For all D-Box enthusiasts ! - Page 3

It is nice to see studio support for discrete tactile and motion channels. I have heard about this and it is very exciting.

I wish studios would support a dedicated discrete .1 channel for tactile transducers as well. Buttkickers are much more affordable for the masses and very effective in the 5-200 Hz range... (although all tactile devices should have adequate output from 5-500 Hz or at least 5-400 Hz)

Although I will likely purchase a D-BOX based setup late in 2007... I need to evaluate D-BOX tactile capabilities further. I was able to Demo a DBOX setup in Delaware last year and it was impressive. I forget what the upper frequency range is of the D-BOX, but I believe it is around 100 Hz??

Clarke Synthesis really are a bunch of complete Morons, seriously. Did they even bother to consult a physician or neurophysiologist? There is no such thing as full range tactile!! Anything above 500 Hz or so is no longer tactile, it is audio. No neuroreceptors (pacian corpuscles) function to sense tactile above 500 Hz... At the same time, I hate to see tactile transducers and motion/tactile limited to 100 Hz... Ideally there would be 1-500 Hz tactile mixed for a discrete channel. This is gone over thoroughly in my signature file.

In my mind the two best products on the Market are D-BOX and Buttkicker, Buttkicker being more affordable and limited to tactile (but better at tactile). While D-BOX does both, but I think is limited to about 100 Hz tactile. It would be great if D-Box can somehow improve their product so you can boost the frequency response to about 400 Hz, to more adequately cover the tactile range.

(Clarke Synthesis, I have to say are a bunch of morons... I'd like to know how in the earth they think anyone can feel 1kHz, lt alone 10,000 Hz).

the ideal range would cover the human tactile range of 1-500 Hz... 1-400 Hz would be adequate...

I used to put Buttkicker at #2 to D-Box, but after being thoroughly impressed with the Crowson, I have to knock Buttkicker to #3.

Working from memory, I think the D-BOX goes up to 200Hz, but I might be mistaken. I certainly don't want to have tactile get up into the audio range and if they have content above a certain point, it would be nice to have a user selectable roll off if they did have a .1 tactile channel. Of course, I would prefer a 4-channel D-BOX track that could then be downmixed to a .1 for single channel tactile systems. That would give us the best for each camp except for the slight additional processing needs to downmix for tactile systems.

I'll have to Google Crowson and check it out...

I have two of the original buttkickers with the 9 Hz resonance frequency and they are wonderfully built and accurate pieces... I tend to like wide platforms, so I'm not sure how I'm going to incorporate D-Box yet... I'll cross that bridge later this year...


Well, you wouldn't have to worry about inappropriate audio information getting into your tactile transducers if you had a discrete mix from the studio. They would mix that channel specifically for tactile feedback and 'you are there' kinds of effects. Physiology states that 1-500 Hz would cover the range of our vibrotactile system... the closest to that, the better... But I think 5-400 is excellent.... The original buttkickers have plenty of motion in the 5-200 Hz range (resonance freq of 9 Hz)...

Well, the ideal scenerio would be to get D-Box to improve output up to about 400 Hz to more adequately cover the vibrotactile system... I hope this is one of their goals...

Hopefully D-BOX and other Tactile companies will educate people about the true role of tactile transducers and motion systems. They are a completley different modality and sensory system than audio, yet people, even tactile transducer companies feel the need to market them as quiet subwoofers and replacements or enhancements to subwoofers, which is NOT true. It is about using the vibrotactile sensory system and nothing to do with the audio system (although there is some important overlap of course)

A Blu Ray specification for a 0.1 tactile track (1-500 Hz) would be nice, but it seems as though Fox could add motion codes easily... so they could also encode a seperate tactile track as an additional 0.1 audio channel. Like an LFE, but specifically mixed for tactile and allowing for up to 400 or 500 Hz (instead of 200 Hz limitation by LFE). Of course I hope people can only imagine how wonderful a dicretely mixed track would be, specifically designed for tactile...

Interesting... they seem to have a product that fully covers the vibrotactile proprioception modality.... 1-500 Hz... very nice. I'm going to have to look into this product some more as well as look into D-Box to see if they can't get some improved frequency up into the 400 or 500 Hz range....

Well, I applaud FOX tremendously because the truth is that the only way to get us closer to virtual reality and more involvement in films is to us all of our senastions. The Vibrotactile system is a discrete modailty which requires a dicrete channel... Using an audio mix, such as the LFE channel is inapproprite, contains innapprorite levels and wrong (audio) information. The wonders of a dicrete tactile channel are amazing.

Now I don't know who is working on smell or taste, but I can wait a little while for those I don't think I want to smell the gladiators or the battlefield Now Jessica Alba....

Crowson is excellent - much more accurate than the Butt kickers I had IMHO. Acid test for me is that I did not need to turn the Crowson's off for concert DVD's whereas with the BK's I had to - too crude/sloppy and it was a distraction/distortion.

Question for D Box owners. Have you compared the performance of the custom platform versus the Seat. Which did you prefer and why? Thanks.

Another analogy would be having speakers only reproduce sound to 10,000 Hz instead of 20,000 Hz.... Same goes for tactile... You would want the full range covered which would be to around 500 Hz...


Well that is good news. I found the original buttkickers to be extremely powerful and articulate. Of course, Buttkickers depend entirely on how they are employed and the platform design, etc.... I think the devices themselves are outstanding. I have never found a reason to abandon the original buttkickers for anything other than a D-BOX. I'm afraid the smaller Buttkicker 2's that came out later where not quite as good as the original. I think they simply wanted them smaller to 'fit' more applications. I think they may have traded a smaller size and loss some quality/power handling. Although I can't be sure since I did not try the Buttkicker 2's. The specs always seemd inferior with inferior power handling (much smaller).

That being said it is nice to hear good things about Crowson and it is great to have more excellent choices! I have to go back and look at the latest D-Box offerings as well... Certainly, it would be great if there were a STANDARD 0.1 channel for tactile rather than rely on support for one companies products. I sincerely hope that other studios improve their procuts and embrace the constantly growing home theater market. The home theater market deserves and needs specialized attention, not just commercial theater hand-me-downs. Three cheers for FOX!!!

Does this 500Hz tactile thing really matter with discrete D-box motion codes? The thing that I love with the Odyssey is not the vibration that you feel from butt kickers, it is the movement in sync with the movie. It's the ducking and weaving etc... And when D-box wants you to feel it, you certainly feel it, unless you guys are numb or something. It seems to shake the room about in some scenes, how much more power do you need?

One has nothing to do with the other:

3D motion = Excellent (measured by position, velocity and acceleration m/s)

Vibrotactile = Excellent (1-500 Hz)

Discrete Mixed track = Excellent and absolutely neccessary for both motion and Vibrotactile. (using audio information such as the LFE channel for tactile is crude and innapropriate, but it does 'work' in some sense. Nowhere near the capabilities or reality of what a dedicated discrete tactile channel could do...)

Humans have a vibrotactile as well as a motion sensatory system that uses parts of the inner ear for balance (semicircular canals) and linear acceleration (vertical and horizontal, (utricle and saccule)) as well as specialized nerve endings that sense vibration (pacinian corpuscles).

Vibration and tactile sensation are limited to about 1-500 Hz. You want to use the full range (1-500 Hz) for *vibration*, just like you want to use up to 20,000 Hz *audio* for your ears. You wouldn't want a company to roll off your audio at 10,000 Hz would you? No, of course not. For feel/touch/vibrations, you want 1-500 Hz information present.... and you want the appropriate vibration/motion present. you don't want audio information in your tactile channel, although there is some overlap in the sense that audio can induce vibration sensation in our skin, etc... It is the art of the mixer to replicate the proper motion and vibration information in the discrete channel and to know what degree of GAIN is approriate.

What you are experiencing with the D-BOX is the amazing discrete codes... You COULD do this with Buttkickers in terms of discrete information. The Buttkickers cannot do 3D motion or any real motion however. Nontheless, a discrete tactile track would be amazing... and tactile transducers are very affordable for mass consumers...

In fact, I'm not sure how many of you know: BUTTKICKER tried to employ and integrate with D-Box's Motion codes/system. For some reason they were not able to integrate them properly. Likely because D-Box is an intergated motion and vibrotactile system... I don't think they were able to successfully use it for vibrotactile only... A studio such as Fox would have to mix a discrete tactile track.

The ideal system would be the Oddessy system with a 1-500 Hz frequency range. You are very correct to say that D-BOX is superior because it most certainly is... D-Box does 3-D motion and vibration while tactile transducers are limited to tactile and some degree of very limited vertical motion.

It comes down to cost as well. I'd like to see tactile reach mainstream. It may be cost prohibitive for "motion and tactile" to reach mainstream, so I'd like to see tactile transducers get supported thru a dedicated 0.1 track. This is so easily done and takes absolutely no significant bandwidth, so it is just a matter of studio support. It would be great for Fox and others to support D-BOX as well as a discrete tactile transducer channel...

That being said I'm thrilled about FOX and the support for D-BOX which is the best of the best. I can only hope they can improve their product to get more upper frequency response to at least get into the 400 Hz range...

(This is why Clarke Synthesis are a bunch of morons, full range tactile is 1-500 Hz, not 20,000 Hz... bunch of idiots. Are they still around?)

Wow this is the most intense two days I miss so far great ideas exchange here I like it.

Health Nut you are right that tactile requires 1 to 500 hz on the audio side...

Since we are coding movies frame by frame it won't apply the same way as we control what is being mix and sent to the actuators or tactile transducers. The unit that buttkicker was testing a while ago is coming out soon, people will be able to enjoy movies with our motion codes on their TT(which is going to be like a .1 channel)... we have been so busy working on other project that we will be working on a new version with 2 or 4 channel by the time we launch this one . This will be a more affordable solution and with the help of Fox and hopefully other studios we will have the motion to be part of the stream and being a standard.

The motion really make sense when you watch a full movie (or more than one but then you will be completely incapable of watching a movie without it ... LOL) not only a demo so if you have a chance go for it.

It's like comparing apples and oranges... since we are coding the motion it's simply not the same

Let me find out the person and I will get back to you all Trust me we want this to work asap ...

heheheh Randy thanks my friend!

We are just talking here hehehe no harmed feelings plus I want to have everyone's opinion afterall you are the people making us continue improving our stuff... If there was a slight possibility for us to make it work it would already have been done. The way the HDDVD format works is that they go thru a decoder to mix down to 5.1 and that freaking decoder is sending a different signal each time you play the same movie so their is no way for us to synchronize with it. But it's true as soon as we have a feedback on the HDDVD this is the first place I'm going to post it.

Regarding the sticker, it's only for the Fox bluray titles that the motion codes are embedded in the disk that you will find them. We do the others for Fox or other studios just like we do DVD's and we make them available for downloads.

I prefer the 3 axis Quest chair because you get more motion out of it (1,5 inch compare to 3/4 inch), but the platform gives you a different feeling when it comes to vibration that is better (to me anyway). I know that Mike P. has both too, what do you say Mike?

Excellent. Last I talked with those guys at Guitammer, they were having some difficulty integrating the D-BOX setup with their tactile... I'm glad they are getting it worked out...

The Crowson units don't seem to have much excursion, but they claim 1-500 Hz capability which is excellent... I have to look at the technical aspects...

For those talking about buttkickers, I seriously hope you weren't hooking them to couches directly or anything cheesy... they really require dedicated platforms with special rubber feet or similar custom integration.

I'd also like to know more about the tactile capabilities of the D-BOX. I was able to demo the Oddessey using an IMAX race care DVD about 2 years ago in Delaware... I certainly felt the tactile, but one DVD and 10 minutes of testing is nowhere near enough for any conclusion.

Is there some reason that the Odessey actuators are limited to 100 Hz...?

About D-BOX.... I can understand the custom motion coding... However, how do you create the tactile portion of the coding? Im some sense, if you really wanted to go all out, you could create effects or record natural effects and adjust the gains so they are appropriate for tactile. Another instance, when a character lands from jumping 10 feet, often the LFE does nothing... Yet there SHOULD be tactile... Obviously creating the tactile portion of the coding requires a combination of the soundtrack elements as well as manufactured 'creative' elements, and REMOVAL of unwanted soundtrack elements. It would be quite a feat to properly mix and create a 'proper' discrete tactile track... but the payoff is immense. How are you deriving the tactile portion of the custom track?

Currently, I'm also into custom seating using multiple (4) armless chaise lounges (each 40 inches wide) all side by side to make a giant maximized viewing area of a little over 13 feet wide... all sitting on a plaform with special tall rubber feet and 3000 watts into each original Buttkicker (excellent for non compressed peaks). The Odessey system seems to work best on individual seats or small platforms of about two seats width, last I checked... that is something I'd have to look into as well.

I watched the demo on the website of how you analyze the soundtrack audio for translation into tactile... very impressive. It certainly is an art... Defintely requires knowing what should and should NOT be felt and to what degree (gain relative to other sensations going on at the same time). Using audio tracks by themselves, such as an LFE track is terrible... I'll be so thankful when I don't have to derive tactile information from the audio soundtrack... its just innacurate, completely misses effects that should be there (but aren't) and too much inappropriate information in the audio soundtrack that should not be conveyed as tactile... Then comes the art of just how powerful or how subtle to make an effect as well as creating custom effects... how much fun, and hard work it would be to create those effects... How much fun it would be to create coding for Sci Fi films where you would have much room for freedom to add artistic tactile effects Creating the motion and tactile track for Star Wars films in Blu Ray will be a real treat!! HA! STAR WARS, FOX, BLU RAY, D-BOX.... sounds good to me!!

I noticed the larget platform recomended is 5' x 12' It also seems that while larger platforms work, you get less effect the wider the platform is, at least in terms of motion. Tactile should be constant... Well, assuming they don't start to have diminished output as they approach the heavier weights as they get closer to the 2,000 lbs limit...

Also, last I checked D-BOX actuators were limited to 100 Hz... that was one of my concerns. I was hoping over the last few years they could have gotten the frequency response up to at least 400 Hz.... ideally 500, but 400 would be fine...

I still don't understand the need for D-box to support a greater frequency response. If they are motion coding a movie, aren't they deciding what should be felt and how much, regardless of what is going through the LFE channel? Or am I confused?

Again I really do understand where you come from but since we create it all it the frequency doesn't matter since it's not the audio feed you get, it's based on it but it's not it. Everything is redone frame by frame, the motion is according to what we see the vibration is based on the audio.

the 100hz limitation is coming from the motors.

You are not confused... that's why you need to feel it experience it for a few movies to fully understand.

1) The LFE channel is an audio channel and has nothing to do with this discussion. Forget about the LFE channel in anything we are talking about because it doesn't affect or have anything to do with tactile, other than some of the LFE 'information' will also be present in the tactile channel during construction of the tactile channel. After all a big 'thud is often felt and heard' the degree to which it is felt is determined by how far the actor is away from the incident and what the actor would be feeling.

I only brought up the LFE channel because many people use it as the channel they derive their tactile signal from, which is not appropriate.

Soundtrack information needs is part of what should be included in a tactile channel, but only part... and further, it needs to be picked thru with certain components removed, certain enhanced, and certain reduced... not to mention custom effects added! All four of those elements are crucial in creating a dedicated tactile track.


Human tactile perection is from 1-500 Hz range... Last I checked, the D-BOX actuators were limited to about 100 Hz, could be 200 Hz but last I read was 100 Hz a while back. My analogy was: Would you want your speakers to roll-off at 10,000 Hz? Of course not. So why would you want your tactile system to roll off at 100 or 200 Hz, when in life we feel up to 500 Hz...

You yourself acknowledge that the human vibortactile system is 1-500 Hz. Your actuators are limited to 100 Hz as you say. You are limited in the sense that you cannot convey the full spectrum of vibrotactile information because of the motor limitation. Motion is no problem... outstanding.

However, even look on your own demo as you analyze the frequencies of various effects: You have plenty of vibratory/tactile information between 100-500 Hz that you are NOT able to convey because the actuators are not able to move at that frequency.

Although D-BOX is still the best overall system available, technically, CROWSON is able to provide tactile throughout the entire range of human sensation from 1-500 Hz. Your motion system does 3D motion wheras tactile transducers cannot... Nonetheless, your products have a weakness in they cannot at this current time replicate the full range of tactile... Hopefully someday your engineers will be able to provide motors capable of higher frequencies.

It doesn't matter that you code each frame. I totally understand the process. The problem is that there *is * tactile information that you cannot code because of the limitation of the motors frequency repsonse. Has there been any work or goals to improve the frequency response... 100 Hz is too low... Your effects could be improved if you were able to use the entire tactile range and code effects using the entire spectrum of 1-500 Hz... So many harmonics and subharmonics that could be conveyed that are not, whether they are synthesized or not, enhanced, etc, that is all artistic choice.

If your motors are limited with no chance of being able to do up to at least 400 Hz in the future, I would recommend a hybrid approach and combine Crowson products with your motion system perhaps...

Sure... you are right! but it's not something we are planning on doing.

I hope your engineers and design team look into this further... Who is to say you could not achieve motors capable of higher freqencies... or perhaps go the hybrid route...

Anyway, things are headed in the correct direction. I'm loking forward to more studio support of D-BOX as well as tactile...

Well you see the thing is you are comparing audio to what we do and it's totally different because an audio signal is a sinus wave and we are creating motion codes with sinus, cosinus, square wave etc... so our frequency range is way different than 1 to 100 hz... I will have one of the guy to log on and explain it to you better.

If any of you have pictures of their home theatre with D-Box and would like them to be posted on our website we are looking for some. Please send them my way

HI, I'm really glad to see you are interested in D-Box technologie. I'm the lead kinetic artist at D-Box.
I will just explain some simple basis about motion and vibrations. I'm Not trying to sell you the system but just lay some actual facts.

1-the frequency range

True D-box system is limited to 100Hz but not at 5Hz! It goes from 0Hz to 100Hz. Ok you're thinking well that's a difference of 5 Hz! Well it's more that just 5Hz; all the MOTION is in that range. This is the major difference between D-box and ANY other system that vibrates. D-Box MOVES up to 1 1/2 inch!!!!. In all oter product I have tried, Frequencies below 5 Hz aren't there and the 5Hz to 8hz range often do really weird things. The D-Box system actually move according to the action on screen (I'll get back on this).
Now for everything over 100Hz. We could actually go up to 200Hz, why don't we do it? You won't feel it! And it's awful distracting. the more you go over 100Hz the less you can feel it. And this is even worst with a good and comfortable couch. The thicker your padding are the less you are going to feel. So unless you sit on a fiber glass chair, you won't feel much. And the human ear can hear from 20Hz to 20kHz, if you don"t want your seat to over ride the sound of the movie you can"t go too high in the frequency range, other wise you won't feel the vibration but you will hear it. So it's way below1kHz that it becomes out of the vibration range.

But the thing is even with a limit at 100Hz, we have way more possibilities than other system. Why? because we can use a wide range of flavor of sine waves. We do not just use nomal sinewaves but we can do hundreads of different texture so it feels exacly like the sound in the movie, which brings me to my second point.

2-The artists

At D-Box we have dedicated Kinetic artist that actually "program" the vibration frame-by-frame to fit exactly the action on screen. You you MOVE AND VIBRATE according to the sound and image on screen. And nothing happend when nothing happens. The best exemple I know to demonstrate this is Batman begins. When Batman talks his voice is in the subwoofer track. So with any other system than D-Box you will vibrate to the voice (if you ask me it's really anoying). And then you have the huge Batmobile ride and...... well not much happens. Why? Beecause other system just take the subwoofer track and produce vibration with that. D-Box have artists that take it to a whole new level. That voice of batman will be only heard and then the Batmobile ride is going to be the ride of a life time!!! You are going the feel every turn of the car, every rev of the ingine, all the brakes, explosions, every little details as the Batmobile rides on roof top and breaks pieces of it, but not the batman's voice. That's Another Huge difference.
The movie being "program" is making a huge difference in the texture you are going to feel as well. A Harley Davidson is NOT going to feel like a mini, A rifle is not going to feel like a punch in the face. We have a Really wide possibilities of textures that makes other system feel like the same over and over. And we can put as my details As it need, so it'a not just a big rumble that goes on and on thru the whole movie.

Well all this to say that the limited frequency range is not an issue at all. You will get way more with d-box than with any other system. And it's the ONLY system that MOVES (up to 1 1/2 inch) and not only shakes

If you are not convinced of the major diffence; try both, Once you sit on a D-Box sytem I'm ready to bet you will NEVER go back to anything else.

Wow!! it is really great to have both of you contributing to this forum.

I believe, I was one of the first in this country to have a system with 4 sets of actuators. It has been fantastic watching the speed of the changes at D-box over the years, and my movie watching has certainly been enhanced all these years as well.

One of the the effects that I enjoy most, with the D-box system, is the weightless effect. When there are fly over scenes, which take place in a whole lot of movies, the motion is so gentle and subtle, but it gives you the sense that you are actually flying. It is an incredible feeling, and fun to watch the faces of my guests who are experiencing it for the first time. Try to recreate that effect with vibration only systems!! Chris, you have to get yourself one of these.

Keep up the great work guys.

I agree with you. I understand entirely the superiority of motion capabilities and I do understand 0-500 meaning you are capable of holding a position indefinitley. However, I am going to keep repeating that where you and I do not see eye to eye is on the tactile portion. I am in agreement with Crowson when it comes to fully utilizing the human tactile sensation. You should not limit the effects to 100 Hz.... tactile experiences in real like are upwards of 500 Hz... of course blind people can sense higher but that is not the point. The point is that while I accnowledge your overall superiority and the ability to do 3D motion, I disagree with you on the tactile capabilities.

I do realize that the furniture itself does attenuate the higher frequencies, but that is another issue and nothing to the fact of the goal of virtual reality which is in essense of what we seek and of course takes the basic and full understanding of neurophysiology. Again, the only weankess I see in your product is lack of ability to vibrate above 100 Hz. You say you can do 200 Hz, but my guess is that you would have to lower the excursion or make some sort of tradeoff to attain higher frequency response from the actuators. I believe that is the closer reason to the truth. there is no NEGATIVE to being able to provide up to 500 Hz tactile information, this is desireable for the analgoy given previously.


Again, I have zero concern about D-BOX motion capabilities, you are preaching to the choir when it comes to D-BOX ability to do 0-100 Hz and I do very much appreciate that fact.


Because like anything in physics, you haven't found a way to have 1.5 inch excursion and be able to reproduce 200+Hz without a tradeoff most likely.... Because ideally you would be able to have 1.5 inch excursion and up to 500 Hz frequency response. I agree with Crowson in this manner. I have had a long discussion with them as well. You are both great companies, but I cannot condone human physiology and the goals we all seek.


This is a bit more complicated... It is partially do to attentuation by the fabric and foam in the furniture to some degree but this can be addressed. Phyiologically you would be incorrect, people can sense upwards of 500 Hz via tactile, but you are correct in the sense that this is not linear just like there is a hearing sensitivity curve, there is a tactile curve.... That still is not the point. The point is to know human physilogy and how best to create virtual reality, after all, that is the goal here is to recrate what the actor is experiencing...


Two different issues. Please separate them: 1) Should not be distracting. If it is, the information is not coded properly. 2) Yes, the material in the couch does attenuate the higher frequencies, but this is a separate issue.


The answer is obviously something in-between. This is just physics, and proper material have been addressed that can offer the best possible scenario... I know this has been addressed by manufacturers working with Crowson. It is just a matter of design, like anything... what are the design goals and tradeoffs... this is obviously a much larger discussion.


Could not agree with you more... That is specifically what I have been writing all along. this is why people like Clark Synthesis give tactile a bad name because they don't know what they are talking about and clearly misinform people with their lack of understanding of basic neurophysiology.

Overall, I think D-BOX has the best overall system... That doesn't mean it is perfect or that there is no room for further improvement.

And soon you'll be able to tell us which one you prefer the integrated system or the platform system

hehehe well we have reach another level here fun though. One thing for sure there is room to improve and there always will...

Chris not only you need to have one, you need to make a trip to Montreal so would understand how it's done :0 joke aside it's interesting but I don't think we will settle on this. All I can tell you is that when we modify the signal into a different sinewave i.e. a cosinus or a square wave everything you think the system as limitation with we can recreate and so much more. So yes it's limited, but we can recreate it differently. I do understand the point it's just how we do it that changes thing we can't just refer to specs because the input signal is not the same... does it make sense to you?

Wil Dbox be integrated with Crowson any time soon. This is a stop gap for me as I will purchase a full DBox solution at some point FOR SURE. Still undecided as to whether to go for a custom platform or 3 chairs.

Yannick, is there a demo room in Montreal to test both the platform and chair? DO I need to book an appointment?

Other question is, how effective is Dbox for concerts. How do you guys program for that kind of material? I assume that bass guitar and drums are the main focus. This is just as important to me as movies.

In terms of Crowson versus Butt Kickers, Crowson simply has a better industrial design that BK based upon the fact that it is a piston driven solution versus a horizontal shake method. Doesn't matter how you install the BK, they will never be as good as Crowson IMHO.