"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 478

Hi John,

Thanks for your efforts.

Hopefully Chris will confirm my understanding, but I doubt we can make any informed inferences regarding whether an Audyssey overall level adjustment could be a contributing factor without seeing the entire frequency spectrum.

Based on the graphs you have provided that only go up to 4 kHz, if there were no other cuts in frequency response above 4 kHz, we would conclude that the overall level adjustment would have to be negative since most of the filters shown are positive. A negative overall level adjustment would of course mitigate stress on the subwoofer by effectively turning down the volume.

Larry

Do the Audessey features work even if the receiver is not in the same room?

Yes, since it is the mic being in the room that allows the calibration to take place.

Hi Jeff,

I believe that John's fundamental problem stems from the fact that Audyssey for some reason is being fooled into setting filters below an accurately measured -3 dB roll-off point. In other words, the bass at reference level is already boosted too high even before Dynamic EQ comes into play.

The fact that Dynamic EQ boosts bass progressively both as the frequency decreases and as the master volume continues to be lowered below reference no doubt doesn't help the situation, but it is not the source of the problem that needs to be accommodated.

It is true that in the vast majority of cases folks don't have the prerequisite system and room to comfortably listen at reference level. However, that is precisely why Dynamic EQ was developed.

As I understand it enhancements to Dynamic EQ will focus on the fact that music and TV soundtracks were not mixed to a standard and therefore user adjustments to Dynamic EQ could be useful to deal with these instances. Such a user adjustment could of course also be used to address differences in personal preferences irrespective of the mixing standards used.

Larry

Larry, I just have to chime in and congratulate you on providing some of the most cogent and comprehensive posts in this thread.

Thanks,

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks very much.

I appreciate the remark especially in view of your notable contributions in this and other web sites.

Regards,

Larry

Hi Larry,

The level adjustment is separate from the filter boosts and cuts. When the filters are calculated they are "normalized" so that the maximum boost that is needed in each one does not exceed the maximum boost available in the system. That optimizes the signal to noise ratio in the signal flow. The level calculation (for the trim settings) is done after that and it does, as you mention, depend on a large part of the spectrum.

Larry,

You are right; I should have done full spectrum sweeps. The reason I did not go past 4khz is that my mic has a huge rise in response centered around 5khz, making the overall response look pretty ragged. It is an artifact of the mic, and I mainly use the mic for subwoofer cal anyway, so it's not a big deal for me. If you want, I'll do full spectrum sweeps, to see if there are cuts higher up (I suspect that, as I am using the 'Audyssey' curve, and it rolls off the highs...) OK, I just convinced myself to run the full sweeps. They'll be up later today. Thanks for taking the time to help.

Chris,

Thanks so much for listening to my (now solved) problem, overall I am very pleased with the Audyssey software, I think it has been a great addition to my HT.

JSS

Hi Gentlemen,

As I related in previous posts, I've had great success with my Audyssey setup on my 3808. The system sounds fantastic. All the talk over the last few days about frequency cuts and boosts got me interested in whats happening in my room.

My room is fairly well treated with bass traps and higher frequency absorbers. It's still fairly live though. I didn't go overboard if you get my drift. I don't know how much credibility we can put in these Denon graphs, but they do seem to carry a lot of detail.

My question is this...

As you can see there is a significant cut around the 100Hz range in the L & R channels. This is repeated in the center and surround channels as well. Is this representative of the 80Hz crossover I have set on all channels and if so what is the info for everything lower than 80Hz.?

Brock

I have a question regarding the crossover frequency set by Audyssey on my system. I had to recalibrate the system (was totally happy with the Audyssey before) because I moved furniture around and moved the speakers, got a new TV, etc... I am sitting about three Metres away from the front, and 1 meter in front of the surrounds.

I am just totally unhappy with the calibration and have done it five times in the last two days, pretty much all with the same result, give or take very small changes. I turn off all extraneous noise, the mic is on a tripod at listening-ear height, and I am not in the room when I do the calibration, the windows are shut, blinds closed, no computers, etc...

I have mini satellites and a sub. Here are the frequency ranges for them:

Satellites: 120...25.000 Hz
Center: 120...25.000 Hz
Surround: 120...25.000 Hz
Subwoofer: 38...140 Hz

Crossover FrequenciesI guess the numbers are not good?)

Satellites: 5.000 Hz
Center: 5.000 Hz
Surround: 5.000 Hz
Subwoofer: 80...140 Hz (adjustable)


Audyssey is setting the crossover frequencies so:
Surrounds---120
Center---150
Fronts---200 oO ??????

Why is it setting the crossover on these so high? Are the frequencies between 200-140 just lost then?

Also, it is setting the minis at -6 db in front, the center at -5 the sub at -6 (that's ok for me) and the surrounds at -8, and -9db, respectively. I have to turn it up way louder than I did before and it just sounds blah. Besides, at three meters from minis, should they not be in the +db range? I have to manually pump the center channel up to +1 just to get rich dialogue, and then the fronts are drowned out.

Do these numbers look normal? Because the system just doesn't sound right, rich, or even decent since I moved the crap around...I don't know what the settings were before I moved around, because I didn't have the menu up on the TV (just got the TV recently), but even the mini crap speakers sounded awesome before.
Receiver is Denon 2309. Unfortunately, getting new speakers is out of the question right now, and besides, they sounded great before I re-calibrated them.

Thanks for any help on this matter!

McStyvie

McStyvie,
Here's some questions that may help us narrow it down:
Describe: "it sounds blah" much more precisely-highs, lows, sources.
Describe the former & current position of the sats and sub in the room, in relation to walls, corners, height, etc and to your #1 spot.
Is center ch back on a shelf?
Are all front sat tweeters pointed at you?
What model sats and sub?
You did follow the Guide as to sub settings prior to setup, mic positions and have all sats set to SMALL?

All of these settings can affect the SQ:
Are/were you listening with DynVol and @ what setting? (This will greatly affect the Vol control setting.)
Are/were you listening with DynEQ?
Are/were you listening with "Restore"?
Are/were you using the Audyssey Flat curve?


FYI small sats will have high xovers because they cannot handle the lower bass freqs, which are not "lost" but are redirected to the sub. None of those readings are patently bothersome. If the surrounds are closer to a corner or against a wall their bass may be more reinforced, resulting in a slightly lower xover.

Hi Brock,

Actually it looks like the corrections are centered closer to 80 Hz rather than 100 Hz.

Does your room have one or more room dimensions that are multiples of 7 feet? If so, that would account for a peak at 80 Hz for all your speakers.

Larry

Hi McStyvie,

As SoundofMind correctly points out it is not unusual for small speakers not to be able to handle lower bass frequencies and therefore have a measured -3 dB roll-off point that is quite high.

In the case of your main speakers if your subwoofer truly has an upper usable response to only 140 Hz and the fronts are crossed over at 200 Hz, then yes, there will be significant attenuation for signals in the 140 - 200 Hz range.

This is unavoidable with the speaker subwoofer combination you currently have at the current speaker locations. As SoundofMind suggests placing the speakers closer to the walls may help a little, but Audyssey won't be able to help provide any additional bass extension.

Larry

I am not certain on how Denon graphs the filters, but it's pretty clear that what you are seeing is the crossover at 80 Hz. There shouldn't be any data showing below it, but this could just be an artifact in the graph.

The frequencies below the crossover are not lost. They are sent to the subwoofer.


The levels are set to achieve reference listening levels (at which the movie was mixed) when you have the volume control set to 0. So, the closer you sit the lower the trims will be.

Do you have Dynamic EQ on along with MultEQ? You should definitely have it on. You may also have Dynamic Volume on a very heavy setting. Dynamic Volume is intended for late night viewing and you should start by turning it off.

Ran a few tests tonight(these will not be identical to my previous since I have re-run Audyssey auto setup since)
These are taken with REW and Tascam US-144 using only the line level outputs from the Denon 3808. All measurements are taken at 0.0db master volume and identical level trims, so the difference shown is simply turning Audyssey off and on(no Dyn EQ/Vol or night modes etc)


Subwoofer output with Audyssey OFF calibrated as reference
Blue=Audyssey off
Green Audyssey on


Subwoofer output with test gear calibrated as reference
Purple= Audyssey off
Blue= Audyssey on


Left output with test gear calibrated as reference
Red= Audyssey off
Green= Audyssey on


Right output with test gear calibrated as reference
Purple= Audyssey off
Blue= Audyssey on

cheers

Is there any advantage or disadvantage with a 5.0 system (no dedicated subwoofer)? I was just curious if the correction for low frequencies (LFE) is better or worse when they are being reproduced by the mains.

HI Sound of Mind, thanks for the helpful post! Here the answers to your questions as best I can:

Blah = the highs seem lacking surprisingly, and the mids to lows seem more unclear than before. The whole system is too quiet, the center channel lacks oompf, and the surrounds are almost non-existent. This is changeable manually with the Denon 2309, but shouldn't be so necessary I think?

Former= sats and center were on a parallel line, Fronts about 50 CM to either side of the screen, Center channel directly in front, at two feet height, angled up toward the ears, we sat about 2.5M from them. Surrounds were off to the sides of our listening positions, each one M from our L and R ears respectively.

Current= Front and Center basically the same, the surrounds are now behind us by about two feet however, sitting distance is the same as ist distance from Front and center Sats...just the whole room is flipped around, the window, however stays on the side (before left side, now right)

Sats, and surrounds are pointed straight forward, the left almost directly at seat 1 and the R almost directly at seat 2.

the set is Canton 120 MX.
the sats are all set to small.
I have messed with the Dyn EQ and Audyssey EQ (flat, audyssey, etc.) and the Dyn Vol on and off. It just didn't sound correct as before, but I am going to run it again.
I followed the guide while setting it up, and even re-ran the calibration with different sub settings to find the best mix.


Audyssey, if the sub only goes to 140 max, are they truly not lost?

So, is it advisable to change the Xover on my FR and FL speaker to 140 or 150 like the center since my sub only goes to 140 max? It states in the set-up guide that one should not set the xover settings lower than audyssey set them, but if they are just getting lost then It would seem to make more sense.



Once again, thanks a bunch for taking time to respond!

McStyvie

I'm getting "speaker not detected" on my main speakers which is preventing my Audyssey calibration process from completing. I have a Paradigm Reference Studio 100 v.5 system that is brand new. So I don't think I have any drivers blown as I haven't played anything on them yet.

During the Audyssey auto-calibration test tone process, I'm noticing that the chirps emitted from my front mains sound a couple of octaves lower from the rest of my speakers. Also, the characteristic high pitch "clap" sound at the end of the chirp is not apparent through my mains as opposed to the rest of the speakers. I've swapped out my fronts for some cheap bookshelves as a test (I heard the characteristic "chirp" then "clap" immediately), and this allowed the Audyssey calibration to complete. This is quite strange . It seems like my tweeters are not functioning properly for Audyssey to detect my mains .

Here is further info on my setup:

i - I have a 5.1 setup so my surround speakers are connected as L/R surround (NOT rear or back surrounds, which are for 7.1 setup) and they are on the sides of my listening area.
ii - My mains are set to "Full Band"
iii - There is no bi-amping

Here is what I've already tried:

1 - Checking the connections--I've even reversed the wiring as a test, but get the same results (negative)
2 - Using different speakers as already mentioned (positive)
3 - Using a different speaker wire (negative)
4 - Taking the grills off my speakers (negative)
5 - Since my mains have 2 pairs of connectors for "bi-amping", I've tried connecting my banana plugs in turn to each pair (negative)

I'm using an Integra DHC-9.9 pre-amp. What else can I try to resolve my issue ?

How do your new speakers sound with regular content? What you describe sounds like maybe a tweeter is out on the first (new) speaker that Audyssey chirps. If you are not able to hear anything wrong from your main listening position, play some music and walk from speaker to speaker putting your ear at each tweeter to make sure that they are both tweeting.

Have you confirmed that the jumpers are in place for the two sets of binding posts on each speaker?

Does anyone have an opinion on using Audyssey when playing games as opposed to movies? I only ask because I stuck Killzone 2 into my PS3 earlier today and the front soundstage was completely dead. It was so bad that when I had two characters in front of me holding a conversation I just heard a low mumble with some over-the-top reverb applied when they were standing in front of me and coming from the front speakers, but if I turned around so that they're conversation was coming from the rear speakers they were loud and clear as day. It's like the dialog was selectively being filtered out of the front soundstage, all of the ambient noise of the enivronment I could hear out of the front.

Turning off MultiEQ completely helped just a tad, but maybe it's just an issue with this particular game's sound mixing? Obviously, a game will have more "random" mixing issues than a movie mix I suppose, so I wonder if anyone has any preference for what they use when playing a game versus watching a movie. I'm running through a Denon AVR-789, btw.

Ran Audyssey for the first time yesterday morning and really like how it adjusted my stuff, but I am having to work to tame the bass though, not so much that it's overpowering - for all I know it's as everything is intended - but just that bass at those levels (even at lower volumes) isn't really compatible with apartment living!

bob_av, I'm confirming that both sets of jumpers are there and tightly fastened.

pepar, I've listened to music and even did a frequency sweep from 15Hz to 22kHz with my DVE Blu-Ray disc and I believe I heard my speakers tweet.

Potentially results will be worse without a sub.

The first problem is the low frequency extension of the speakers. Do they go as low as a sub would go? Audyssey will only provide correction down to the in-room measured -3 dB point for your speakers and that point will vary a lot depending on speaker placement. It may be higher or lower than the speaker's specified -3 dB point which is usually measured under anechoic conditions.

The second issue is that Audyssey provides twice the resolution in its correction of the sub channel than it does for bass in the speaker channels. That means that over the range of frequencies that you would normally expect a sub to cover, you will get much better correction for a sub than you will for the same range in the speaker channels.

If your low frequency room response is very good, which will probably mean that you've got reasonable acoustic treatment in the room, and your speakers have the necessary bass extension and are placed well and delivering good, deep, even bass response in your room, you may get very good results with a 5.0 system. If there are low frequency problems in your room and/or your speakers aren't capable of delivering the bass performance and extension required given their capabilities and placement in your room, you'll almost certainly get better results with a sub in the system.

Finally, the bass frequencies make the biggest demands on the amplifiers in your receiver. Using a sub allows you to hand off a lot of that demand to the amp in the sub which is designed to handle that load. That makes the job of the amps in the receiver much easier and they often perform better as a result and deliver better quality sound to the speakers regardless of how well the speakers can handle those bass frequencies being passed to the sub.

You must have somehow managed to get that system calibrated just right to perform to its max potential before and you will have to keep working at it now since you rearranged your HT room.
If the settings and modes you used have not changed, then it is likely that the explanation lies in some combination of the new satellite and sub positions and setup mic positions. As Chris suggested, DynEQ should be ON, DynVol OFF=red light when you listen (no AVR settings affect autosetup)

1. If I understand correctly, you are not as close to the fronts and the surrounds are now behind you. I think that explains a lot. The speakers have also likely changed in their respective positions to walls and corners. The sub is in a new position as well. This is affecting what you are hearing and of course affects the calibration. First thing, you could try the "sub crawl" to optimize the sub position while listening to bass-heavy material. http://www.axiomaudio.com/subwoofercrawl.html

2. I reviewed a Canton Manual online that seemed like it applies to your system. The sub should be connected using the low level RCA input "Right/mono", the crossover on the sub should be set to max (if it cannot be defeated and it doesn't look like it can) and the "amplifier switch" should be "ON" (after autosetup it can be switched to "Auto" mode).

3. Experiment with mic position patterns. I suggest you keep it quite tight (within 2') around pos #1, well within the tweeter dispersion cone of sound, the stereo center "sweet spot".

4. Experiment with satellite positions-try the fronts closer to the wall if you can, to boost their lows.

5. Experiment with the sat crossovers to see how it affects the SQ if you break the rules and lower the front crossovers, but do it 10Hz at a time and listen to some music with good bass. Keep in mind not only do you lose the extra filters which are applied to all freqs sent to the sub channel, but you lose the Audyssey filters on those freqs below the -3dB point in the sat. I would be surprised if indeed it actually sounds better, but try it, it won't hurt anything.

6. If none of that works, put the room back the way it was!

Oh, here is a brief product review of your speaker system which mentions that the sub is not robust and, of course, recommending upgrading to the better Canton 150QX system :
http://reviews.cnet.com/surround-spe...-32897517.html

Hi guys and gals. Well this is my 1st AVR its Onkyo TX-SR706 well i ran Audyssey and would like some input on tweeking my results. All speakers are Polks. Here are my results.

Fronts Monitor 70 "Full Band"
Center CS2 "Full Band"
Surrounds Monitor 40 "40 Hz" Surr Back TSi 100 "50 Hz"
LPF of LFE "120 Hz"
Double Bass "ON"

I know from reading some of the fourm that the "Full Band" was selected by Onkyo and not Audyssey. And its recomended to select a crossover frequency. So thats were I could use your help. Here are some of the Specs,
@ -3dB,
Fronts 40Hz... Center 60Hz... Surrounds 57Hz... Sur Back 63Hz

thanks for your advice

Do the ear-at-each-tweeter thingy to make sure.

Successfully completing Audyssey setup with some cheap bookshelf speakers sort of points to the new speaker.

Hi Larry,

Yes, my room is close to that. It's 13' 6" x 11' and set up with the system on the long wall. It was the only feasible way to set up. I wish I had a larger room and I could set up length ways. I do get good sound staging and the bass is pretty tight now, but that took a lot of work and $$$.

I tried my subs in every conceivable location. The best punchy, tight bass I could get was one on each side of my TV with the mains beside them. They are phased in sync. See attached pic.

Running this room configuration with my 3805 and one sub caused me no end of grief with serious bass nodes. All the bass was in the seat right next to the center listening/viewing position.

Adding bass traps and the second sub, plus a new 3808 with Audyssey, cured the bass nodes. I now have great bass in the listening position while I had hardly any before.

Any other suggestions with this shape of room would be much appreciated. I've never been able to find much online info on long wall setups.

Thanks
Brock

Hi max, welcome. I would suggest this, pretty much right out of the Audyssey setup guide: set all speakers to small, set all xovers to 60 Hz (except surrbacks=70), turn double bass off. Listen to bass laden passages. Then try all xovers at 70, and then 80, listening to same passages each time, attending to the fullness, punch and localization of the bass. Pick your favorite. It should sound fabulous.