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PS3 and it's hardware scaler - Page 5

post #121 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by spwolf View Post

so what, 2 months after its release, Sony managed to solve 2 "major" PS3 problems? Support for scaling, and almost 100% support for PS2 games?

yikes... what will happen in next 2 months? PS3 makes me an breakfast in the morning, and does loundry for the significant other?

:-)

maybe they can squeeze an option to start at the XMB when you start it up with a game in ?
post #122 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robocop2 View Post

maybe they can squeeze an option to start at the XMB when you start it up with a game in ?

thats definetly my first choice for features... Yet, some people complain that it doesnt autoplay movies when you just put them in (not at startup)... figures :-)
post #123 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by spwolf View Post

thats definetly my first choice for features... Yet, some people complain that it doesnt autoplay movies when you just put them in (not at startup)... figures :-)

Simple solution, just make it a user selectable option in menu
post #124 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robocop2 View Post

maybe they can squeeze an option to start at the XMB when you start it up with a game in ?


There's a current workaround that one....create a guest account and turn off auto log in on both. Upon start up, it will ask you to choose a user (like a Mac or PC)...and voila..you're at the XMB with no auto start up of the game.
post #125 of 280
hmmm good idea thanks
post #126 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetrii View Post

Actually, that is not completely true. A 720P game scaled to 1080P does look a bit better on most TVs.

A 720p game scaled up to 1080p for a 1080p-native TV will look better than a 720p game output to a 1080p-native TV without scaling.

However, this is not the point at all.

The point is that a game rendered at 1080 will look better than a game scaled up from 720 when output to a 1080p-native TV.
post #127 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dralt View Post

A 720p game scaled up to 1080p for a 1080p-native TV will look better than a 720p game output to a 1080p-native TV without scaling.

However, this is not the point at all.

The point is that a game rendered at 1080 will look better than a game scaled up from 720 when output to a 1080p-native TV.

It actually depends. A native 1080P game will look better than the same game upscaled to 1080P from 720P. However, a 720P game with 4x FSAA and other enhancements with the power and memory lost in the 1080P version would probably look better.

But if the game supports both resolutions natively and the 720P version was not enhanced with the extra power available, then yea, the 1080P version would look better.
post #128 of 280
From what I've been reading on other hardware-oriented boards, the "hardware scaler" they are talking about isn't the same thing as the xbox 360's dedicated ana or hana chips - it's actually the RSX, using more of it's memory to do the scaling. The RSX is hardware, so technically they can call it a "hardware scaler".
post #129 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by epsilon72 View Post

From what I've been reading on other hardware-oriented boards, the "hardware scaler" they are talking about isn't the same thing as the xbox 360's dedicated ana or hana chips - it's actually the RSX, using more of it's memory to do the scaling. The RSX is hardware, so technically they can call it a "hardware scaler".

Exactly. It sounds like it can do what any PC video card can do.

Still, I don't care as long as they fix the issue. If they want to call it hardware scaling, hey, fine with me.
post #130 of 280
Hopefully the extra 12% fillrate over 720p that is needed to render into a 960x1080 framebuffer doesn't cause a drop in framerate.
post #131 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetrii View Post

It actually depends. A native 1080P game will look better than the same game upscaled to 1080P from 720P. However, a 720P game with 4x FSAA and other enhancements with the power and memory lost in the 1080P version would probably look better.

But if the game supports both resolutions natively and the 720P version was not enhanced with the extra power available, then yea, the 1080P version would look better.

Well, yeah, that was obvious.
Something inferior rendered at 1080 could look worse than something superior upscaled.

Although, upscaling might defeat the benefit of 4x FSAA, or make the final frame very soft, to the point of blur.
post #132 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jetrii View Post

It actually depends. A native 1080P game will look better than the same game upscaled to 1080P from 720P. However, a 720P game with 4x FSAA and other enhancements with the power and memory lost in the 1080P version would probably look better.

But if the game supports both resolutions natively and the 720P version was not enhanced with the extra power available, then yea, the 1080P version would look better.

i doubt they will give you that option though... it is not pc afterall.
post #133 of 280
I for one would like to thank Darknight for the info. NDAs are serious and should not be messed with. You have been right before. please ignore the pressure and belevie that info you do divulge is appreciated
post #134 of 280
my question does this increase the likelyhood of a upscaling solution for current 720 games, might I finally see RFOM upscaled to 1080 and not play iin 480
Darknight any opinions?
post #135 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by coneyparleg View Post

my question does this increase the likelyhood of a upscaling solution for current 720 games, might I finally see RFOM upscaled to 1080 and not play iin 480
Darknight any opinions?

There is still a lot we don't know about this. However, going from what we do know, it would require a pretty big patch from the developers for every 720P game. Again, this is assuming that it can only scale in one direction.
post #136 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tenkaipalm View Post

Exactly. It sounds like it can do what any PC video card can do.

Still, I don't care as long as they fix the issue. If they want to call it hardware scaling, hey, fine with me.

They can call it "Mary" if they want, as long as it fixes the problem, nobody besides the Micro$oft fanbots will give a rat's @$%.
It was proven that the 360's Ana chip is simply an analog signal processor that stretches the signal in the analog realm. Such a thing would be useless on the PS3 since it has digital output. It's like claiming your record player is superior to Compact Disc because it can play in both 33 and 45 RPM......
post #137 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by walk View Post

They can call it "Mary" if they want, as long as it fixes the problem, nobody besides the Micro$oft fanbots will give a rat's @$%.
It was proven that the 360's Ana chip is simply an analog signal processor that stretches the signal in the analog realm. Such a thing would be useless on the PS3 since it has digital output. It's like claiming your record player is superior to Compact Disc because it can play in both 33 and 45 RPM......

Hey, in many cases analogue IS better than digital. If you're doing scaling it's always better to do it to an analogue signal to avoid pixel errors.

If the PS3's solution works then groovy. No biggy. However, I can't help but think this is going to make 1080i sets give out a crappy picture. Think about it; you're doubling pixels one way, and dropping out half of them the other.
post #138 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by coneyparleg View Post

I for one would like to thank Darknight for the info. NDAs are serious and should not be messed with. You have been right before. please ignore the pressure and belevie that info you do divulge is appreciated

The analysts that have torn down the PS3 aren't under NDA. There is no discrete hardware scaler in the PS3.
post #139 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by murmur001 View Post

Clearly this is not a transparent scaler to developers. I think Xbox360 is a fully transparent(?) to all previous and future games. They make 1280x780 optimized gfx, screen layout and positioning. Then user simply activates upscaler to 1080i/p. Both use the same aspect ratio so relative layout positionings are not a problem.

You're correct on this.

Quote:


From 960x1080 vs. 1280x720 both upscaled to 1920x1080 resolution is a major challenge to develop. It simply cost more money and time. You cannot take X0 720p game and do "simple" port to PS3. Future may not be like it was before, first made PS2 and then did Xbox release. Now it might go other way around for nextgen games and PS3 requires so much more work.

But you're not correct on this. It shouldn't take that much more time and effort if done right and even then it should be fine. From my experience, even with games that are cross platform between the 360 and PS3, it will be minor changes at best and minimal effort to have it done. Remember, even though 720p and 1080i/p are the same aspect ratio, 480i/p is not unless it's anamorphic. Even then developers have to keep that in mind when developing their code. They don't typically have a set of assets for 480 and then a set of assets for high def either. It's the same stuff and it is being scaled proportionally and displayed right. So simply taking the new res into consideration is trivial when they already have to worry about 480. Now supporting multiple resolutions to begin with, that was a pain to deal with when you were used to only dealing with one set resolution.

Quote:


edit1:
One explanation to provide horz-only "half scaler" in SDK is they give two-pass scaler rendering.
* pass 1: game renders background and scenegraph graphics, without overlay HUDs and texts. 960x1080 -> 1920x1080
* pass 2: game renders overlay HUDs and texts with pixel-perfect results to 1920x1080 buffer
-> buffer is drawn on screen

Not the case here.

Quote:


edit2:
vdo from www.ps3forums.com quote:
"the choices of resolutions that a developer can use have been increased to be 960x1080, 1280x1080, 1440x1080 and 1600x1080......So this means that at the very least Sony could begin requiring that all 1280x720 games also support somethingX1080.

Possible, but hasn't happened yet.

Quote:


But the main point is that by forcing the dev to not just develop for 1280x720, but to also force them to develop for somethingX1080 resolution, that will produce games that look great on 720p TVs and also look better on 1080p TVs than if devs only developed for 1280x720p and had PS3 scale that (both horizontally and vertically) to 1080p."

As I said before, it's trivial since it's already being done with 480.
post #140 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Walshicus View Post

Regardless of Dark Knight's supposed insider knowledge - I'd argue the simplest explanation for the whole fiasco is that there ISN'T a hardware scalar in the vein of the 360's ANA present in the PS3, and that this late addition is the result of Sony Jerry-rigging a system together out of existing resources. Doing a horizontal stretch is an interesting way around the issue, and frankly we'll have to wait and see if the end result is noticably worse or similar to the 360's scaling performance.

As it stands I can't think of a single reason why Sony would purposefully delay developer access to a functioning scalar if it was already present and working. Can you?

It's funny how I mentioned before the PS3 launched that there was no guarentee that games would be scaled. In fact, it was up to the developer what resolution the game would output regardless of what the dashboard was set to. Nobody believed me then and insisted they would scale like the 360. Then everyone shouted there's no hardware scaler, and I insisted there was. Now look what has come out. I don't know how much more obvious it can be that I do know what I'm talking about.

There is a much more logical reasoning as to what is going on here, which unfortunately that I cannot dilvulge since I will not release direct info that is found on the development site, but nobody seems to have hit it yet. Maybe it's too obvious but there is a logical reasoning behind all this. Maybe it's obvious to me since I know why, but I'm surprised nobody has pointed it out.
post #141 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeLV View Post

The analysts that have torn down the PS3 aren't under NDA. There is no discrete hardware scaler in the PS3.

Yeah the picture with the scaler is obviously fake
post #142 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknight View Post

It's funny how I mentioned before the PS3 launched that there was no guarentee that games would be scaled. In fact, it was up to the developer what resolution the game would output regardless of what the dashboard was set to. Nobody believed me then and insisted they would scale like the 360. Then everyone shouted there's no hardware scaler, and I insisted there was. Now look what has come out. I don't know how much more obvious it can be that I do know what I'm talking about.

There is a much more logical reasoning as to what is going on here, which unfortunately that I cannot dilvulge since I will not release direct info that is found on the development site, but nobody seems to have hit it yet. Maybe it's too obvious but there is a logical reasoning behind all this. Maybe it's obvious to me since I know why, but I'm surprised nobody has pointed it out.

Even if someone does get lucky and guesses it, I don't think you are allowed to confirm it. Well, you have corrected other guesses before...I suppose we could take your silence as confirmation...
post #143 of 280
So, the PS3 will scale 960x1080, 1280x1080, 1440x1080, 1600x1080 to 1920x1080?

Technically, it seems like this should make their scaler *alot* simpler since the scaling done by the PS3 is in the horiontal direction only. Is it so simple that it is done via firmware only? Wouldn't surprise me that much. Cooler is if scaling could be done as a consequence of another operation. What if pixel shaders could also scale in horizonal as a part of shading? Seems like it should give a smoother final image.

Marketing-wise this allows them to report that "all games support 1080p natively".
Of course, this is a marketing slight of hand because 1080 in this case specifies only the resolution of the vertical dimension.

Visually, however, it doesn't seem like it will be as good as rendering in the 16x9 aspect.

I'm a plasma owner whose display is closer to 720p than 1080i. I often feed the set a 720p signal. Given the PS3 scaling scheme, this may not be the best thing. When scaling 960x1080, aside from horizontally stretching to fill 1280, the pixels in the vertical dimension will be stripped off to squeeze into 720. So, the image shown on my TV will be based on 960x720 from the render. Thats a substantial loss of the original resolution (ie. only 75% of the original render makes it to the screen phospors when 100% would be if it had been rendered by the PS3 in 16x9 aspect 1280x720.)

Unless I've misunderstood something about the PS3 hardware (quite likely!) it seems that even if you have a 720P native TV you're a wee bit better off sending it a 1080p/i signal from the PS3. This way, more of the original render information will make it to your phosphors since most 720 oriented sets are actually 1366x768. The TV internal scalar will take advantage of the extra pixels - so the image you see would be based on 960x768 from the original render - 80% of the original render.

But its still not 100% as would be the case if the PS3 rendered in 16x9 aspect 1280x720.
post #144 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveCircuitCity View Post

Yeah the picture with the scaler is obviously fake

I haven't seen any picture, can you please link it along with any additional info. I've heard from far too many people that no one has found a scaling chip inside (and I'd guess MSFT didn't either) so if there is such a diagram or picture I'd like to see it.
post #145 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Daekwan View Post

can you post a source.. or do you always make things up?

Let's not be fulish now... Bliar from M$ and Other in house developers assumed that it was the case. However, I am glad that SONY Has corrected them
post #146 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknight View Post


There is a much more logical reasoning as to what is going on here, which unfortunately that I cannot dilvulge since I will not release direct info that is found on the development site, but nobody seems to have hit it yet. Maybe it's too obvious but there is a logical reasoning behind all this. Maybe it's obvious to me since I know why, but I'm surprised nobody has pointed it out.

To be perfectly honest, I'm having a really hard time seeing any logic. Stuff like basic resolutions should be taken care of pre-launch. While there might be some underlying sense in some form this whole situation is retarded (hence my search for any underlying logic as I own a 1080i display). So until the 'ah ha, this was the devine plan' moment comes out this will be patching a snafu in my mind which, let's face it, is exactly what it looks like to any outside observer (and if Sony does have a master plan, they certainly are extremely poor on the marketing and communication side).
post #147 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by mmukalian View Post

Another thought (again, my opinion, not factual) is that the usage of a scaler to scale an image from its native resolution to another is not considered "True HD", given that it had to be scaled to that. Combine this with the fact that Sony's been trying to push the whole "True HD" thing, it does kinda make sense to have them not include access to the scaler to force developers to write games for native resolutions.

Again, an opinion.

The X360 does the same thing? Questions is, do you think M$ is really putting 1080p or 720p games out there? HUh? Can't doubt SONY is all I am saying, however it seems that when Something good comes out in the SONY Camp, again M$ peeps trying to prove something else...
post #148 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChrisFB View Post

I haven't seen any picture, can you please link it along with any additional info. I've heard from far too many people that no one has found a scaling chip inside (and I'd guess MSFT didn't either) so if there is such a diagram or picture I'd like to see it.

post #149 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknight View Post


There is a much more logical reasoning as to what is going on here, which unfortunately that I cannot dilvulge since I will not release direct info that is found on the development site, but nobody seems to have hit it yet. Maybe it's too obvious but there is a logical reasoning behind all this. Maybe it's obvious to me since I know why, but I'm surprised nobody has pointed it out.

So let me guess. As you mentioned

Quote:


Remember, even though 720p and 1080i/p are the same aspect ratio, 480i/p is not unless it's anamorphic. Even then developers have to keep that in mind when developing their code. They don't typically have a set of assets for 480 and then a set of assets for high def either. It's the same stuff and it is being scaled proportionally and displayed right

It made the resolution 960x1080 so that developers don't have to care about downscaling to 480i/p since it is half the resolution of the vertical resolution.
It eases the process for the developers. They'll jump in joy.

Am I correct?

Thanks
post #150 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by IloveCircuitCity View Post



1. That right there is the PS1 CHIP the RISC3000

2. THE XDR @ 3.2GHZ > I also see the NEC BANKS under the RSX and CELL BE

3. Hmm? It is on the RSX bus, can it be the scaler?

4. I dont know! - Same as 3?
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