Denver, CO - OTA - Page 263

Hello everyone. This is my first time posting. I just moved into a new house which I had pre-wired for an HDTV antenna. The coaxial line runs from the attic to an OnQ box on the first floor, which I believe then feeds coaxial to the rest of the house. Due to my lack of knowledge, I would really appreciate any and all advise you can offer regarding which antenna(s) I should be looking into for installation in my attic location. Thanks in advance for your help.

http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3e479fc9ec50d9

You're in the same general area of town I'm in and I'd guess from your zip that you might be in the Stapleton area. If you're going to the trouble of putting in a unit in your attic, it'd be best to get an antenna designed to pick up high VHF (ch 7-13) as well as UHF. This is because both Channels 7 & 9 are broadcast on high VHF and will definitely come in better using this type of antenna. I have such a unit in my attic.

A possible problem, though, is if you're in new construction your attic may be trussed to within an inch of it's life and space to hang a high VHF antenna might be tough. I was fortunate in that my (older) house doesn't have a trussed roof and there was loads of room to work with. I'd go up there and see what kind of situation you've got before buying anything.

@Davelr - Thanks.

I am in Stapleton near the Bladium gym. I referenced some pictures of the framing, and luckily it looks like I have room for a decent sized antenna. I anticipate spending up to $400, but can spend more if necessary to improve the variety of channels and the picture quality. Are there antennas that come to mind? Is there any additional equipment that I may need besides the antenna?

I'm not an antenna expert or anything, but I don't think you'll have to spend anywhere near that much. I spent about $75 for mine and some of the guys on this forum kind of chuckled at me. I gather that you can get good units for less even perhaps at Radio Hack.

I'm not familiar with the On-Q box, but if it has an amplifier function I think you should be ok. If not and depending on how many cables you're splitting the signal into, you may need to add an amplifier. I'd wait on that until you see what type of reception and signal strength you get.

Your main issue is that the main network stations are to the west of you and Ion and TBN are to the north of you. You could use an antenna with a rotor. The disadvantage of that is you have to rotate the antenna for the different station groups, which isn't great if your running a DVR. One possiblity is using a omni-directional antenna like a Metrostar, but those tend to have problems with multi-path. Another possiblity would be using multiple antennas. The problem with that is when you join two unfiltered antennas the antenna pointed one direction retransmits signal from the other antenna resulting in signal loss. Tin-Lee ( http://www.tinlee.com/index.php ) makes custom filters, but that could take a big part of your budget.

With the strong signals in your area you may be able to do a three antenna system. A high band VHF antenna pointed west and two UHF antennas. Point one UHF antenna west, and one north, combine the signals using a normal splitter joiner, and then combine those signals with the VHF antenna with a UVSJ (UHF VHF Splitter Joiner).

VHF Hi antennas

http://www.radioshack.com/product/in...uctId=11000531

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...rStream5)&c=TV Antennas&sku=

UVSJ

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...UVSJ)&c=Signal Combiners&sku=

UHF antennas

http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...na-(43XG)&c=TV Antennas&sku=

I'm suggesting the 43XG because of the narrow beam angle to prevent the chances of multipath. Also it's high gain to overcome the loss of the splitter.

The folks who live in your area may have better educated guesses.

FYI MetroStar http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...-(MS1000)&c=TV Antennas&sku=

And KBDI 12 transmitting on VHF RF 13. And there is an outside chance of receiving KQCK 33 (VHF RF11) transmitting from Horsetooth Mtn. above Ft. Collins (Spanish language, licensed to Cheyenne, which shares programing with low power KQDK-CA 39 (UHF RF39), licensed to Aurora).

I live in Stapleton, near 29th. I bought this antenna from Amazon a couple years ago. Have it in my attic and it works OK. I can get all of the major local networks (2, 4, 6, 7, 9, 12, 31). ION is sometimes spotty but I don't watch it much. I've had a couple of occasions where I had to send my husband back up to the attic to "adjust" the antenna, but it's been over a year since he's been up there. If I had to do it again, I would buy a larger/better antenna. But my point is that I only spent around $35 and it's been working for me for over 2 years now.

In deference to the many consumer antenna aficianados here, Rocky Mountain PBS has a viewer up Coal Creek Canyon (Highway 72) that is on the edge of signal coverage as reported my Longley-Rice mapping. He is on Copperdale Lane a quarter mile south of Highway 72.

The viewer has seen the RMPBS signal before. The viewer has an outdoor antenna (make/model?) on his deck, and it is accessible. The viewer has been advised to extend the height of his antenna, use the strength meter on his OTA converter box to dial in the antenna rotation, and perform double-scans on his box.

I promised the viewer that I would inquire about a good antenna, not knowing what he has now. I note that there is a mountain/rise in the terrain just southeast of him that is 250 feet higher than his house. The RMPBS antenna is 260-feet up its tower, and may negate much of the offending rise southeast of the viewer's house. Again, signal is right on the edge.

Antenna make/model suggestions that could be passed on??

TC AVS

@waltzonice - It's good to know that I want have to spend anywhere near $400 to get HDTV OTA. Maybe the additional funds I have can be used for a DVR. I've been given some good options so I'll look into those first. How do I know whether I'll need a pre-amplifier?

Would a pre-amplifier like this work?

Based on that info here is the approximated TVfool report: http://www.tvfool.com/?option=com_wr...3e47fb5fdf4afa

Any idea if the viewer is consistently receiving or has received V14/RF15 which is broadcast from the same tower as V6/RF18? I am thinking the viewer is affected by seasonal variations in diffraction of the V6/RF18 signal.

The Winegard preamps are high quality preamps. I owned one for many years and it was quite effective. However, when I upgraded to a Channel Master 7777 there was a slight improvement. I believe the Channel Master 7775 and 7777 have one of the best noise figures you will find in a mass produced preamp. There are better preamps out there, but they are typically a lot more expensive for not much improvement, although that improvement could make or break reception of a channel in an extreme fringe situation.

Since you are not in an extreme fringe situation I would recommend you go with the CM 7775 or 7777. The only significant difference between the two is that the 7777 has more gain. Whether or not you need that additional gain will depend on what kind of splitter you have in the onQ box. How many outputs does the splitter have? Another factor is the length of the cable runs. Most likely the CM 7775 will be more than adequate.

One issue is that you need to provide power to the preamp. The preamp comes with a power inserter that you typically install near your TV. However, if there is a splitter between the TV and the preamp then you need to make sure that the splitter can pass DC voltage. Some splitters do not pass DC at all. Some pass it only on one output (so you may need to rearrange the connections in order to install the power inserter at the most convenient location).

Another option is you could install the power inserter somewhere between the splitter in the OnQ box and the preamp, depending on availability of 120V AC power.

I don't know -- we aren't using any sort of amplifiers at the moment. I'll have to ask my husband for the specifics, but this is what I think he did. There is a conduit from the attic to the basement where the builder had put the box for all of the audio/video pre-wiring. He ran a coax thru that conduit and hooked up the coax to that box. Currently we have 2 large HDTV's in the house - and we use that same antenna for both TVs and we haven't had any problems even with both TVs on. We may be adding a 3rd TV soon, and at that point we may need some kind of amplification.

Sorry this is completely off topic... I've been using the Dish DTVPal DVR for 1.5 years now and it's worked really well. It has 2 tuners so that I can watch one show and record another, or record 2 shows and watch a 3rd recorded show. It's not anywhere near as nice of a interface as a Tivo, but I didn't really want to pay the monthly fees of Tivo. All in all I've been real happy with it. I bought it for about $270 from Sears but unfortunately they don't make it any more. Perhaps you can find one on eBay. I believe ChannelMaster has some kind of equivalent that is a little bit more expensive. Bottom line is that if you want a DVR for OTA without having to pay any fees (like Tivo), the choices are very limited.

Here is the forum for the Dish DTVPal:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1099071

@jsmar - This is the splitter that was installed by the builder. The specific one I have is the "1x8 Passive Video Module, 1Ghz". I'll only need two of the outlets live with an antenna feed. The outlet on the 1st floor is probably 30' away while the outlet upstairs is 40' - 50'. The way everything is wired currently: a coaxial cable runs from the attic to a 28" OnQ box in a storage closet on the first floor. There are three bedrooms, a loft and a media niche that all have coaxial ran from the OnQ box to pre-wired outlets. Looks like I have a couple of options when installing the Preamplifier. Antenna > Pre-Amplifier > Passive Video Module (Splitter) > Wall Outlets > Television or Antenna > Passive Video Module (Splitter) > Wall Outlet > Pre-Amplifier > Television. Also, I do have a 120V AC outlet in the OnQ box (2 plugs), but I was hoping to place my modem and router/switch in there. Makes me wish I had more outlets installed : )

@waltzonice - I only plan on having two televisions connected to the antenna feed as well. It sounds like your setup is close to what I'm looking to do. Good to know that there isn't much signal degradation.

I've got a Dish DTVpal DVR also, and it has worked well for me. The Channel Master CM-7000pal DVR is the exact same hardware with Channel Master labeling and firmware. They are manufactured by Echostar. $300 through Walmart.com.

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Channel-Ma...D-DVR/13968952

Something you need to be aware of is that you have the same amount of signal loss from a splitter whether all the outputs are hooked to something or not. Therefore, it would be best to replace that 8 way splitter with a two way if your only running two TVs.

The second option above does not make sense. The whole idea of an Antenna preamp is that you install it right at the Antenna, i.e. it should be installed in the attic with the antenna. It is the power inserter for the preamp that you can install elsewhere (so that you don't require power in the attic). Looking at the documentation for your splitter it does not appear to be able to pass DC voltage, so you probably need to install the power inserter in or adjacent to your OnQ box. The connections would look like this: Antenna > very short cable > Antenna Preamp > cable down to OnQ box > Preamp Power inserter > short cable to Passive Video Module > Passive Video Module > cables to wall outlets > Wall outlets.

The whole idea is to preserve the quality of the signal your antenna receives BEFORE it suffers the signal loss of long cable runs and splitters. Note that it doesn't matter how many TV's you connect to the splitter, the fact that you have an 8 way splitter means that you lose 12 db going through the splitter. Then when you add a 100 foot or more of cable (it sounds like it may be more than 50 feet from your attic to the OnQ box, and then another 40-50 feet back upstairs to one of your connections) you are going to lose another 5-7 db, depending on the quality of the cable (the lower figure would be for quad shield cable).

So, given the above I would recommend the CM7777 over the CM7775. The only reason not to use a CM7777 is that the gain can be too large, and a nearby signal (FM or TV) could be too strong and overload the input on your TV. With losses in the range of 20 db in your system that should not be an issue.

I was not aware of this. I also have a 8 way splitter in my house that was installed by the builder. We had unhooked all of the unused cables, leaving just the two that is actually being used. If what you say is true, then I am amazed that my $35 antenna in my attic is working so well with no amplification. I currently have 2 HDTV's hooked up and both have been working very well. I'm getting signal strengths in the 80's and 90's on both TV's.

Most TV's signal meters are not true signal strength meters, but are instead signal to noise meters (which are more useful in general). So your signal strength may be fairly low, but still high enough to get good reception, especially since you are not that far from the transmitters. Another factor is that the tuners in new digital TV's benefit from better and better DSP's and can perform almost miraculous signal recovery.

But the signal loss from an 8 way splitter is fairly significant, and that doesn't even take into account the cable losses. There may be some stations you aren't even seeing (there's a very small window in the "digital cliff" region between perfect reception and no reception where you get bad reception. If you're happy with your current station selection then you don't need to do anything. You can use tvfool.com to figure out what stations you might be missing that you could potentially receive, and decide if it is worth making any changes.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm new to off-the-air so my knowledge base isn't quite there. After talking to Denny with www.dennysantennaservice.com, I'm leaning towards either his "Up-7" or "HD Stacker" antenna. Either of those along with the recommended CM7777 or Weingard 8780 should do the trick. Although separate UHF and VHF antennas sounds nice, I like the simplicity of one antenna and don't mind missing the channels to the southeast. I went through descriptions of each channel and believe I wouldn't watch them even if I did receive them. Are there splitters out there that have signal loss less than 12db, or is that more a function of splitting the signal to begin with and the length of the cable runs?

FYI, Denny's Up-7 is just a Winegard HD7000R without the long low VHF dipoles on the back, and the HD Stacker would be way overkill in your situation. Denny has a reputation for way overselling people.

Winegard HD7000R: http://www.solidsignal.com/pview.asp...(HD7000R)&c=TV Antennas&sku=

A good 2 way splitter has 3.5 dBs of loss. So, if you were to replace the 8 way with a 2 way you would gain 8.5 dBs of signal.

That's a pretty big difference in signal loss between what I currently have installed and one that can be purchased separately. I know I asked earlier and you responded with several recommendations for separate VHF and UHF antennas, but do you have a favorite antenna that picks up VHF/high VHF/and UHF that would be good for my situation? For some reason, I don't think the wife would be with 3 antennas needing to be purchased. Thanks.

If you are not going to install an antenna preamp then switching from an 8-way to a 2-way splitter would make a lot of sense. If you install a high gain antenna preamp like the CM7777 then I don't think the 8-way splitter will be much of an issue. Perhaps you should consider how many TV's or other devices (digital DVR?) you will be adding to the mix in the future. The CM7777 gives you the flexibility of keeping all your rooms connected and allowing you to plug in another TV without having to change anything in the future.

That HD stacker antenna looks like a UHF antenna stacked with a high VHF antenna. You said you looked at some pictures of the framing. Do you have the height necessary to install that thing indoors?

Note, you don't need an antenna that has low VHF capability, since there are no Denver area stations in the low VHF range. Winegard makes a nice selection of five High VHF/UHF antenna's, the HD 7694P, HD 7695P, HD7696P, HD 7697P and HD7698P, which range in price from $47 to $122 at Solid Signal. The HD7694P would probably work fine, but I'm always an advocate of installing the biggest that will fit when installing in an attic, unless you are on a shoe string budget. Note that if your attic isn't aligned in the direction of Lookout Mountain that you might benefit from a smaller antenna if you want to aim it properly (depending on how off-axis you are). Note also that these antennas come folded and in parts, so you can probably get even the 7698P through an attic access if you decided to go for the overkill solution. Another factor is whether or not you have a clear line of sight (other than your wall/roof) to Lookout Mountain from your house (e.g. is a nearby building/house in the way?).

The '95 and '96 are conspicuous by their absence from the lineup on Winegard's site, suggesting that the company has discontinued these models. The move made sense, since each successive step in the old lineup didn't offer enough of an additional performance difference to justify five different models. Stocks of both antennas appeared to be ample at antenna suppliers at last check, but there's no telling how much longer that's going to last.

The Winegard HD 76XXP series of antennas are much bigger than I was anticipating. What are some other antennas with comparable quality, reception, etc, but are smaller in size. Size was one of the attributes that drew me to Denny's Antennas.

My favorite antenna is the one that works. You should have plenty of signal, but you're mounting in the attic, so it depends on the roofing material. You probably could point any small VHF/UHF antenna (CM-3010, Winegard HD7000R, Denny's up-7, RCA ANT751, etc.) west and get 2,4,6,7,9,12,28,31 etc. 38 and 59 may be strong enough to pick off the side of the antenna. If you want 38 or 59 a Winegard MetroStar MS-1000 may work well in your situation. If it was me doing it I'd probably mount a MetroStar on the roof using an eve mount and run the cable in through the attic vent.

Actually, I'd start out experimenting with a rabbitear-loop antenna (RCA ANT111, etc.) in the attic, just to see what I could expect, before I spent money on a big antenna.

General rule of thumb. Bigger antenna equals more gain equals better reception. So, a smaller antenna won't give you the same performance as one of the large HD 76XXP antennas. You are in a strong signal strength area, but you are mounting in the attic. You lose generally 50% of your signal by mounting in the attic. That is why jsmar is recommending larger antennas. I'd experiment with the rabbitear-loop, as I say above, before I bought.

I agree. If you take a look at any of the books on antenna theory you find that element size and spacing is what gets you gain. Of course, this takes physical size and comes at the expense of making the antenna directional.

You can add active amplification, but a real good amplifier is not cheap and even those come with certain liabilities.

As pointed out, attic mounting has its own set of problems.

If you can get something that you can return (check out what Radio Shack offers, maybe not the best, but 30 days to return items usually no questions asked. Keep your reciept !!), perhaps you can try a few things until you get something that works for you. Just don't think that you are going to find a small antenna that will work as well as a BIG antenna, all else being equal. It simply is not going to happen.

Phil