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San Francisco, CA - Comcast - Page 421

post #12601 of 15215
DAP, there are two separate issues:

Quote:


Comcasts current intent is to do away with the filter trap entirely and encrypt everything but limited basic. If they do this, it will not matter what channel or what PSIP number is assigned to a channel, if it is broadcast in clear QAM, you will be able to receive it, if it is not, you will need to rent some kind of cable box to receive it.

I agree, IF the channels are encrypted individually. If encryption is done by individual channel then the first six channels I listed are not affected.

Unfortunately, the method of encryption used elsewhere amounted to an electronic trap on channels above 30 i.e. there are no channels >30 being broadcast in clear QAM.

We have different expectations, and come mid-April one of us will be proven right and the other wrong. I hope you are right.

Quote:


Just because your TVs don't handle clear QAM properly, you can't really blame Comcast for that.

Did you not understand the example of NBC on three different tuners?

Comcast is broadcasting PSIPs which do not comply to the standard for two channels on the network here, KNTV and KQED.

It is not the tuners which are at fault, there are no QAM tuning problems on any other channels.

The PSIP corruption problem can be solved at the headend. The issue is that DTAs use a Virtual Map and the DC*x use OOB. Nothing in the Comcast network relies on PSIPs for tuning so they are not accepted as needing attention. Only issues which affect network reception (STBs) are put on Trouble Reports.
post #12602 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by abg View Post

As they say, there's good news here and bad news.

First, the bad news. You can be certain that Comcast will never activate a box you didn't rent from them.

But, there is good news. If you just want to watch ABC-HD, and your TV has a QAM tuner, just connect the cable to your HDTV and tune to channel 7.1. If your TV doesn't have a QAM tuner (are there HDTVs that don't?), then try Amazon.com.

Thanks for the descriptive reply. Never used the QAM Tuner. I did see multiple channel search options. Not sure if I have QAM tuner on my TV. I can watch the cable by selecting the channels from 2 to 125 on the TV remote. The TV I am using is Panasonic CT-34WX54. It has a Panasonic Universal remote like most of the HDTVs. Could you or someone else how to go to channel 7.1 using the Panasonic Universal remote? I am hoping there are many Panasonic TV users. Probably that may give me some clue on the QAM tuning as well.

Thanks again for your reply. You guys make this forum very helpful for newbies like me.
post #12603 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by bas2001 View Post

Thanks for the descriptive reply. Never used the QAM Tuner. I did see multiple channel search options. Not sure if I have QAM tuner on my TV..

I'm quite sure that your TV does not have a QAM or even a digital tuner. Your user manual should spell out if it does have the capabilities of tuning digital cable. I searched for the specs and all that I found was that it has an NTSC tuner.
post #12604 of 15215
Your owner's manual should tell you if you have a QAM tuner or not. Mine (not a Panny) has three:

NTSC: OTA analog
ATSC: OTA digital (8vsb modulation)
QAM: cable digital
post #12605 of 15215
With the new TiVo Series 4 Premier now official does anyone know if Comcast in the Bay Area supports the SeaChange network signaling for video on demand?

There seems to be some indication of TiVo and Comcast working together but if we don't have SeaChange locally then it won't really matter.
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-03/...ere-mysteries/
post #12606 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by bas2001 View Post

Thanks for the descriptive reply. Never used the QAM Tuner. I did see multiple channel search options. Not sure if I have QAM tuner on my TV. I can watch the cable by selecting the channels from 2 to 125 on the TV remote. The TV I am using is Panasonic CT-34WX54. It has a Panasonic Universal remote like most of the HDTVs. Could you or someone else how to go to channel 7.1 using the Panasonic Universal remote? I am hoping there are many Panasonic TV users. Probably that may give me some clue on the QAM tuning as well.

Thanks again for your reply. You guys make this forum very helpful for newbies like me.

Your TV only has an NTSC tuner, no digital tuners of any kind.

http://www.epinions.com/specs/pr-Pan...rd_Televisions
post #12607 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by sydyen View Post

DAP, there are two separate issues:



I agree, IF the channels are encrypted individually. If encryption is done by individual channel then the first six channels I listed are not affected.

Unfortunately, the method of encryption used elsewhere amounted to an electronic trap on channels above 30 i.e. there are no channels >30 being broadcast in clear QAM.

This is wrong.
I know this because I am only paying for limited basic, and yes I do have a trap filter in my circuit. The trap filters out channels between 30 and 70. all but one of the channels below 30 are analog. ALL of the clear QAM channels I receive are above 70. ALL of them.

If a channel has PSIP, then the displayed channel number has no relationship to the actual channel the signal is broadcast on. I receive channel 36.1, an local OTA channel via cable. It shows up on channel 36.1 even though there is a filter that blocks all physical signals between channels 30 and 70. Why? because it is not broadcast on channel 36, it is broadcast on channel 119, 36.1 is just a NAME that the PSIP attaches to the channel, it has nothing to do with the frequency that the channel is broadcast on.
Quote:



We have different expectations, and come mid-April one of us will be proven right and the other wrong. I hope you are right.



Did you not understand the example of NBC on three different tuners?

Comcast is broadcasting PSIPs which do not comply to the standard for two channels on the network here, KNTV and KQED.

It is not the tuners which are at fault, there are no QAM tuning problems on any other channels.

The PSIP corruption problem can be solved at the headend. The issue is that DTAs use a Virtual Map and the DC*x use OOB. Nothing in the Comcast network relies on PSIPs for tuning so they are not accepted as needing attention. Only issues which affect network reception (STBs) are put on Trouble Reports.

Just because a tuner works on most QAM channels does not mean that there are no bugs in its firmware.

If comcast is broadcasting a clear QAM channel, and your tuner can't handle it, it is the fault of the tuner.

It does not matter that the PSIP is non-standard, the firmware in the television should ignore the PSIP if it does not understand it. All the PSIP is, is a number that the television uses to identify the channel. If it can not understand the PSIP data, it should ignore it and use the physical channel number & sub channel number to identify the channel.

The PSIP is like a persons name. Just because a persons name happens to be in a foreign language and you can't pronounce it, does not mean that you can not see that person or interact with them.

When a television refuses to display a channel because the PSIP is different than it expects, that television is broken. The guys who wrote the firmware for the television did a sloppy half way job by not properly checking to make sure that the data they were looking at matched what they expected and ignoring data that falls outside that expected range.

A television should be designed to deal as best it can with the signal it receives and ignore the parts of the signal it does not recognize, otherwise it will break when future enhancements to the signal are added. If old black and white televisions refused to display a picture if the signal slightly deviated from what it expected, then when color TV started to be broadcast, those old black and white sets would not have been able to tune in color broadcasts.

It would be nice if Comcast would follow specifications, but they never have and I don't expect them to start now unless there is a federal regulation that requires them to do so. They think it is in their interest to make their systems proprietary, they see it as yet another form of DRM.
post #12608 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias1 View Post

With the new TiVo Series 4 Premier now official does anyone know if Comcast in the Bay Area supports the SeaChange network signaling for video on demand?

There seems to be some indication of TiVo and Comcast working together but if we don't have SeaChange locally then it won't really matter.
http://www.zatznotfunny.com/2010-03/...ere-mysteries/

I doubt it's using the on demand stuff like the cable boxes do. It's possible that Tivo added software which does the proprietary comcast thing, but I doubt it (this also presumes there's no additional hardware required).

I think the Comcast On Demand tile they showed is probably VOD over the internet from their Fancast site, which from what I've heard is pretty low quality.

Personally I don't think I'll be upgrading my Tivo HD for a while, because aside from a nicer UI, a faster CPU, and 1080p output, it doesn't seem to offer much new from the Tivo HD. I'm going to wait at least a few months and let the early adopters figure out HD upgrade options, etc (wouldn't it be nice to drop a 2TB HD into it?)
post #12609 of 15215
DAP, you are so way off base it is difficult to know how to reply.

I wrote "Unfortunately, the method of encryption used elsewhere amounted to an electronic trap on channels above 30 i.e. there are no channels >30 being broadcast in clear QAM."

Quote:


This is wrong. I know this because I am only paying for limited basic...

You clearly have no understanding what encryption means since encryption has not been implemented in the Bay Area. You cannot use yourself as an example because you are viewing the same unencrypted transmissions as I am.

Comcast recently announced that it will begin encrypting soon and be completed by mid-April. When encryption is implemented those channels you are viewing now in clear QAM will be scrambled, and you will NOT be able to view them in clear QAM.

It is called Privacy Mode, and when turned on in the network, even those of us who pay for Expanded will be unable to view the Expanded channels without a Set Top Box.

You belong to the group Comcast has been giving a free ride to since conversion. You belong to the group Comcast is using as justification to encrypt the Expanded channels. Had Comcast's conversion kept the Expanded clear QAM channels in 30-70 you would never have been able to see them and Comcast would not have an excuse to encrypt.

Quote:


Just because a tuner works on most QAM channels does not mean that there are no bugs in its firmware. If comcast is broadcasting a clear QAM channel, and your tuner can't handle it, it is the fault of the tuner.

And if NBC had chosen to broadcast some of the Olympics in French because it is an official language of Canada would you blame the American school system for not teaching us French?

When Comcast broadcasts a corrupted PSIP is is talking "French" to the tuners, and it depends on an individal tuner's multi-lingual capability as to how well it is interpreted.

Quote:


It does not matter that the PSIP is non-standard, the firmware in the television should ignore the PSIP if it does not understand it.

If a VTA bus drives on the wrong side of the road, it is the fault of the other drivers?

Since you apparently believe it is the tuner's responsibility to anticipate all the ways in Comcast can transmit non-compliant non-standard PSIPs there is no point in pursuing this discussion with you.
post #12610 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xn0r View Post

I doubt it's using the on demand stuff like the cable boxes do. It's possible that Tivo added software which does the proprietary comcast thing, but I doubt it (this also presumes there's no additional hardware required).

I think the Comcast On Demand tile they showed is probably VOD over the internet from their Fancast site, which from what I've heard is pretty low quality.

Wishful thinking on my part I guess. I have a Series 3 and was trying to find a good reason to upgrade. The addition of On Demand would be a nice added benefit.

With our impending switch to SDV it would have been great if TiVo had integrated hardware/software for On Demand and SDV. Oh well, here's hoping the tuning adapters work well.
post #12611 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elias1 View Post

Wishful thinking on my part I guess. I have a Series 3 and was trying to find a good reason to upgrade. The addition of On Demand would be a nice added benefit.

I just found the answer. No On Demand.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/03/o...ast-on-demand/
post #12612 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by leftjab View Post

getting Fox Soccer HD would add far more soccer in HD than adding Univision HD or Telemundo HD, albeit in English. I do sympathize with those who have not wanted to hear the English announcers on ESPN for past World Cups, but it should be much improved this year. Asking for the new channel Fox Soccer Plus in HD is probably too much, as it's not even on the system yet in SD, but with Setanta USA going out of business this past weekend, freeing up an additional SD channel (and saving me $15/mo.), maybe FS+ SD could be added easily.

It is really time for an HD channel for soccer. The only problem with FSC (HD or not) is that it has a very limited number of premiership games. It is as if it has a really bad agreement with Barclay's League. It covers Sierie A better but it has no La Liga games. The best move is to have an HD channel that has a good selection of games from the best European Leagues and that would allow Univision or Telemundo to offer Latin American football to their fans.
post #12613 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by sydyen View Post

DAP, you are so way off base it is difficult to know how to reply.

I wrote "Unfortunately, the method of encryption used elsewhere amounted to an electronic trap on channels above 30 i.e. there are no channels >30 being broadcast in clear QAM."



You clearly have no understanding what encryption means since encryption has not been implemented in the Bay Area.

You are making a very bad assumption here.
I am well aware that Comcast intends to encrypt extended basic channels. You seem to assume that since some OTA channels appear on channel numbers above 30 that they are considered extended basic channels and therefore will become encrypted as well. This is not true.
Quote:


[long redundant explanation of how free extended basic clear QAM channels are going away removed]

And if NBC had chosen to broadcast some of the Olympics in French because it is an official language of Canada would you blame the American school system for not teaching us French?

When Comcast broadcasts a corrupted PSIP is is talking "French" to the tuners, and it depends on an individal tuner's multi-lingual capability as to how well it is interpreted.

If a VTA bus drives on the wrong side of the road, it is the fault of the other drivers?

Since you apparently believe it is the tuner's responsibility to anticipate all the ways in Comcast can transmit non-compliant non-standard PSIPs there is no point in pursuing this discussion with you.

No, the television should not need to anticipate all the possible ways Comcast could screw up the PSIP. It should properly decode the standards complaint PSIP, and ignore anything that deviates from the standard. This is the proper way to deal with extensible standards.

The PSIP represents a tiny portion of the QAM signal. It is only used for telling the tuner what channel number the broadcaster would like the television to use for the channel. It is completely unnecessary for decoding & displaying the video.
If your television can not display the video because Comcast put bogus info in the PSIP, then your television is broken.
For example what happens if there is a glitch in the data? will you television crash? The data decoding should be designed to be robust. It should be designed to do the best it can with what it gets. Otherwise, an occasional missing bit, which is a guaranteed occurrence in any broadcast medium, will make the program unwatchable.

A more reasonable metaphor than the ones you gave, is not being able to read a book because the publisher misspelled the title.
post #12614 of 15215
DAP

The original statement I took issue with was:

Quote:
Local stations are not encrypted and that includes the HD version of those channels.

Comcast does not even provide HD versions of local stations to Basic Subscribers today, as you have yourself confirmed.

Quote:
all but one of the channels below 30 are analog.

The following local stations below 30 are broadcast in HD by Comcast San Jose:

2.1 KTVU HD (Fox)
4.2 KRON HD
5.1 KPIX HD (CBS)
7.1 KGO HD (ABC)
9.1 KQED HD (PBS)
11.1 KNTV HD (NBC)

Your tuner should be able to see all of these if it can handle the corrupted PSIPs for PBS and NBC.

Quote:
The trap filters out channels between 30 and 70

Which means you are not receiving six local OTA stations in HD.

35.1 KOFY HD
36.1 KICU HD
44.1 KBCW HD (CW)
54.1 KTEH HD (PBS)
60.1 KCSM HD (PBS)
65.1 KKPX HD (ION)

Quote:
You seem to assume that since some OTA channels appear on channel numbers above 30 that they are considered extended basic channels and therefore will become encrypted as well.

OTA HD are not expanded channels.

What I wrote was that when encryption was introduced elsewhere, all access to channels above 30 was only possible via STB i.e. Comcast did a blanket shutdown of clear QAM on all channels except below 30. That shuts down OTA HD as well as expanded.

Quote:
This is not true.

And you know this because of:

- Divine inspiration?
- Psychic vision?
- a priori inspiration?

Why do you want to keep arguing? I have already told you We have different expectations, and come mid-April one of us will be proven right and the other wrong. I hope you are right.

Your fervent belief is as useless as a $3 bill until Comcast introduces encryption in the Bay Area.

Quote:
The PSIP represents a tiny portion of the QAM signal. It is only used for telling the tuner what channel number the broadcaster would like the television to use for the channel. It is completely unnecessary for decoding & displaying the video.

You leave me gasping with your lack of comprehension and understanding of PSIPs.

Ask yourself where a tuner is supposed to display decoded video when it cannot figure out what channel number to display it at.

This is my last public post on this subject as there is no reason why other members have to suffer through this useless interplay.

Either take it offline or drop it entirely.
post #12615 of 15215
Comcast corporate policy is to pass all the local HD & SD they carry in clear QAM, and to also pass correct PSIP with those channels.

After Project Cavalry (analog channel elimination) in any given area approximately 20 or less analog channels will remain; primary locals (but not necessarily digital subchannels), gov, edu, public service, and a very few others (WGN, CSPAN, HSN, QVC), area dependent.
post #12616 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by sydyen View Post

DAP

The original statement I took issue with was:
Quote:


Local stations are not encrypted and that includes the HD version of those channels.

Comcast does not even provide HD versions of local stations to Basic Subscribers today, as you have yourself confirmed.

I did no such thing.
For the local OTA channels, I get an anolog copy, a channel below 30.
a digital SD copy on a channel above 70
and an HD copy also on a channel above 70, but with a PSIP that makes it appear to be the same as what the original no-longer existing analog OTA channel used to be.
Quote:




The following local stations below 30 are broadcast in HD by Comcast San Jose:

2.1 KTVU HD (Fox)
4.2 KRON HD
5.1 KPIX HD (CBS)
7.1 KGO HD (ABC)
9.1 KQED HD (PBS)
11.1 KNTV HD (NBC)

Your tuner should be able to see all of these if it can handle the corrupted PSIPs for PBS and NBC.

This is where you are confused.
All of the above channel numbers are PSIP numbers.
NONE of those channels are broadcast on the physical channel that the PSIP claims the channel is on.

I will now list the OTA channels I get over the air as well as on cable, including the PSIP channel that the channel pretends to be broadcast on and the physical channels these are actually broadcast on. I hope I can get you to understand that THESE NUMBERS ARE NOT THE SAME! The PSIP numbers are meaningless arbitrary names that are attached to the channels, the actual broadcast channels are directly mapped to frequencies.
Code:
PSIP channel     callsign        name                           OTA freqid      OTA service id  Comcast Analog  Comcast SD PSIP Comcast SD freq id      Comcast SD servic id    Comcast HD PSIP Comcast HD Freq id      Comcast HD service id
2.1              KTVU-TV         KTVU-TV                        44              3               2               none            89                      1                       2.1             78                      2
2.2              KTVU-SD         KTVU-SD                        44              4                               2.2             78                      3                       
4.1              KRON-SD         KRON-SD                        38              3                                                       
4.2              KRON-HD         KRON-HD                        38              4               4               none            89                      2                       4.2             74                      1
5.1              KPIX-DT         KPIX-DT                        29              1               5               none            89                      3                       5.1             78                      1
7.1              KGO-HD          KGO-HD                         7               3               7               none            89                      4                       7.1             80                      1
7.2              LIVWELL         LIVWELL                        7               4                               7.2             80                      7
7.2              LIVWELL         LIVWELL                        7               4                                                       
7.3              KGOACCU         KGOACCU                        7               5                               7.3             80                      8                       
8.1              KSBW-DT         KSBW-DT                        8               1               24              none            100                     12                      
8.1              KSBW-DT         KSBW-DT                        8               1                                                       
8.2              KSBW-WX         KSBW-WX                        8               2                                                       
8.2              KSBW-WX         KSBW-WX                        8               2                                                       
9.1              KQED-HD         KQED-HD                        30              1                                                       
9.2              KTEH-DT         KTEH-DT                        30              2                                                       
9.3              WORLD           WORLD                          30              3                               none            90                      8                       
9.4              5008                                           30              8                                                       
9.5              5009                                           30              9                                                       
11.1             KNTV-HD         KNTV-HD                        12              3               3                                                                               11.1            79                      1
11.2             NBC Wea         NBC Weather                    12              4                                                       
11.3             US              US                             12              5                               11.3            79                      3                       
20.1             KOFY-HD         KOFY-HD                        19              3               13              none            89                      7                       
20.4             Azteca          Azteca                         19              6                                                       
25.1             KQET-HD         KQET-HD                        25              1                                                       
25.2             KTEH            KTEH                           25              2               10              none            92                      4                       
25.3             V-me            V-me                           25              3                                                       
26.1             KTSF-D1         26 San Francisco, CA           27              3               8               none            89                      8                       
26.2             KTSF-D2         26 San Francisco, CA           27              4                                                       
26.3             KTSF-D3         KTSF-D3                        27              5                                                       
26.4             KTSF-D4         KTSF-D4                        27              6                                                       
28.1             KEAR            KEAR - San Francisco           28              10                                                      
28.1             KFTL-CA         KFTL-CA                        28              1                                                       
28.15            RTI             Radio Taiwan Intl.             28              15                                                              
32.1             KMTP-DT         KMTP Digital Television        33              3               32              none            90                      2                       
32.2             WorldCh         KMTP Digital Television        33              4                                                               
32.4             WTV             KMTP Digital Television        33              5                                                               
32.5             NTD             KMTP Digital Television        33              6                                                               
35.1             KCBA-DT         KCBA-DT                        13              3                                                               
36.1             KICU-TV         KICU-TV                        36              3               6               none            92                      2                       36.1            119                     1
36.2             KICU-SD         KICU-SD                        36              4                               36.2            119                     3                       
36.3             KICU-SD         KICU-SD                        36              5                                                               
38.1             KCNS            KCNS                           39              1               21              none            90                      3                       
38.2             KCNS-2          KCNS-2                         39              2                                                               
38.3             KCNS-3          KCNS-3                         39              3                                                               
38.4             5004                                           39              4                                                               
44.1             KBCW-DT         KBCW-DT                        45              1               12              none            89                      10                      44.1            74                      5
46.1             KION-DT         KION-DT                        32              3                                                               
46.2             THE CW          THE CW                         32              4                                                               
48.1             KSTS-HD         KSTS-HD                        49              3               18              none            92                      3                       
48.2             KSTS-SD         KSTS-SD                        49              4                                                               
54.1             KTEH            KTEH                           50              1                                                               
54.2             KQED            KQED                           50              2               9               none            89                      5                       9.1             80                      2
54.3             LIFE            LIFE                           50              3                                                               
54.4             KIDS            KIDS                           50              4                                                               
54.5             V-me            V-me                           50              5                                                               
65.1             ION             KKPX Digital Television        41              3               16                                              
65.2             qubo            KKPX qubo                      41              4                                                               
65.3             IONLife         KKPX ION Life                  41              5                                                               
66.1             KFSF-DT         TeleFutura                     34              1               20              none            90                      5                       
66.2             KDTV-DT         Univision                      34              2                               none            89                      6                       
67.1             Univisi         Univisi                        31              1                                                       
67.2             Telefut         Telefut                        31              2                                                       
67.3             LATV            LATV                           31              3                                                                               
Note that the PSIP number seldom matches the freq id.
Also note that the Comcast ?D freq id is NEVER less than 30, in fact the lowest freq id there is 74.
The ONLY reason that the channel number of 30 is important is because of the filter traps currently in the cables of those (me included) who only get limited basic. The filter traps filter out channels 30 to 70. These channel numbers correspond to freq id in the table above, NOT PSIP numbers.
The filter traps will be going away when Comcast switches to their new system. When the filter is gone, Comcast will have the option of encrypting or not encrypting any channel in the entire band. The channel number is irrelevant to that.
Quote:



Which means you are not receiving six local OTA stations in HD.

35.1 KOFY HD
36.1 KICU HD
44.1 KBCW HD (CW)
54.1 KTEH HD (PBS)
60.1 KCSM HD (PBS)
65.1 KKPX HD (ION)

I am getting 36.1 and 44.1
The rest Comcast, or perhaps the FCC does not consider them to be local, so they are not required to be carried.
Quote:



OTA HD are not expanded channels.

This is correct. I fail to understand why you think Comcast intends to encrypt them. It is my understanding that Comcast is required to carry them without encryption.
Quote:


What I wrote was that when encryption was introduced elsewhere, all access to channels above 30 was only possible via STB i.e. Comcast did a blanket shutdown of clear QAM on all channels except below 30. That shuts down OTA HD as well as expanded.

Comcast has not done this here yet. Could you point me at where someone made this claim? The encryption technology works on a per channel basis, it is not a wide band encryption (does something like that even exist?).
This is certainly NOT how I read the announcements of what comcast is planning. My reading is that they intend to leave limited basic unencrypted (this includes all OTA channels they are required to carry, including the HD channels, INCLUDING those with PSIP channel numbers that are larger than 30). They do intend to encrypt all extended basic channels that are not currently encrypted (OTA is NOT extended basic, so they are not going to be encrypted)
Quote:



Why do you want to keep arguing? I have already told you We have different expectations, and come mid-April one of us will be proven right and the other wrong. I hope you are right.

There was an XKCD comic. Something about there being someone who is WRONG on the internet...

At this point we switch our argument to the other completely independent argument we are having.
Quote:


Ask yourself where a tuner is supposed to display decoded video when it cannot figure out what channel number to display it at.

On the LCD or plasma display attached to the tuner, exactly like all the other channels.
How do you think the old TVs did it? They didn't even have PSIP! PSIP is an unnecessary add on that allowed TV stations to keep their channel numbers (they considered the channel number part of their "brand name") when they were forced to move due to the digital transition. It was intended to prevent confusion, but seems to be causing far more confusion than it is fixing.
PSIP is NOT REQUIRED FOR CABLE! PSIP is only required for OTA broadcasts.
Most digital channels on comcast don't even have PSIP info.

The usual way to handle the lack of PSIP is to use the actual channel number and subchannel number.

Quote:


This is my last public post on this subject as there is no reason why other members have to suffer through this useless interplay.

Either take it offline or drop it entirely.

You are quite welcome to take this to private messages, or to ignore me completely.
post #12617 of 15215
Looks like Ch. 7 & 8 are the only stations in the VHF frequency range that have its virtual number (PSIP) the same as its OTA number.

I recently replace an ancient Mitsu 13" with a 1080P LED w/QAM. I got some weird channel (virtual) numbers and was having "interruption of signal" messages for some reason. So I went with a STB.

And to further muddy the waters, the FCC requires the MSOs like Comcast to carry analog thru 2012, when the matter will be revisited. Never mind that the OTAs (including the HD channels) have already made the transition to digital.
post #12618 of 15215
Change to date for roll out of the new Guide....


This is as I received it....

_______________________________________

We’ve pushed back our rollout of the latest release of our new navigation guide (Version A28) to let us work on some of the issues that have popped up in other parts of the country be completed before we put it in customers’ homes here.

________________________________________

As soon as I get a firm date for the new roll out date, I'll post it here.
I'm anxious to see the new guide but I'd rather have others deal with the bugs and not me

Laters,
Mikef5
post #12619 of 15215
About the upcoming encryption plan that will be coming soon.

I've talked to Comcast and this is what IS NOT going to be encrypted.

All the limited basic channels and their HD channels that are broadcast locally ( ABC, CBS, NBC, KRON and Fox ). That includes KICU-HD, KBCW-HD, KQED-HD and it's other SD channels.
Basically, if it's broadcasted locally and carried by Comcast ( in the Limited Basic Tier ) it will not be encrypted.

That is what they are going to do and not speculation.

Laters,
Mikef5
post #12620 of 15215
DAP, you are not big on private discussion....

Quote:


I hope I can get you to understand that THESE NUMBERS ARE NOT THE SAME! The PSIP numbers are meaningless arbitrary names that are attached to the channels, the actual broadcast channels are directly mapped to frequencies.

You don't need to help me understand nearly as much as you need to use the terminology of the standard.

Your "PSIP numbers" are defined in the standard as virtual channels, and calling them meaningless arbitrary names demonstrates a total lack of comprehension about their importance. Virtual channels are defined so that stations can retain the broadcasting identity they built during the days of analog. Huge amounts of money go into station call sign identities.

Cablecos which implemented digital conversion in the spirit and intent of the standard gave subscribers what they knew as as nn analog as nn.1 clear QAM (http://www.dtvrollout.com/mctv-qam.pdf).

Quote:


All of the above channel numbers are PSIP numbers.

PSIP is the Program and Systems Information Protocol of the standard for digital television and PSIP packets contain channel addresses, content ratings, and EPGs (Electronic Program Guides) that have titles and program descriptions.

The VCT (Virtual Channel Table) or CVCT (Cable Virtual Channel Table) of the PSIP associates an actual channel to a virtual channel. There can be multiple virtual channels defined for an actual channel which you refer to as freqID (http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/catv-ch.html).

Quote:


Comcast does not even provide HD versions of local stations to Basic Subscribers today, as you have yourself confirmed.

I did no such thing.
For the local OTA channels, I get an anolog copy, a channel below 30.
a digital SD copy on a channel above 70
and an HD copy also on a channel above 70, but with a PSIP that makes it appear to be the same as what the original no-longer existing analog OTA channel used to be.

The sole subject matter is HD Local, so your analog and SD channels are not relevant, and I have no idea what your last statement means.

Can you watch KNTV in HD? YES/NO

If YES, what channel are you watching it on?

If NO, you have reaffirmed the point you are trying to refute.

The Advanced Television Systems Committee, which is the international, non-profit organization that developed the voluntary standards for digital television was well aware of how vital it is that PSIP contents are not corrupted: "If broadcasters do not include properly encoded PSIP data in their DTV signals, receivers may not correctly identify and tune to the station. Therefore, it is vital that all broadcasters understand PSIP and include the data in their DTV stations signals." psip_reasons.html

We agree that the OTA broadcast frequency bears no relationship to the Comcast broadcast frequency of a station, and that Comcast needs to disassemble and reassemble the VCT with a CVCT that changes the actual channel. This is where corruption can occur because CVCTs can be configured for a frequency (block) or frequency/sub-channel.

Quote:


The usual way to handle the lack of PSIP is to use the actual channel number and subchannel number.

The indigestible problem with that logic is that when the CVCTs are corrupted the tuner cannot figure out what the actual channel number and subchannel number are!

If the frequency of 76 actual is associated with 17 virtual in a CVCT then it is a block and 77.x will be converted to 17.x but, if another CVCT associates 79.5 to a virtual of 15.1 then the tuner has conflicting data. The Transport Stream (TS) does not stop running, and the conflict has to be resolved in a second or two e.g.

- Design 1 treats block actual as the overriding choice but 79.5 does not exist in the TV's setup scan table so it does not lock
- Design 2 treats block actual as the overriding choice and ignores the setup scan table to lock to 79.5
- Design 3 treats block virtual as the overriding choice but 17.5 does not exist in the TV's setup scan table so it does not lock
- Design 4 treats block virtual as the overriding choice and ignores the setup scan table to lock to 17.5
- Design 5 ignores the block CVCT and locks to 15.1

If the 79.5/15.1 CVCT is correct then only Designs 2 and 5 will work, the other three will not.
post #12621 of 15215
All these channel, psip or what ever makes my brain freeze.
A very simple question, when is comcast going to carry ALL the OTA HD/SD channels (including their sub channels) for limited basic customers? That the only thing I care.
post #12622 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkm View Post

All these channel, psip or what ever makes my brain freeze.
A very simple question, when is comcast going to carry ALL the OTA HD/SD channels (including their sub channels) for limited basic customers? That the only thing I care.

Sad to say, the answer looks more like never than when.

It is not a Bay Area phenomenon. All over the country you will hear the same complaint, usually in reference to some game broadcast on a local HD station which Basic cable subscribers had to watch in analog. It is not just the Limited Basic customers who are affected, Expanded Basic subscribers are as well.

Comcast is 'obliged' to carry local OTAs in HD/SD, but in the absence of enforcement there is no incentive to do so.
post #12623 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by sydyen View Post

Sad to say, the answer looks more like never than when.

It is not a Bay Area phenomenon. All over the country you will hear the same complaint, usually in reference to some game broadcast on a local HD station which Basic cable subscribers had to watch in analog. It is not just the Limited Basic customers who are affected, Expanded Basic subscribers are as well.

Comcast is 'obliged' to carry local OTAs in HD/SD, but in the absence of enforcement there is no incentive to do so.

What stations do you think you're missing? The San Francisco market is one of the most crowded in the nation but I can't think of any station, that broadcasts in HD, that Comcast is not carrying. I know they are carrying the sub-channels of the major nets(KNTV, KTVU, KGO, KQED), not sure about the smaller independent stations, I know they do carry the sub-channels of KTSF. I'm not sure that Comcast carries every local station in the market, there's a heck of a lot of them here and I haven't bothered to check, but I seriously doubt you'd be missing any games on a local HD channel.
post #12624 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

What stations do you think you're missing? The San Francisco market is one of the most crowded in the nation but I can't think of any station, that broadcasts in HD, that Comcast is not carrying. I know they are carrying the sub-channels of the major nets(KNTV, KTVU, KGO, KQED), not sure about the smaller independent stations, I know they do carry the sub-channels of KTSF. I'm not sure that Comcast carries every local station in the market, there's a heck of a lot of them here and I haven't bothered to check, but I seriously doubt you'd be missing any games on a local HD channel.

Well, I cannot receive any OTA where I am, so, cannot tell you exactly. But when I'm at my in-laws house which they watch OTA, I see HD version of KOFY, KCSM, KRCB and some of the Spanish channels. Which I only get the SD version on Comcast. Also, I don't get the sub-channels for KTSF, KCNS, KCSM, KKPX. There may be others, but those are the ones I remembered.
post #12625 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by sydyen View Post

DAP, you are not big on private discussion....

You had the option of replying by private message, you replied here.
Quote:




You don't need to help me understand nearly as much as you need to use the terminology of the standard.

good. I'll call them virtual channel numbers from now on. The virtual channel number is included as part of the PSIP, and is not necessary to be able to decode & display a video stream.
Quote:


Your "PSIP numbers" are defined in the standard as virtual channels, and calling them meaningless arbitrary names demonstrates a total lack of comprehension about their importance. Virtual channels are defined so that stations can retain the broadcasting identity they built during the days of analog. Huge amounts of money go into station call sign identities.

How much the marketing department cares about the virtual channel number is irrelevant to a televisions ability to decode & display a video stream.
Quote:


Cablecos which implemented digital conversion in the spirit and intent of the standard gave subscribers what they knew as as nn analog as nn.1 clear QAM (http://www.dtvrollout.com/mctv-qam.pdf).

The digital conversion only applies to OTA signals. Cablecos did not follow ANY of the standards or conventions for the digital transition, not even the modulation scheme. They are using QAM, not 8VSB. None of the rules for the digital transition apply to cable.
Quote:


PSIP is the Program and Systems Information Protocol of the standard for digital television and PSIP packets contain channel addresses, content ratings, and EPGs (Electronic Program Guides) that have titles and program descriptions.

And none of this applies to cable.
Quote:


The VCT (Virtual Channel Table) or CVCT (Cable Virtual Channel Table) of the PSIP associates an actual channel to a virtual channel. There can be multiple virtual channels defined for an actual channel which you refer to as freqID (http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/catv-ch.html).

The sole subject matter is HD Local, so your analog and SD channels are not relevant, and I have no idea what your last statement means.

Can you watch KNTV in HD? YES/NO

You did not bother to look at that table I included did you.
From the table, the answer is yes I do get KNTV in HD on Comcast Cable.
I use MythTV, when MythTV scans channels, it assigns the virtual channel number when there is a proper PSIP for the channel, and a random number when there is not. I had to manually assign the channel numbers to most of my channels since most did not have PSIP channels. Most of the OTA HD channels did have PSIP numbers however. KNTV-HD IS one of the channels with proper PSIP information. It is broadcast on channel 79 subchannel 1 with a virtual channel of 11.1. This info is included in the table in my previous post.
Quote:


If YES, what channel are you watching it on?

If NO, you have reaffirmed the point you are trying to refute.

The Advanced Television Systems Committee, which is the international, non-profit organization that developed the voluntary standards for digital television was well aware of how vital it is that PSIP contents are not corrupted: "If broadcasters do not include properly encoded PSIP data in their DTV signals, receivers may not correctly identify and tune to the station. Therefore, it is vital that all broadcasters understand PSIP and include the data in their DTV stations signals." psip_reasons.html

We agree that the OTA broadcast frequency bears no relationship to the Comcast broadcast frequency of a station, and that Comcast needs to disassemble and reassemble the VCT with a CVCT that changes the actual channel. This is where corruption can occur because CVCTs can be configured for a frequency (block) or frequency/sub-channel.

The indigestible problem with that logic is that when the CVCTs are corrupted the tuner cannot figure out what the actual channel number and subchannel number are!

You are thinking about this the wrong way around. TVs can't get the PSIP information until they have already tuned in & decoded the channel. They already know what frequency the channel is on, they have to decode the channel to get the PSIP to get the virtual channel number. As I said before, the PSIP is NOT necessary to tune in & decode a channel, it must be able to tune in & decode a channel before it can even see the PSIP.
Quote:


If the frequency of 76 actual is associated with 17 virtual in a CVCT then it is a block and 77.x will be converted to 17.x but, if another CVCT associates 79.5 to a virtual of 15.1 then the tuner has conflicting data. The Transport Stream (TS) does not stop running, and the conflict has to be resolved in a second or two e.g.

- Design 1 treats block actual as the overriding choice but 79.5 does not exist in the TV's setup scan table so it does not lock
- Design 2 treats block actual as the overriding choice and ignores the setup scan table to lock to 79.5
- Design 3 treats block virtual as the overriding choice but 17.5 does not exist in the TV's setup scan table so it does not lock
- Design 4 treats block virtual as the overriding choice and ignores the setup scan table to lock to 17.5
- Design 5 ignores the block CVCT and locks to 15.1

If the 79.5/15.1 CVCT is correct then only Designs 2 and 5 will work, the other three will not.

The information that associates various streams (video to audio) must be correct or even Comcast STBs could not work. Comcast chose an alternate method to map virtual channel numbers to physical channels.
These standards you quote are voluntary, Comcast chose not to follow them. Comcast does not believe it is in their interest to follow the standard, they went their own way. Their own way works for them. It is not friendly to people like me or you who do not use Comcast hardware.
post #12626 of 15215
post #12627 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by keenan View Post

I'm not sure that Comcast carries every local station in the market, there's a heck of a lot of them here and I haven't bothered to check,

You are in a different Comcast network, and there are inconsistencies between head ends.

Quote:


but I seriously doubt you'd be missing any games on a local HD channel.

The Olympics? Football? Golf? Tennis? Hockey? Basketball? NASCAR?

You can watch all of these in HD OTA. How many of those who watched the Canada-USA hockey final were fans, and how many were tuned in because it was our team? How many who watched Serena in the US Open Final were tennis fans, and how many were hoping to see her win her umpteenth Slam?

You do not need Comcast's digital tier and a Set Top Box to watch sports in HD. This weekend has CBS college basketball, NBC gymnastics, hockey and golf, Fox NASCAR, ABC NBA. At least 20 hours of HD programming that is not necessarily available in HD on Comcast.

There are two points being made by sharkm:

- Comcast does not provide all the local stations that broadcast in HD in HD
- Comcast does not provide all the digital sub-channels of local stations

These have to be made available in clear QAM (2-30 and the DTA/DCH70 twins only have analog outputs) and Comcast doesn't have them all.

Mention clear QAM to a support tech and watch his eyes glaze. Comcast has educated them that the only way to watch cable is via a Set Top Box. There is no support for clear QAM in the structure, and you cannot report clear QAM problems because it is not a defined category.

Many of those who complain about being unable to watch sports in HD on Comcast are unaware that clear QAM exists. These are the customers who do what Comcast tells them, and they have never heard of clear QAM. They complain because they cannot watch HD through their STB or 2-30. When it comes to digital sub-channels, there is not enough room in 2-30 to carry them all.

Their complaints against Comcast are justified, however, because Comcast has deliberately chosen not to educate them. If you install an STB as per the directions, you can't even tune clear QAM, because the only signal out of the STB is 3 or 4.
post #12628 of 15215
DAP,

Comcast does not provide local HD channels in HD to Limited Basic subscribers today, and my concern is that the conversion coming up is likely to reduce that even further.

Some people some of the time in the same network as me are unable to view 9.1 and/or 11.1, which is way less than the problem you have. Comcast may not be meeting that commitment to some of us, but it's really screwing you.

Quote:


You did not bother to look at that table I included did you.

I did, but it clarified nothing, it only muddied the waters.

a) You previously wrote in clear and unambigous language:
Quote:


The trap filters out channels between 30 and 70. all but one of the channels below 30 are analog. ALL of the clear QAM channels I receive are above 70.

b) Your table implies otherwise, it includes virtual channel numbers for all the local HDs below 30. Here is an abbreviated extract from your table.
Code:
                                     Comcast      Comcast
 PSIP callsign  name        OTA      Analog         HD
  2.1  KTVU-TV  KTVU-TV    44  3    2  89  1     2.1  78 2
  4.2  KRON-HD  KRON-HD    38  4    4  89  2     4.2  74 1
  5.1  KPIX-DT  KPIX-DT    29  1    5  89  3     5.1  78 1
  7.1  KGO-HD   KGO-HD      7  3    7  89  4     7.1  80 1
  9.1  KQED-HD  KQED-HD    30  1
 11.1  KNTV-HD  KNTV-HD    12  3    3           11.1  79 1
 54.2  KQED     KQED       50  2    9  89  5     9.1  80 2
Your table does not match with a) and only now do I know you receive 11.1. We agree that this means NBC HD must be the only PSIP with valid CVCT entries, but that does not tie in with publicly available data. When I checked silicondust for many zipcodes in San Jose, none of the listings came up with 79-1 as the actual channel for 11.1 virtual, and there were two sets.
Code:
qam256     79-3       11.1   KNTVDT
qam256     92-1        3     KNTV

qam256     92-1      703     KNTVDT
qam256     92-1       11.1   KNTVDT
qam256     84-1        3     KNTV
The two sets cannot coexist, because 92-1 is used in both for different virtual channels. They are either old/new or different head ends.

Since none of the data correlated, there was no choice but to query you precisely.

Quote:


The information that associates various streams (video to audio) must be correct or even Comcast STBs could not work.

Only the actual channel matters to STBs, it takes more for clear QAM. As I tried to illustrate with my example, the actual channel which does the association cannot be locked by a clear QAM tuner if the contents of the CVCTs are wrong i.e. corrupted. Far more complicated scenarios can occur when numbers are re-used e.g. one CVCT associates actual 53.2 with virtual 19.1 and another CVCT associates actual 19.1 to virtual 78.7.

Comcast's STBs (and Tivo) use Out of Band signaling. The DTA uses a Virtual Channel Map loaded into it, and the reason for my concern over the planned transition is that the DTA is NOT, as you believe, selective.

Quote:


The filter traps will be going away when Comcast switches to their new system. When the filter is gone, Comcast will have the option of encrypting or not encrypting any channel in the entire band. The channel number is irrelevant to that.

DTA Privacy Mode is not encryption, it is scrambling. The fact that is NOT encryption is a loophole Comcast used to justify the waiver it received last year. Privacy Mode is an electronic version of the mechanical filter trap with one major difference, it will be applied to everybody on Basic, not just Limited Basic. Comcast will move all of clear QAM Expanded back into 30-70 before the transition.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/htm...tal_switc.html

Quote:


None of the rules for the digital transition apply to cable.

Au contraire. The rules for digital transition DO apply to cable, they were written for OTA and cablecos alike, with the cooperation and contributions by OTA and cablecos alike.

Code:
The PSIP Standard

ATSC Standard A/65C:
Program and System Information Protocol for Terrestrial Broadcast and Cable, Rev. C with Amendment No. 1

The ATSC member organizations represent the broadcast, broadcast equipment, motion picture,
consumer electronics, computer, cable, satellite, and semiconductor industries.
http://www.atscforum.org/
Quote:


These standards you quote are voluntary, Comcast chose not to follow them.

Au contraire. Comcast did choose to follow them by adopting the standard for broadcasting of clear QAM. Comcast broadcasts PSIPs for over 25 major (block) channels and over 125 minor (sub-channels).

This whole exchange started because of my statement that the PSIPs for two local HD channels were corrupted and affected some people some of the time in my network. That's more than a passing grade in my book, and Comcast deserves an A- for effort. A few tweaks to a couple of PSIPs would turn it into an A, and publishing a table of clear QAM so that all their subscribers can use their digital TVs to watch in digital would boost that to an A+.

Please, let this go.....
post #12629 of 15215
Just got a message on the STB that encryption starts on our area on April 8. Says everything above Ch. 34 will need a box.
post #12630 of 15215
Quote:
Originally Posted by sydyen View Post




The Olympics? Football? Golf? Tennis? Hockey? Basketball? NASCAR?

You can watch all of these in HD OTA. How many of those who watched the Canada-USA hockey final were fans, and how many were tuned in because it was our team? How many who watched Serena in the US Open Final were tennis fans, and how many were hoping to see her win her umpteenth Slam?

You do not need Comcast's digital tier and a Set Top Box to watch sports in HD. This weekend has CBS college basketball, NBC gymnastics, hockey and golf, Fox NASCAR, ABC NBA. At least 20 hours of HD programming that is not necessarily available in HD on Comcast.

There are two points being made by sharkm:

- Comcast does not provide all the local stations that broadcast in HD in HD
- Comcast does not provide all the digital sub-channels of local stations

I still don't understand your point. Do you have some specific examples of where one of those events was not available via a Comcast cable connection? Is your issue with the fact that some of these stations are often difficult to find on the Comcast system when not using their equipment? If that's the case I'm not sure what to say, yes it would be nice if all channels were clearly defined by PSIP and easily accessible by all QAM tuners, but no other video provider I know of provides local HD without provider equipment, satellite doesn't even provide sub-channels.

Comcast doesn't advertise or push sales of service based on whether or not you can get everything you want via clear-QAM. Again, it would be nice to not have to go through so many hoops to tune these clear-QAM channels in, and I'm pretty sure every channel you think you're missing is in their somewhere - and to clear, Comcast doesn't guarantee that they carry every local station in the SF market anyway, among other reasons, if the station chooses retrans over must-carry, then that's their problem if the two sides can't come to an agreement for carriage if lack of carriage is one of your complaints - so if it's wanting everything that's available OTA also to be available via your Comcast system, then my suggestion is to stick with OTA until such time Comcast may or may not have clearly defined methods for tuning clear-QAM channels and/or actually carry the channels.

One suggestion is to wait until the encryption of the Expanded Basic tier is complete and then do a re-scan and see what you get, many of the problems of not being able to find channels that Comcast actually carries might be resolved.
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