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New Laminate Test: Pearl Silver - Page 5

post #121 of 251
rfisher,

It appears from those shots to be hotspotting a bit. Can you take pics of it 'dead on', no image projected, and with the flash? Tanks...

Also, why would you spend the $$ on laminate as a substrate? Can't you find something cheaper?

And finally, we should start a new thread for your mix.

mech
post #122 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

rfisher,

It appears from those shots to be hotspotting a bit. Can you take pics of it 'dead on', no image projected, and with the flash? Tanks...

Also, why would you spend the $$ on laminate as a substrate? Can't you find something cheaper?

mech

Well those pictures were taken about 2 weeks ago. I have since installed my in-wall left, right, and center speakers. If you look on the pictures, the laminate was just taped to the wall and was just a temporary setup. I have since repainted the wall waiting for the new painted laminate screen to hang in the middle of the in-wall speakers. So I guess what I'm saying is I can't take anymore pictures until the other screen is done.

As for hotspotting, I can't see that effect at all. So basically you might be seeing that in the pictures, but it doesn't exist in person. What I can do is post pictures from 2 weeks ago from 'dead on' and in the dark. I believe these picture will not show any sign of hotspotting.

Also I don't see why using a flash while taking pictures of a screen shows? If you have a high gain screen, like I do, all you will see is a washed out picture. I don't see the knowledge gained by this test.
post #123 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher1968 View Post

Well those pictures were taken about 2 weeks ago. I have since installed my in-wall left, right, and center speakers. If you look on the pictures, the laminate was just taped to the wall and was just a temporary setup. I have since repainted the wall waiting for the new painted laminate screen to hang in the middle of the in-wall speakers. So I guess what I'm saying is I can't take anymore pictures until the other screen is done.

As for hotspotting, I can't see that effect at all. So basically you might be seeing that in the pictures, but it doesn't exist in person. What I can do is post pictures from 2 weeks ago from 'dead on' and in the dark. I believe these picture will not show any sign of hotspotting.

Also I don't see why using a flash while taking pictures of a screen shows? If you have a high gain screen, like I do, all you will see is a washed out picture. I don't see the knowledge gained by this test.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong in my thinking...

A flash will give you a bright flash of light off of your screen and will show up in the picture. Similar to a bright scene from your projector's bulb.



Not a great pic for demonstrating but it's the only on I think I have left at photobucket. Notice the concentrated area of light at the top and center of the FG? That was what I learned here to help determine hotspotting. Here's a good shot of FG pre poly'd.



That's from the projector bulb. That area of brightness will follow your eyes around the room. That's what I'd like to see. From your pics it appears that it does and I'd like to confirm it. This is what FG looks like with the poly.



No hotspotting. PS90 is also hotspot city.



If you have time I'd like to see a pic of your screen with the flash. tanks...

mech
post #124 of 251
In the pictures I took 2 weeks ago I found a picture I took with the flash on. It was of the Incredibles movie. I don't know if this is a good result or not. But I didn't see any hotspotting at all.



If you look above the papers on the cubical you will see a darker area, thats the defect that makes this screen not usable.



post #125 of 251
If you look within the red circle, the image appears to be much brighter.







That's what it looks like to me anyways. You may have to tone down the gain a bit.

mech
post #126 of 251
I think your being rather picky. If you look at your picture of FG with poly you can draw a circle where it looks brighter and call it hotspotting to. I guess the only way to prove that there is NO hotspotting is to project a solid color. That way there will no way to interpret color gradients as hotspotting.

Just take the dropper tool in photoshop to see what I mean. Each RGB value is different by roughly 50 points.

post #127 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher1968 View Post

I think your being rather picky. If you look at your picture of FG with poly you can draw a circle where it looks brighter and call it hotspotting to. I guess the only way to prove that there is NO hotspotting is to project a solid color. That way there will no way to interpret color gradients as hotspotting.

Just take the dropper tool in photoshop to see what I mean. Each RGB value is different by roughly 50 points.


If you look at the top of my pic, the glare from the cans are there. Thus there is more light hitting the bottom of my screen than the top. The cans light up approximately the bottom 2/3's of the screen. Taking a dropper tool and looking at RGB values is not what I'm getting at. Take any sheet of colored paper and drench half of it in 170 watts of light and you'll get the same answers. I don't think you understand what hotspotting is.

Here's a pic of CgS clearly hotspotting



And one side by side with FG



Clearly you can see FG isn't hotspotting next to CgS, which is hotspotting.

From craftech awhile back:

Hotspotting is when you see a glow on the screen from the projector lens in the location the projected beam hits the screen and is most concentrated.

Hotspotting is also a generic term for white areas that are overdriven, but the former definition is what is most pertinent to these forum discussions.

CMRA used to say shine a flashlight at the screen.

Also a link discussing gain and hotspotting.

I think the easiest way is to take a picture of the screen straight back with the flash. Can't recall where I read it but it works.

As for projecting a solid color, I think you're correct. And the color should be white! I've done some Red Greens and Blues before. They're in the laminate thread.

mech
post #128 of 251
I know exactly what hotspotting is, I got a full sheet of PS07. The hotspot follows me from any angle when I'm looking at the screen. With my painted DW I don't see any hotspotting.

I think we on this forum SHOULD NOT use a RGB input devices like a digital camera to make conclusions about performance of a projector screen. The only device which can really take accurate measurements is a spectrophotometer in the Lab color space. Taking samples every 6 inches and comparing the difference using the equation delta E will really tell the story.

I also have can lights directly above my screen. I don't see the great difference on my screen that I do with yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post

If you look at the top of my pic, the glare from the cans are there. Thus there is more light hitting the bottom of my screen than the top. The cans light up approximately the bottom 2/3's of the screen. Taking a dropper tool and looking at RGB values is not what I'm getting at. Take any sheet of colored paper and drench half of it in 170 watts of light and you'll get the same answers. I don't think you understand what hotspotting is.

Here's a pic of CgS clearly hotspotting



And one side by side with FG



Clearly you can see FG isn't hotspotting next to CgS, which is hotspotting.

From craftech awhile back:

Hotspotting is when you see a glow on the screen from the projector lens in the location the projected beam hits the screen and is most concentrated.

Hotspotting is also a generic term for white areas that are overdriven, but the former definition is what is most pertinent to these forum discussions.

CMRA used to say shine a flashlight at the screen.

Also a link discussing gain and hotspotting.

I think the easiest way is to take a picture of the screen straight back with the flash. Can't recall where I read it but it works.

As for projecting a solid color, I think you're correct. And the color should be white! I've done some Red Greens and Blues before. They're in the laminate thread.

mech
post #129 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher1968 View Post

The paint mix was:

DECOART Dazzling Metallics - White Pearl
Minwax Polyacrylic Semi-Gloss
RGBY Pigments
water

The exact ratio I don't have here at work, but I do at home.

rfisher, with the semi gloss poly and pearl white paint, I would imagine you are seeing a fairly glossy surface. I would also assume that the gloss is contributing to most of the gain. When I have done painted a fairly glossy screen, I have observed very poor black level retention off axis. Do you see this with your mix? Can you take an off axis picture for us, maybe with some sort of reference flat gray sample? The reason I ask is becuase I like gain. I am upwards of 2 on my newest screen and that is really pushing viewing cone. And I have a really matte top coat. Have you been able to measure half gain off axis? I would really be interested in the results. Thanks.
post #130 of 251
I would actually say the ( DECOART Dazzling Metallics - White Pearl ) is the biggest factor in the gain. The finish is actually more matte then glossy. I have observed less white level retention off axis, blacks still look pretty good as I remember. I will take more pictures but I don't have any reference grey to compare to except for ps07.

One thing to note is that the projector I have is at-ax100u and the pictures where taken with the dynamic setting. The color temp is way off and the rgb color tracking is all over the place.
post #131 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher1968 View Post

I know exactly what hotspotting is, I got a full sheet of PS07. The hotspot follows me from any angle when I'm looking at the screen. With my painted DW I don't see any hotspotting.

I think we on this forum SHOULD NOT use a RGB input devices like a digital camera to make conclusions about performance of a projector screen. The only device which can really take accurate measurements is a spectrophotometer in the Lab color space. Taking samples every 6 inches and comparing the difference using the equation delta E will really tell the story.

I also have can lights directly above my screen. I don't see the great difference on my screen that I do with yours.

I think I'm upsetting you somehow and that was not my intent. But I will make one more post regarding this. From wbassett in the laminate thread:

Hot Spotting

Hot spotting is being mentioned, so for anyone new that really isn't sure what it is, here it is:



This is an extreme example but it demonstrates what hot spotting is quite well.

Hot spotting is when the center of the image will be brighter than the edges. Again this is not a problem with low gain screens but can become a problem for screens with a higher gain. Hot spotting is caused by insufficient light diffusion, or excessively high lumens hitting a reflective screen with a gain usually greater than 1.0.

You can RGB this and RGB that all you want but if your projected beam is not diffused properly you will see hotspotting. And it will show up with a $5000 camera or a $20 throwaway regardless of their RGB processing. Glare is glare, whether it's red, green, blue, purple, or pink.

You say you don't see it and I'm fine with that.

As I stated at the beginning, I think I've upset you so I'm done. Sorry about that.

mech
post #132 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by tiddler View Post

I was also under the impression that taking a picture of the screen without a projected image and using the flash was a good test for tendancy to hot spot.

If it is not a valid technique for testing a surface for tendancy to hot spot lets get that settled.

I don't think anything needs to be settled. It is the easiest way to check. I think, and there's no ill intent here, rfisher's confused. He's said he knows what it is, so I'd assume he'd realize that the brightness and the diffusion of the projected image has nothing to do with RGB data. That plus I'm buttin' out cause I wanna see his progress. And I think the only way to get to the bottom of it is for me to butt out.

rfisher,

If you would answer one more question for me though. Why do you buy laminates as substrates? Can't you find sintra near you? I'd think that would be cheaper. You really need to start a new thread with your ongoing research because it is interesting.

mech
post #133 of 251
I agree mech. With a gain of 3 and semi gloss poly and pearl paint, in a gloss base, I might add, there has to be hotspotting and viewing cone issues. Not to beat the dead horse here, but I think we would like some sort of verification on this. Like I said earlier, I'd love to have a screen with a gain of 3, and am interested in your work.
post #134 of 251
as for the laminate-as-a-substrate thing, I know that in my case I bought two sheets of laminate, DW and FG. I'm a pj nooobie, but I read enough to know that these were two solid choices and I wanted to experiment with AL rejection. My thoughts were that I might need to make a "flippy" with the laminates back-to-back. But I also may end up liking one of them enough to use for both "day and night" In that case the other will most definitely be used as a substrate for some painting experiments

post #135 of 251
I'm thinking that PS07 will not hotspot if the projector is on the ceiling and the screen is 3/5 the way up on a 9' ceiling. Yesterday I mounted the uncoated PS07 on my wall and was watching and I basically saw no sign of hotspotting. I think at the wider angles the hotspotting is non-existant.
post #136 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mech View Post


rfisher,

If you would answer one more question for me though. Why do you buy laminates as substrates? Can't you find sintra near you? I'd think that would be cheaper. You really need to start a new thread with your ongoing research because it is interesting.

mech

rfisher hasn't replied as of yet, but I'll venture to.

Sintra has not the performance found in the surface of DW. Just as in a Light Fusion Mirror app. or any specialized painted surface, the quality, hue, and amount of (or lack of) reflective tendency of a "Base" weighs heavily in determining the effect the "Base" has on the resulting image. DW is less expensive in the small size (4' x 8') and comparably priced in the "Whopper" sizes.

If one is looking toward an DIY Screen application with increased performance greater in any aspect than what is inherent in a "Stand Alone" surface, it makes sense to go with the "Stand Alone" material if it possesses qualities not easily duplicated by other methods. ("Some" type of "Paint" (or "Mix") on "Some" type of Substrate") when your looking to the "Substrate" to have such a desired effect.

DW has been tested and adjudged a excellent surface. Sintra, on the other hand is considered a "Substrate" far more than it is a "Stand Alone Screen Material".

Doable comes to mind as well. It shares only a partial amount of performance that DW musters, and is nowhere as durable at the surface level. That combined with limited supply can easily place it several notches below DW as far as "A Quality Choice" but even so it garners quite a following because it's quite a bit superior to Sintra.

ANY material from a 1st Surface Mirror / 2nd Surface Mirror / Mylar / on down into Whites and Grays can be considered as a Base for painting, if painting can effect a superior result than that material itself can muster. Be it the addition of a Simple Neutral Flat Gray to any of several different particular Top Coatings, be they designed for gain, contrast enhancement, or both.

What I see in responses like above are people expressing understandable confusion as to why anyone would bother to use a expensive material that delivers great results to try to effect "Mo Bedder" results. I see no confusion. They are looking for something beyond a certain level, and by using the best surface that reaches the current "Best" level for a starting point, they are not starting out at any disadvantage for either and both of these two reasons.

1. No need to Paint on an ideal Base Coat for a particular application
2. The assurance that the surface used will be "defect free' and smooth.

It's All Good. Just some things are "Mo Bedder". Combine Great with Excellent and you get Fabulous. That is what everyone really wants, it's just that some will pull up short finding "Easy" perfectly acceptable if the performance is at least equal to the "Ease". As in DW, a price higher than Doable or Sintra doesn't deter those looking for "Easy" but "Mo Bedder". Nor should the expense of such a material deter those looking to go from "Mo bedder" to Fabulous.
post #137 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

rfisher hasn't replied as of yet, but I'll venture to.

He has, just not regarding my question.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MississippiMan View Post

Sintra has not the performance found in the surface of DW. Just as in a Light Fusion Mirror app. or any specialized painted surface, the quality, hue, and amount of (or lack of) reflective tendency of a "Base" weighs heavily in determining the effect the "Base" has on the resulting image. DW is less expensive in the small size (4' x 8') and comparably priced in the "Whopper" sizes.

Shame on you! Has pb_maxx seen this yet?!?!? Also, I'd add that just about any substrate, outside of mirrors, is cheaper than a laminate

mech
post #138 of 251
I got laminate because I can drive about 4 miles and get it. I could drive about 20 miles and waste about and hour of my time and get any of the other materials, but why since I like laminate. I guess for me its not about the money.

I got 72" wide BOC vinyl that works really good also and is really cheap, but I wanted a surface thats as durable as a countertop.
post #139 of 251
Well OK then. I tried to give your actions merit by showing all the best reasons for your choice.....but NO! You have to go let 'em know you did it just because of simple convenienc, ......and it (DW) having a tough skin.

I bet a lot of went south on those remarks.

But at least your right.
post #140 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher1968 View Post

I'm thinking that PS07 will not hotspot if the projector is on the ceiling and the screen is 3/5 the way up on a 9' ceiling. Yesterday I mounted the uncoated PS07 on my wall and was watching and I basically saw no sign of hotspotting. I think at the wider angles the hotspotting is non-existant.

I just mounted my projector on the ceiling in a hushbox and projected onto the PS07 and It did hotspot. It was very easy to see as compared to the hotspot all of you say is there with my painted DW. So after using this setup for the weekend I will paint the PS07 with a dark metallic RGBY mix that will give me the results I'm looking for.
post #141 of 251
If a Screen & PJ combo is gonna Hot Spot, it will do so more readily from an inverted or normal sitting position if the lens is above the center of the screen. Ceiling mounting certainly achieves that situation.

Bummer that.

So do yourself a favor here. DO NOT try to use too dark a Mix. Your screen is already going to give you less reflectivity quotient than a White surface, or highly reflective one such as a Mirror or Mylar.

I'd try an application of Behr Matte Poly, sprayed on in two very light coats, or rolled on as per Tiddy's "Foam Finish Roller Instructions".

That coating will not affect anything you do later should you decide to paint another pigmented coating, HOWEVER.....should you decide to do so, and to get the most out of it, consider still using a RGB oriented Mix that contains metallics. The best ones on here DO NOT hot spot, and DO NOT drastically affect "gain". If you can spray, that is/should be the route to consider.

Let's get you into "Happy Camper" status ASAP....OK?
post #142 of 251
Home depot just called and told me my PS90 will be in on Friday. I will post images if anybody cares. Let me know you have interest otherwise I won't take or post any images.

Sorry, but I'm really busy getting my HT room finished.
post #143 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher1968 View Post

Home depot just called and told me my PS90 will be in on Friday. I will post images if anybody cares. Let me know you have interest otherwise I won't take or post any images.

Sorry, but I'm really busy getting my HT room finished.

I'm interested. I'd bet pjohnston is as well. Maybe we could then get the thread back on topic. Did you ever try out the platinum? Or were you always looking for a high gain laminate as opposed to the matte?

mech

PS. It was mainly just me who called out 'hot spotting'. You can blame me - sorry about that.
post #144 of 251
Well when I get it I will take some pictures. I never tried the platinum, does it have promise?

As for wanting alot gain, thats what I'm looking for with laminates. During daylight I have alot light entering my room and a angular reflective grey high gain screen is what I need to get the job done.
post #145 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher1968 View Post

Well when I get it I will take some pictures. I never tried the platinum, does it have promise?

As for wanting alot gain, thats what I'm looking for with laminates. During daylight I have alot light entering my room and a angular reflective grey high gain screen is what I need to get the job done.

Platinum probably won't hold much promise for what you're looking for. You might want to take a look at the different finishes. Clarence posted them on page 2 of this thread. If you call that 1-800 number they'll send you samples - they're like 1'X1' unless they have to do a special cut then it's bigger. Plus they overnight them.

mech
post #146 of 251
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher1968 View Post

Home depot just called and told me my PS90 will be in on Friday. I will post images if anybody cares. Let me know you have interest otherwise I won't take or post any images.

Sorry, but I'm really busy getting my HT room finished.

I am very interested in your experience with PS90. Please post screenshots.

-p
post #147 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by rfisher1968 View Post

Well when I get it I will take some pictures. I never tried the platinum, does it have promise?

As for wanting alot gain, thats what I'm looking for with laminates. During daylight I have alot light entering my room and a angular reflective grey high gain screen is what I need to get the job done.


I would think a retroreflective high gain screen such as DaLite's High Power works better with ambient light.
post #148 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by FremontRich View Post

I would think a retroreflective high gain screen such as DaLite's High Power works better with ambient light.

I looked at that screen and decided since my projector is mounted on the ceiling which is 9' high that It would not be a good fit for my room.
post #149 of 251
Quote:
Originally Posted by FremontRich View Post

I would think a retroreflective high gain screen such as DaLite's High Power works better with ambient light.


That screen might be bright, but it does poorly enough in ambient light as far as Contrast goes. And it sure isn't DIY so it should not be considered "On Topic" anyway.
post #150 of 251
I have a 12' wide curved screen. Any idea how PS-90 or 07 will perform in that? I am getting 12X12 samples Mon but would like to hear from others how it will be in a screen this large and curved

This is a dedicated room though some amount of ambient light is preferable so we can eat/drink etc
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