site, and an STL path is no longer used.

KRMA has two translators: One in Boulder and one in Ft. Collins. Both receive their feeds via OTA reception from Mt. Morrison

KRMZ-Steamboat Springs receives the KRMA feed via satellite reception at the transmission site, and the former STL path from the valley floor has been removed.

KTSC has about 11 translators in its system, mostly fed via OTA reception. However, there are a couple of microwave relays in place. One of them, from Salida to the New Mexico border, is one of the longest microwave paths in the U. S. used for television. A quick Google Earth check shows the 2-GHz path as being roughly 110 miles.

KRMJ has about 12 translators in its system. There are a few microwave relays in the system. Note that the Crawford, Colorado site is being converted to digital today, June 23rd. It is the final translator in the RMPBS system to be converted. A new antenna is being hung as part of the package. Note that a 4-WD forklift yesterday could not make it up the steep "road" at the edge of a cliff, and tower crews will have to pulley and winch the antenna up by hand today.

TC AVS
post #7839 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by GE AVS View Post

Also, the Frederick/Firestone antenna farm area (two major towers, 3 TVs, several FMs) north of downtown Denver is a good location to service most of Denver and to the north the cities of Loveland, Ft. Collins and Greeley with good RF level LOS signals. rc_nelson, you might be interested to know there is a heavy concentration of oil and gas wells surrounding the Firestone site. Sorta looks and feels like north of Ft. Worth along US 287 near Decatur. Yep, that's the same US 287 that runs through Denver. Hm? I wonder if "Six Degrees of Separation" exists for highways and cities?

Separation of highways, eh? How about I-76? I'm originally from Pittsburgh and that big separation of that designated interstate (known as the PA Turnpike as it bisects the state) has intrigued me (I'm a highway nerd as well as a broadcast geek).
post #7840 of 8264
Maybe this has been around for a while, but I just found the Brite View BV980H Digital HD DVR with a 320GB hard drive and a USB port. It isn't cheap ($200.00) but its nice to see something designed for the OTA market.
post #7841 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vanr View Post

Maybe this has been around for a while, but I just found the Brite View BV980H Digital HD DVR with a 320GB hard drive and a USB port. It isn't cheap ($200.00) but its nice to see something designed for the OTA market.

I think that it was just released. Solid Signal has been pushing it in their e-mail ads, and replaced the CM-7000pal with it in their line up. I think the guide is PSIP only and it is single tuner. But, with the hard drive being USB expandable you can record a lot. I still remember when stereo VCRs dropped under $200 (not that many years ago), so $200 isn't bad. It is small, not much larger than the remote. The main thing is I haven't yet seen a single review.

Brite-Views page here: http://www.brite-view.com/980h.php
post #7842 of 8264
Greetings,

I just dropped cable and switched to OTA with my MythTV box. I pick up EIT/EPG data for all of the other stations (KRMA, KDVR, KCNC, etc. all with good signal quality), but nothing for KUSA (Denver Channel 9, NBC Affiliate). I double-checked for the absence of program information using my DTV. After re-scanning for channels and sitting on 9.1 for one-hour I still didn't have any episode data.

Does KUSA not broadcast their programming data OTA or do they have the hidden flag set or something else odd?

Thank you for your reply,
Brian
post #7843 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by bkloppenborg View Post

Does KUSA not broadcast their programming data OTA ...

Welcome, Brian,

Both KMGH and KUSA encountered problems with their EPGs about mid-week. Prior to that, both stations' EPGs had been unwaveringly reliable. Channel 7 got their issue fixed in a day or so. Channel 9's lengthier outage suggests they're awaiting the arrival of either a replacement component or a vendor's technician to straighten out a software issue. A phone call to the engineering department to inquire about when the issue might be resolved would be in order.

"Not broadcasting" an EPG is not an option, BTW: The FCC requires full-power broadcasters like KUSA to provide a guide for at least 12 hours' worth of upcoming programming, so this situation is most assuredly temporary.
post #7844 of 8264
FYI


"Microsoft turns to unused TV airwaves to solve spectrum crisis"


http://news.cnet.com/8301-30686_3-20...ectrum-crisis/
post #7845 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_M View Post

Channel 9's lengthier outage suggests they're awaiting the arrival of either a replacement component or a vendor's technician to straighten out a software issue.

I'm happy to report KUSA's EPG is back up and running normally.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_M View Post

"Not broadcasting" an EPG is not an option, BTW: The FCC requires full-power broadcasters like KUSA to provide a guide for at least 12 hours' worth of upcoming programming, so this situation is most assuredly temporary.

That's what I thought, good to know my memory about the FCC standards was right.

Thank you for your reply.
Brian
post #7846 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by GE AVS View Post

FYI


"Microsoft turns to unused TV airwaves to solve spectrum crisis"


http://news.cnet.com/8301-30686_3-20...ectrum-crisis/

Interesting. So, where do they find white space in the TV spectrum in markets like NY, LA or Chicago, where congestion is greatest, and so is demand for broadband spectrum?

Consider LA: 38 UHF channels in the TV frequencies. 3 are taken for Land Mobile, 1 for Radio Astronomy, 22 for Full-Power TV, and 3 for Class A TV. That leaves 9 channels, and 4 are immediately adjacent to the Land Mobile channels. Of the 5 remaining, 3 have LD licenses or CPs.

The "white space" salvation seems awfully lacking.
post #7847 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhett View Post

Interesting. So, where do they find white space in the TV spectrum in markets like NY, LA or Chicago, where congestion is greatest, and so is demand for broadband spectrum?

Consider LA: 38 UHF channels in the TV frequencies. 3 are taken for Land Mobile, 1 for Radio Astronomy, 22 for Full-Power TV, and 3 for Class A TV. That leaves 9 channels, and 4 are immediately adjacent to the Land Mobile channels. Of the 5 remaining, 3 have LD licenses or CPs.

The "white space" salvation seems awfully lacking.

Plus "white space" use is only allowed above channel 20, and there are reserved channels for wireless microphones. Oh, and we're still going to have "white space" if the FCC takes 20 channels!? The fact is that "white space" would work great for rural areas, where there isn't much TV, but cities? There are two power levels, that can be used depending on congestion. Since there will be a database fee it will be prohibitive to use it for home networks.
post #7848 of 8264
What the non-engineer FCC Commissioners have apparently completely ignored in their rush to repurpose spectrum aka as "spectrum grab" is the inefficient use of the proposed repurposed spectrum.

When one calculates the math for a quarter wave antenna length that is four inches long, i.e., approximately the length of an iPhone, the frequency is 700 MHz which is the within the frequency range of Channel 52 (698-704 MHz). Any repurposed TV channel below 52 will have to have an increasingly longer antenna as the frequency (channel) lowers to achieve maximum transmission/receive efficency. An extended length antenna is of course not going to happen in a four inch device like the iPhone, so the actual effective use of any repurposed frequencies lower than 700 MHz will be limited. Thus, it makes little sense to use any frequency below 700 MHz for broadband service cellphone use.

The FCC Commissioners continue to make poor decisions based on their apparent lack of knowledge of basic electronic principles and I assume their inability or refusal to listen to their engineering staff in The Office of Engineering and Technology of the FCC. There has been federal legislation proposed that each Commissioner be required to have an engineer on their professional staff (each commissoner is presently allowed three professionals and all are either lawyers or economists). However, based on the recent actions and statements of the FCC Commissioners, I doubt they would listen to their staff engineering professional if added to their professional staff.
post #7849 of 8264
The conclusion came first - TV will give up 120 MHz of spectrum - then the studies. I'm not an engineer, or involved with television in any manner other than having a casual interest, and even I understand what a bad idea this is. This is willful ignorance of the facts on the part of FCC Commissioners in support of a predetermined outcome. Central planning at its finest.
post #7850 of 8264
This has been posted on other threads, but since we have been talking about the spectrum grab, I'll post it here also. If this proves to be true it will change the communications world as we know it.

From The Article:
Quote:
A few years ago, Steve Perlman, the CEO of broadband streaming game company OnLive gave an interesting talk about the compression, latency and other delivery challenges faced by pushing that much streaming data to subscribers. A few years later (and after a successful launch of the service) Perlman returned to give a follow up talk at Columbia University, and the video of his presentation is again interesting to watch -- albeit this time for somewhat different reasons.

At around fifty-five minutes, Perlman drops something particularly interesting: he notes that another of his companies (Rearden) has managed to find away around Shannon's Law -- which lays the groundrules for limitations on networks and wireless spectrum. According to Perlman, they've developed new radios capable of getting ten times the potential usage Shannon's Law insists is possible, and 100 times what current wireless networks are doing using the exact-same spectrum.

Of particular interest is Perlman claims the radios he's using are actually simpler than current radios. They're also currently capable of 30 mile transmissions, and Perlman believes the devices may be capable of amazing 250 mile wireless broadband transmissions. That means that his company may have not only seriously delivered a killing blow to congestion issues, but created a potential for much more robust networks that could aid this country's coverage and competition issues. If Perlman's capable of following through on this and his findings can be verified, his company may have just revolutionized wireless.

Posted Here: OnLive CEO May Have Just Revolutionized Wireless - Developed New, Simpler Radios That Laugh at Shannon's Law | DSLReports.com, ISP Information
post #7851 of 8264
They played around with this last week, but they appear to be on the air for good now (well they've been broadcasting since about 11AM). For now they appear to just be repeating KMGH's broadcast. I have no idea what their long term plan is with this station. They are broadcasting from Lookout Mountain with 15KW ERP on RF17. Most people would have no idea that they are doing this, depending on the behavior of their tuner, since there is no difference between the RF7 broadcast and RF17 broadcast at this point. My DTT901 would duplicate things so I would have two 7.1's, two 7.2's, etc. but others will just choose only one.

I guess this means no more DX reception of KLBY in Colby, Kansas.
post #7852 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmar View Post

They played around with this last week, but they appear to be on the air for good now (well they've been broadcasting since about 11AM). For now they appear to just be repeating KMGH's broadcast. I have no idea what their long term plan is with this station. They are broadcasting from Lookout Mountain with 15KW ERP on RF17. Most people would have no idea that they are doing this, depending on the behavior of their tuner, since there is no difference between the RF7 broadcast and RF17 broadcast at this point. My DTT901 would duplicate things so I would have two 7.1's, two 7.2's, etc. but others will just choose only one.

I guess this means no more DX reception of KLBY in Colby, Kansas.

Just FYI, my DTVpal DVR added the extra channels yesterday. I'm in Monument, 49 miles and second edge from LOM with an attic antenna (homebuilt Gray-Hoverman). I didn't check to see how good the signal was, just deleted them since they are repeats. I'll check signal quality/strength tonight.

Update: Signal strength/quality on the DTVpal DVR is 63% and 34% on my Digital Stream DTX9950.
post #7853 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by dhett View Post

The conclusion came first - TV will give up 120 MHz of spectrum - then the studies. I'm not an engineer, or involved with television in any manner other than having a casual interest, and even I understand what a bad idea this is. This is willful ignorance of the facts on the part of FCC Commissioners in support of a predetermined outcome. Central planning at its finest.

SBE rejects FCC Fixed Service proposals for 7GHz, 13GHz bands
http://broadcastengineering.com/news...ands_07072011/
post #7854 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmar View Post

They played around with this last week, but they appear to be on the air for good now (well they've been broadcasting since about 11AM). For now they appear to just be repeating KMGH's broadcast. I have no idea what their long term plan is with this station. They are broadcasting from Lookout Mountain with 15KW ERP on RF17. Most people would have no idea that they are doing this, depending on the behavior of their tuner...

McG-H terminated the TV Azteca broadcast that was on channel 27. Imho, moving it to the LD on 17 was the plan all along. Apparently, their negotiations with a defunct religious broadcaster in Boulder over the co-channel issue were resolved successfully.

FWIW, my tuner's found-channel list shows it as "KMGH-TV" on channels 17.3 through 17.6 along with "KMGH-TV" on 7.1 through 7.4. Aren't they supposed to be displaying KZCO-LD, even if the station isn't required to generate a program guide? All the other LDs (KDEO, KLPD, etc.) seem to do so.

You have my condolences on your loss of KLBY. That's quite a feat...
post #7855 of 8264
Another problem with the FCC's broadband push.

Per below, this directly affects all TV broadcasters as the reference clock system for ATSC is GPS (Adjusted with offset to display UTC - GPS & UTC are not the same time as UTC is adjusted to reflect the slowing rotation of the earth. GPS has no adjustment.). The broadcasters' internal clock/synchronization systems are referenced/locked to GPS.

"FCC report says it causes GPS interference, so LightSquared files alternative plan"

http://broadcastengineering.com/news...lan/index.html
post #7856 of 8264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don_M View Post

McG-H terminated the TV Azteca broadcast that was on channel 27. Imho, moving it to the LD on 17 was the plan all along. Apparently, their negotiations with a defunct religious broadcaster in Boulder over the co-channel issue were resolved successfully.

FWIW, my tuner's found-channel list shows it as "KMGH-TV" on channels 17.3 through 17.6 along with "KMGH-TV" on 7.1 through 7.4. Aren't they supposed to be displaying KZCO-LD, even if the station isn't required to generate a program guide? All the other LDs (KDEO, KLPD, etc.) seem to do so.

You have my condolences on your loss of KLBY. That's quite a feat...

In the Colorado Springs area KOAA is broadcasting the same programming and channel map on both their main transmitter (RF 42) and the old channel 30 translator. Both transmitters are located on Cheyenne Mountain. (KOAAs analog transmitter was in Pueblo.) Both show up as KOAA 5-1,5-2. The original plan was to reprogram channel 30 as its own channel, but I don't know what the plan is now.
post #7857 of 8264
The Future of TV

Quote:


The Future of TV: Protecting Viewers and Preserving Broadcast Spectrum

This is a critical time for broadcasters. Congressional and Federal Communications Commission (FCC) proposals to reallocate spectrum continue to be one of the greatest game-changing issue facing stations.

Currently, House, Senate and White House leaders are negotiating national debt ceiling legislation, which may include spectrum incentive auction authority.

Broadcasters want to ensure that any spectrum policy protects TV viewers by ensuring they do not lose the valuable services local stations provide or hinder ongoing or future innovations.

Educating viewers. Educating policymakers.

In January, NAB launched an incredibly successful on-air campaign to put broadcasters on the offensive as the new Congress took office. Through The Future of TV campaign, free, local broadcasters proved that we will effectively use our medium to educate our audience if government regulations threaten our ability to serve our listeners and viewers.

We need your help again.

The timeline for reaching a deal on the debt ceiling legislation is August 2 unless an extension is secured. This leaves a short window where our primary television advocacy issue may be decided, and we must work to ensure any inclusion of spectrum policy in this debate also includes the protections we are advocating.

The time has come to take to the airwaves again to educate television viewers and radio listeners about the threat to local TV and encourage them to contact their members of Congress.

NAB is providing the tools and resources you will need for this on-air campaign. You will find links to television and radio spots on the right-hand side of this page on Friday, July 15. We're asking all stations to air these spots as often as possible between now and August 2 to send a strong message to members of Congress.

http://www.nab.org/television/thefutureoftv.asp

http://www.thefutureoftv.org/

Take Action: http://thefutureoftv.org/action.asp
post #7858 of 8264
Spanish language station KDEN 25 is now in 1080i HD on 25.1 and 480i SD on 25.2 (color bars displaying on 25.2).
post #7859 of 8264
FCC Broadband Push Threatens Food Supply

"John Deere fights broadband that disrupts GPS"
http://www.usatoday.com/money/compan...er-fight_n.htm
post #7860 of 8264
Why spectrum debate is tied to debt ceiling plan


http://news.cnet.com/8301-30686_3-20...-ceiling-plan/
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