New Laminate Test: Pearl Silver - Page 8

Pear Silver and Platinum are "virtually indistinguishable", not Fashion Grey. FG is 195 188 194, a much lighter gray than the previous two.


While this could be possible, as I have yet to test any type of mica flakes/metal powders, I have doubts. As stated I have no experience with metallics, but I would hazard a guess that if said particles were within said laminate, light reflected upon it would reflect back at many different angles. Unless you're going to tell me next that it's designed with perfectly shaped flat flakes that only direct the light straight back. And if this were the case then I would surmise that said laminate should be expensive to produce. I think I've shown that in the off-axis shots, Pearl Silver blends right in with Platinum and FG for that matter.






The easiest description of the difference between the two is the finish. One is matte - which has shown itself not only in laminates but in paint mixes to be an excellent finish - and the other is Crystal. Looking at the two finishes (as I have large samples of both), the best way to describe the Crystal finish for me would be to take a gloss polyurethane, load it up in a spray gun and do one quick duster coat. Quick enough so that the poly dries seconds after hitting the laminate forming little flecks of finish upon the surface. The matte finish uses a matte poly and is allowed a bit more time to settle. Now I'm not saying the matte finish is smooth. Cause it's not. I'm just saying it's smoother than Crystal.



The big difference here is that a coating applied afterwards would smooth the surface out. Two coats of poly on my FG made it pretty much flat. It filled in all the valleys knocking out the peaks. While I've always held my theory regarding poly on Pearl Silver to myself, I think it's time to share. If you put two coats of the Behr Poly on your Pearl Silver it will result in a Platinum Laminate - matte finish of course - with no hot spotting. Betcha a lot of folks seen that coming!

Here's a macro of the finishes








My money's on the folks at Wilsonart...

Again, Pearl Silver may be an option for a very low lumen projector or with a couple topcoats. But with what's coming out today projector-wise, and the fact that some folks haven't had to topcoat their matte finish laminates, why? A similarity would be a new paint mix that let's say pb_maxx comes out with looks very promising to him. Yet after he tests it out he decides it needs a couple of poly topcoats to knock down the hot spots. The resulting screen is identical to a mix he already came out with and yet requires more steps to get to that point. What do you think he'd do?

Now don't get me wrong Bob. I realize that you have an older CRT projector. So this screen may be perfect for yours and others like it. But I don't want the folks using a new 2000+ lumen digital projector thinking that this is the thing for them. Keep up the excellent work and take some good pictures!

mech

Sorry about the confusion between Fashion Gray and Platinum- my brain clearly slipped a gear when I wrote that message ! But the point remains-- if WilsonArt is so smart, why do they make Platinum and Pearl Silver both with the "standard finish" being the "-07 textured gloss" finish? If they are virtually identical products, with identical (almost) RGB values, and identical gloss, it wouldn't make any sense. I'd dearly love to find out what the difference is.

We'll have to wait for mech to identify the photos, but I'm betting the 'sparklie' one is the Pearl Silver. (of course, if they ARE identical products, I'll feel pretty silly {not a new thing!!}, paying a premium price for the opportunity to experiment with the PS90!)

Didn't someone's (in this forum) wife comment that she disliked the PS90 because it looked like the screen was "alive with glowworms" or somthing like that? I'm betting that if that guy was using a projector a lot more powerful than ours (we're "700 peak lumens"), that what we saw as a 'luminous picture, like a plasma display" might just look freakishly 'alive with glowworms' when illuminated by a more reasonably powered PJ.

My offer still stands-- once we get some decent photos taken, and make a decision on a screen coating, I'll pay to ship my two 24" x 32" samples of PS90, one with 2 coats of Behr matte poly, one with 2 coats of "Ohgee what I thought I was making was Tiddler's mix, but now its UncleScurvy's mix". Both exhibit sight banding from the tiny Preval srayers, and the poly-only sheet took a face-dive while still wet, and was cleaned and redone poorly. But the optical qualities remain, and the purist can always just whack-em with "goof-off".

-bob

Why not just call Wilsonart and ask what the difference is? I mean everyone in here can guess and speculate, but Wilsonart can tell you exactly what the difference between them is, including the exact color.

The Platinum is laying on top of the Pearl Silver.

As to the sparkle, it's from the gloss coating that Wilsonart used and the texture difference between the two. There is no , I repeat no pearl or silver mica /flakes in the finish. As explained, many times now, if there were it would reflect the light at all angles. Including off-axis shots, of which I've posted a plethora of. And it does not reflect anything off-axis. Which is why I thought it may originally be a possibility for a low mounted projector. Time for me to put it under the microscope I guess... again.

Please folks, read the posts. I've stated this many times over...


Finally, someone with sane advice...

mech

Here it is again. They are virtually identical colors. They are not identical finishes. Crystal is a highly textured gloss finish. Matte is a less textured matte finish.


It was my wife and it was something along the lines of "sparklies" - from ~14 feet back. My Hc3000 is bright, but not as bright as what's coming out these days. I only know the ansi lumens as 1000. I run it in eco mode though and I have no idea what it is there.


You don't like my photos?


Don't let anything I say bother you Bob. I think you're doing something that at one time alot of us have done (and some haven't). When I bought my FG no one had tried it out yet. But by the time I made it back to the board someone was already talking about hot spots with their sheet purchased and hung slightly before me. I didn't let it discourage me. And then MMan, tiddler, and wbasset recommended the poly. God bless 'em! Keep goin' at it and make this thing work for ya! And don't feel silly.

mech

Todd,

Wouldn't you think that with that texture and the gloss finish, that if it were pearl/silver or whatever flakes, that it would reflect projected light at all angles? Including off axis?

I have the sample and have seen nothing with the naked eye that suggests pearl or silver flakes. The only thing to note is as I have stated, it's glossier and there's a lot more texture. I'm gonna put this thing under the microscope and try to talk to Wilsonart.

mech

Hi guys-- I've sent an email to WilsonArt, the text of which is below.

(an aside to mech- thanx for the encouragement!! -but I think you misunderstood me on the finishes-- I ordered the "-90 crystal finish" on my Pearl Siver, you got the "-60 matte finish" on your sheet of Platinum, but the STANDARD FINISH on both Pearl Silver and Platinum is the "-07 textured gloss finish"- which means that a standard sheet of Platinum (in the standard "-07 textured gloss finish" should be indistinguishable from Pearl Silver (in the standard "-07 textured gloss finish")
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi Folks!!

I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but quite a few people have been using WilsonArt laminates as viewing screens for Projection TVs. The general feeling is that either "Designer White" (D-354) or "Fashion Gray" (D-381) are the preferred colors for most projectors.

Several of us (in the Audio-Video Sciences Forum, at http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9&page=1&pp=30 ) have been experimenting with other colors, in particular, "Platinum(D-315)", and "Pearl Silver" (D-487). Our tests have raised some questions-- the RGB value of "Platinum" is 186, 179, 187; while the RGB value of "Pearl Silver" is 188, 182, 188.

This makes the colors virtually identical, but the "Pearl Silver" sometimes seems to be more "luminous". What is the difference between "Pearl Silver" and "Platinum" (is there a difference?)? Are there metallic, reflective, or pearlescent particles in the "Pearl Silver"? Thank you in advance for your time and assistance.

Warmest Regards,

-Bob

nooooooo.....up goes the price for those laminates

My thoughts too. The best of intentions are often reciprocated with a lousy response. Higher prices.

Far better to just ask a simple question, than wax eloquent about how everyone has found another, more "expensive" use for a common product. It's a tough call to make, and one that is governed by both enthusiasm and the desire to have a response returned equivalent to the importance of the query to the "poser'.

But the "asking" is well intended, and the info should put a particular Puppy to rest.

"The PROPER use of a clear matte finish can temper down the overly reflective tendencies of a surface into a range where it (reflectivity) becomes advantageous, not a detriment."

My goodness, the whole idea behind laminates is that they be "Good to Go" once received. Otherwise, there are far less expensive materials available that have perfectly smooth, white or gray textureless surfaces, and that require very simple coatings to make them perform up to and beyond MFg screen specs. If you have to coat a laminate to get exacting performance, you should also be considering the alternatives.

Proven alternatives, I might add.

It is like my wife, I keep telling her to stop volunteering more information than is needed to get the job done, contract signed, car bought, or whatever the haggle of the day is.

Bob, thank you for at least making the effort to find out the well needed information.

I wouldnt worry about Wilsonart raising prices. They make far more money from sales for countertop use. I wouldnt put it past Home Depot to raise their prices though for full size sheets, or tack on some outrageous handling fee above and beyond what they already charge.

gray ??? really?? I don't recall any references in my months of reading ... I was prepared to add a single coat of poly to my sheet of FG laminate, but found it unneccesary...


fortunately, nobody (that we know of) has written to Home Depot for such info

Yes.

mech

There has never been any experimentation done with regards to finishes until Pearl Silver. Due to the high glossometer readings of all the finishes except -60 matte, they were all pretty much disregarded. I know what you have and I know what I have, what's your point? Where exactly does the -07 finish come into play? I don't have any of it and I'm sure no one else does so I'm a bit confused as to what you're trying to say... Oh wait, my platinum sample is -60. Is that what you were wondering?

mech

Well said! Just out of curiousity MMan, what do you think would be the difference between a gloss poly'd surface with loads of texture and a matte poly surface with less texture?

mech

Alright, youse guys, pipe down and relax

As Mr. Senin said, Wilsonart sells a lot of countertop laminate-- a quick look at the annual report for their 'mother company, ITW' shows that Wilsonart Laminates discontinued one product line, and took a 9 million dollar writeoff. That's a lot of sheets of countertop, compared to a few dozen guys making PJ screens. At most, to them, we're an interesting curiosity--

....and mech, the point I'm trying to make, (Just for a moment, forget about the use of laminate for PJs) -- is that Wilsonart makes thousands of sheets a year of Platinum (in gloss "-07") and Pearl Silver (in gloss -"07"), which they sell to people who want shiny gray countertops.

These two colors, in the same "-07 gloss finish" are virtually identical products. Why do they bother to make two colors, when they could just make ONE in a wider variety of finishes, and gain economies of scale? Only WilsonArt can tell us.
If their IS a difference, especially if it involves metallics or pearlescents, that would make Pearl Silver worth as you said, 'putting under the microscope'.

I gotta tell you guys, working on this screen and participating in this forum have both been educational and fun! And I'm a big, dumb, Swede, with thick skin, so don't worry about hurting my feelings!

-bob

Also look at it kinda like satin and eggshell paint finishes. Same base colors, very slightly different sheens...

Bob does have a point though, if it was merely the same color but different surface coating that wouldn't make sense to do two seperate production runs.

Textured Gloss - 7
A textured finish which reproduces the high sheen of waxed wood furniture. Recommended for horizontal and vertical applications.

Matte - 60
A non-directional textured finish with a moderate reflective quality. Recommended for horizontal and vertical applications. Standard on many Wilsonart® Laminates.

Also a quick call to Wilsonart, Angie said that the Pearl Silver is a 'new design' and is part of the premium grade laminates (read, more expensive) while Platinum, FG, and all the others are the standard finish/grade. The main difference is that the standard finish laminates are a solid and single color, while the premium grade laminate has a different texture and color pattern as well as coming in a semi-gloss finish. Also the Pearl Silver is described as more of a metal look.

This means that there is a slightly different texture between the two as well as a much higher surface sheen and specular gain. Also Pearl Silver isnt a 'solid' color, which is probably what is being seen with the dots or 'sparklies' in the Alice's Restaurant style pictures above.

For Bob's situation and having a somewhat older and lower lumen projector, (please dont take that as an insult) he is probably fine with the PS, but for some of the newer high lumen, high CR projectors out there it is going to hot spot. Probably very similar to satin or semi-gloss paint. Add in that it is not one solid color and these high lumen projectors will probably sparkle, especially during fast pans across the screen.

It sounds like a classic case of what may work for one person or a few, may not be something that works for everyone. Personally my money would be on either FG or Platinum, but I have a high output projector too.

I think a good person to ask this question would be a home decorator. also ask them why there are something like a gazillion yellows!!

mech

It really doesn't look like metal though. It looks gray...


I perused it under the microscope and I'll eat my crow now... it does appear to have some type of a pearl type mica or flakes in there. Unless it's the high gloss finish. I always knew my kids microscope may come in handy someday!

This 200X.


This is 60X


Paul and Bob,

I apologize. There definitely appears to be some sort of mica or something in there.

Anyone have a little ketchup for my crow?!?!?!

mech

By metal, she could have been refering to the sheen, although gun metal is a grayish color.


That sounds exactly like what Angie was saying on the phone. She said the standard grade laminate is one solid color, and the premium isnt and you just showed that clearer than day.

Can you throw a piece of FG under the microscope too?

Nope but I did Platinum... makes me think I may be eatin' crow a little early too


These are 2 at 200X





You can see some sparklies in this as well just not as many or as bright. Which is swinging me back to the finish thing.

Here's 60X



Takin' the labcoat off now....

mech

mech, you can eat your crow later, if you really feel the need! right now, we are faced with an interesting prospect- (and awaiting more detail from Wilsonart), and I'd like to borrow your brain and experience--

We have a (perhaps under-evaluated) material that can be bent into a smooth curve, has a dead neutral RGB value, a "metallic" appearance (not that you or I saw, but hey, they make the stuff...), seems to exhibit difficult to describe optical qualities when lit by a low powered PJ, and although it seems to contain some type of flakes or pearlmix, does NOT reflect light off-axis, but behaves as if the particles were all laid "perfectly flat".

Now that's a material that might have possibilities, especially for those with low-powered PJ's and difficulty controlling ambient light.

We'll probably put a matte coating on our screen, because our early quick-and-dirty test showed hotspotting on the virgin material, none on the Behr Matte Poly or the Unclescurvy's mix panels-- but we want to take a closer look. (Note that even with the matte coatings, this stuff looked 'luminous' with that old PJ)

Thank you for taking the time to throw this stuff under the scope-- I know you were getting a little frustrated with Paul and I, but we just kept seeing stuff in this surface that didn't make sense to us-- I'll post here as soon as I get a response from Wilsonart-- maybe then you'll be able to help us put together a theory as to whats going on with this stuff.

thanxs for all, and skip the crow!

-bob

I dont want to come across the wrong way, but the standard finish on Fashion Grey, Platinum, DW, and I think most if not all of the standard color series of Wilsonart laminates is the matte finish, not the textured gloss finish.

http://samples.wilsonart.com/p-248-f...y-d381-60.aspx

Bob, I'm curious about the mix you are using. How translucent is it? It definitely will knock down the semi-gloss sheen of the PS, but depending on how translucent it is, it may not matter if you put it on Pearl Silver, or just a nice gray paint.

Wilsonart says it's a semi-gloss surface, but it doesn't look quite that shiny from the pictures, is it in person? Most of the paints and paint bases people use are flat, then there is a matte finish, an eggshell, satin, semi-gloss, gloss, and high gloss. If this is semi-gloss, it is going to hot spot something fierce. Your top coating looks interesting though.

How well does the Preval sprayer work? I was actually looking into them myself for a couple of projects.

I must be really lazy... you guys are really doing yeomens' work and research on these laminates. I love my DW just as it is...

It does look shiny in person, especially when compared to the matte finish. And it does hot spot something fierce. I couldn't recall the separate finishes, thanks for posting those. It appears that Pearl Silver would be three up from matte and darn near high gloss.

mech

Yikes! Mr Sennin is right--- my distributer seems to stock everything in "-07" gloss, so I figgered that was a Wilsonart practice-- must just be my local supplier.

and in response to your question, the behr matte poly is completely transparent; the "unclescurvy's" mix that I used is very translucent-- I'd guess it'd take 10-20 coats or more to make it opaque. The Preval units work well, but they are best for very small projects-- trying to paint a big sheet like my 24"x32" samples leaves 'banding', no matter how hard I tried to get the overlap right

Lastly, a response from Wilsonart, below:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello, thank you for the e-mail. Yes, you are right. The difference is in the (D-487-7) Pearl Silver LS is, the pearlescent particles in the Pearl Silver. If you should need any additional information, please call 1-800-433-3222 and ask for our Technical Division. Thank you for choosing Wilsonart.

Noah
Wilsonart International, Inc.
Smartline@wilsonart.com
1-800-400-2322

Here is the complete list of WilsonArt surface finishes, from glossiest to least glossy. Note that with a glossometer reading of 10 +/- 2 both matte and 'touchstone' are the same gloss (different textures). The "Crystal" finish of the PS90 is the second least glossy (or 'most matte') with a glossometer reading of 13 +/- 3. The crystal finish has some 'shine' to it, but I wouldn't call it "very glossy" by any means (I think it someone else compared it to a 'glass-beaded' metal suface in reflectivity).

Shinier than the matte, sure, but on a Glossometer scale of 1-100, "Matte-60" is "10", "High Gloss-01" is a "100", and "Textured gloss-07" reads 36, 360% shinier than "Matte-60". "Crystal-90" comes in at a 13, about 30% shiner than "Matte-60".

The "Crystal-90" finish will in all probablility need a matte topcoat.

#1 High Gloss
A mirror sheen finish which gives a smooth, brilliant appearance. Excellent for any vertical application. Laminates with a high gloss finish can be used for horizontal application only in light use areas. We recommend that it not be used on horizontal work surfaces such as countertops. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 100 +/- 10.

#52 Quarry
Premium finish emulating the pitted look of polished natural stone. Available on a select number of designs only. Glossometer reading: MD 55 +/- 5.

#35 Mirage
A lightly textured finish featuring subtle variations in matte and glass, creating the illusion of depth. Available only in the WilsonartHD product line; not available on other patterns or colors. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 50 +/- 20.

#7 Textured Gloss
A textured finish which reproduces the high sheen of waxed wood furniture. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Available only on those designs for which it is the standard finish. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 36 +/- 3.

#38 Fine Velvet Texture
A smooth textured finish with moderate reflective value. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Available only on those designs for which it is the standard finish. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 14 +/- 2.

#90 Crystal
A very finely beaded texture that minimizes smudges and finger marks and improves scratch resistance. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 13 +/- 3.

#50 Touchstone
A pebbled texture with the look and feel of coarse-grained sand. Recommended for vertical and non-writing horizontal surfaces in residential and commercial applications. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 10 +/- 2.

#60 Matte
Textured finish with a moderate reflective quality. Recommended for horizontal and vertical application. Glossometer reading: MD and CD 10 +/- 2.