"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 489

"I am NOT going to set my crossover to 80 or set the fronts to small so I would prefer not wasting time discussing that as an option."

AFAIK you are incorrect. XT doesn't go "lower", it just has higher resolution filters with which it can EQ the full range of your satellite speakers. so it may deliver better results in the bass region of your OMD-28's but it's not because it goes lower.

both versions of MultEQ will stop correcting your speakers below the measured -3dB point.

Movie directors generally don't want you to turn around in the theater, and - in doing so - to take your eyes off the screen... So, generally minimal distraction in the rear and back surrounds.

If authoring movies in 7.1 Wide speaker configuration becomes common, I have to believe we'll see action movies using 'full volume' pans Lw-L-C-R-Rw, in the way they already do L-C-R. [You might also see this to a lesser extent if your receiver remapped (say) a car crash pan from Ls-L-C-R in a 7.1 Standard speaker configuration movie into Ls-Lw-L-C-R.]

And, of course, you'll want to do justice to the vertical pan in a [7.1 discrete Front Height] front-and-center shuttle launch!

I'm sure this question has been asked before, but here goes...

I have a JL Labs subwoofer which has its own calibration software and microphone that you can use to optimally tweak the sub for your room.

I have a Denon AVR5308.

I have a medium sized room, with the sub in the corner. I usually need to tame the LFE output on the JL, even after calibration due to the corner location and modest room size.

For best results, would you recommend running the JL calibration mentioned above before or after I run the Audyssey calibration?

Actually, many recommend that any onboard EQ be off and completely out of the circuit. However, some think it can help if you have a problem room. If you do decide to use it, run the sub's EQ first before setting up Audyssey.

I'll give this a try.

I've done the sub EQ before & after audyssey. So far, I liked the result of doing it after Audyssey, not sure why. Perhaps it's doubling up on the EQ this way. Strange.

I'll try it w/o sub EQ and see if that yeilds even better results.

If you do it after Audyssey, there is likely an additional delay introduced that Audyssey has not accounted for in the distance settings. Just a thought. If you are familiar with Room EQ Wizard, have a PC and a calibrated mic, you could run Audyssey and check the results to determine whether additional correction is needed.

Noah,

The wides and heights are playing continuously. They are not just there for effects.

Thanks for looking into this issue. I hope you can somehow reproduce it because I've had the same problem since I bought my Denon AVR. I had written it off as needing a bigger sub (which I probably do anyways), but I'm not pushing my sub very hard. I have issues on scenes with hot LFE in the low frequencies. I'm using the Denon 1909 & the Outlaw Audio LFM-1c sub. If subs that are much more capable are having issues as well I'm going to hold off on the sub upgrade to see if this is figured out. I really enjoy the sound with Audyssey other than this issue.

Thanks for responding batpig. I'm understanding you to say that both XT and MultiEQ operate down to the -3DB cutoff point of my speakers. The advantage that XT has is due to increased resolution down to that point. So, if I have a peak then XT woukld stand a better chance of taming it since it devides the spectrum into smaller "slices". MultEQ otoh may not even "sense" it because of the courseness with which it divides up the spectrum.

If that is correct, then is it safe to assume that it is not certain that XT would get me better results but that there is a higher likelihood that it would ?

Sounds like it may be a crap shoot and that I could end up trading off really good performance at the low end of my mains for the advantage of Dynamic Volume.

I just finished Audyssey EQ w/o JL Audio mic EQ before or after.

Sounds good although I may have the bass level set a little too high.

The sub is set to reference so the volume is set by my Denon. The lowest the Denon will go is -12 db.

After the Audyssey calibration the sub volume was set at -12 db.

Should I change the setting on my sub to manual and manually turn down the volume a little and see how I like it?

Or should I re-do the calibration with the sub set to manual (slightly turned down) from the beginning?

Yes, the procedure is in the guide linked in mine and a few other sigs. After one mic position test, one is supposed to check the AVR's sub trim. If it is at min cut, then the sub's volume control should be reduced and the single position test re-run. You need to get the trim off of the bottom of it's range. As it can only go to -12, it really might need to be lower, but it can't.

The starting volume control position is recommended at the mid-point; how does that compare to your present sub volume control position?

Intesting FAQ, thanks. I think the present default volume setting on my sub is in the middle position. I think I'll start there and lower as needed. I'll give that a try in the morning and post the results.

Hi Chris,

I have what I believe it a new one for you. I helped my son-in-law install a Denon 4308ci AVR with Martin Logan Voyages on L&R main (very nice) and a ML Passage for the center channel. The main L/R channels are routed via line level outputs from the Denon AVR to a 2-channel preamp and then to a 3-channel amp and the center is routed via line level output from the Denon directly to the same amp (no preamp in the loop). The Denon's power section is only driving the rear surrounds.

When we ran Audyssey for the first time the other night, the right front speaker made a rapid and consistent 'ticking' noise during the front left speaker 'boip' tones and also during the right front speaker 'boip' tones. It did not do this during the test of the center and rears. This 'ticking' sound only came through the right front channel during the test of the left and the right fronts and seemed to be in rhythm with the 'boip' tones.

The funny thing is that this ticking did not seem to bother the Audyssey program at all (I expected to get the 'Too much ambient noise" message but did not). The settings for distance, crossover, output level, etc were exactly what you would expect without this ticking issue.

We went through all of the troubleshooting steps (playing test tones and white noise through each speaker, listening to music, switching between different sources on the Denon, etc) and everything worked fine. The 'ticking' only occurs when running the Audyssey setup program.

Any ideas on what is going on here?

Thanks so much.

Dave

Hi Dave,

The first thing I would recommend is to simplify the system. That will help debug this, but it may also improve the sound quality. In particular, I am referring to the extra 2-channel preamp in the path after the Denon. I would try removing it from the path as a first debugging step. There may be a crosstalk issue with it or some other cause. I always get concerned when there are multiple volume controls in the path.

Chris - we will try that for troubleshooting purposes, but he also uses the system for hi-end 2-channel listening directly from a CDP and the Denon doesn't cut it for that. Funny that it works perfectly on music, BD movies, HD radio, etc but acts up when running Audyssey...

Thank you so much for your quick and helpful response Chris. I will let you know what happens when we eliminate the preamp.

Best,
Dave

Chris,

"The wides and heights are playing continuously. They are not just there for effects."

Good to know, but that wasn't my question, which was, how often will the heights receive the full brunt of explosive effects?

I can see how the wides would be dished up everything the L/C/R's get, but it seems unlikely that gunfire etc. would be fed full strength to the heights.

Dave, the Audyssey test tones are a much wider range and higher short-term intensity than most music, so that's why you probably don't hear the ticking.

I'm with Chris on that for debugging, remove the 2 ch-preamp.

Some of these 'high-end' pre's and amps are not really all that great, and have horrendous distortion and crosstalk and all kinds of problems, especially tube-type devices. Tubes go bad and people still run these things ...

As for high-quality CD (and all other non-BR) 5" media, I'd recommend getting a Denon DVD-2930 and using DenonLink3 to hook it up to the 4308. That's a jitter-free feed of multichannel audio for CD, DVD, DVD-Audio, and SACD.

This would allow critical 2ch listening to also benefit from Audyssey corrections.
I promise you, there is a greater benefit from Audyssey room correction alone than any high-bling preamp and CDP could ever, ever provide.

And possibly just as important, how do you mount a duplicate pair of 30kg+ floorstanders at a 45 degree height in the room ? ;-)

Oh, I see. You're right, the heights will not receive the full brunt of such effect.

Dave,

Does the preamp have a dedicated HT Bypass feature? I have had several 2 CH preamps in my system with a Onkyo 805 and now a 885 with no issues at all when running Audyssey. But all the preamps that being a Proceed Pre, PS Audio PCA-2, Rogue Audio Perseus (tube), Bel Canto PRe3, Parasound 2100 and now a TADAC (tube) have had a dedicated HT Bypass.

You could try running Audyssey with the preamp out of the system then place it back in the system when you are done running Audyssey. If the preamp has HT Bypass it should be passing the R&L preouts from the Denon untouched to the amp.

Bill

I when back and followed your recommendation to change the volume on the sub so I don't end up in the -12 output after Audyssey. It worked out very well. I had to lower my JL sub a whole 1/4 turn off 0, to give me a -3db output result after Audyssey.

I'm happier with the result. Bass is tighter and with less overhang. Since I use the THX Ultra 2 decoding with my 7.1 setup, I changed the Audyssey setting to Flat. Audyssey had my LR & C channels as Large. I changed to small with 80 hz crossover on all three channels (I think this is recommended by most). I also raised the center channel volume 2db, since I seemed a little too low (could be my hearing loss)

After going through the Denon manual I noticed they have a "Transducer Setup" mode available that allows you to reduce the transducer level. Is this the subwoofer level? Is it still better to adjust the volume on the sub or is it better to do it at the receiver. Perhaps it doesn't matter either way?

I believe "transducer" = Buttkicker (etc) type of chair transducer.
(correct me if I'm wrong)

Mike

Thanks Bill. He (my son-in-law) is using a Proceed AVP preamp that I had in storage from years back. Although it is obsolete for 5.1 (only Dolby Digital and DTS and S-video outputs), it has very good sound quality for 2-channel listening. I do not think it has HT bypass, but you have a good thought.

I also use a 885 in my HT system with the L/R mains running through my Ayre K-1xe preamp and then to my Krell amp. It does not have a HT bypass either, but Ayre specifies the volume control position that is unity gain, so it is easy to get the same effect as HT bypass. It works beautifully for HT and allows me to bypass the 885 when using my Ayre CX-7e CDP and VPI TNT as sources for critical 2-channel listening.

If I knew the unity gain position for the Proceed AVP, I could follow your recommendation to bypass the preamp for setting Audyssey and then re-insert the preamp and set it at unity gain and it should maintain the same L/R volume.

It is yet to be seen whether it is the preamp causing the ticking problem. If it turns out to be the preamp, then I bet I could take the preamp out as you recommend, run Audyssey, then use white noise to record the L/R sound levels with my RatShack decibel meter, re-insert the preamp and find the volume setting that matches the previous decibel level. Whew! That sounds a lot harder than it really is.

I will also try listening to 2-channel as JonFo suggests with the preamp out of the loop to see if the sound quality of the Denon is on par with the AVP. I tried this with my 885 and it didn't come close to my Ayre K-1xe for sound quality. I can emphatically say that the K-1xe IS "really all that great".

Thanks to everyone for your input. I really appreciate it and I will post again to let you know how all this comes out.

Best,
Dave

BTW - Bill, you should add the Ayre K-5xe to your list of recommended preamps with HT bypass.

Chris -

I just read through the new Denon AVR 1910 manual and noticed a new adjustable parameter: Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset, which can be set at four values (0/-5/-10/-15dB).

Is this the long awaited concession to the fact non-movie content is mixed without a reference standard? It sounds like it will be a pretty awesome addition to the new Denon lineup for those of us who have trouble "taming the bass" with poorly mixed TV and music content!

If I am reading this correctly, then kudos to you and a big thanks! That's something I have really been waiting for and will be a very appealing feature for a lot of consumers.

Yes it is. It was something that we were looking at for a while, but took even more seriously after lots of input from members of this forum.

Well then, we'll look for proper accreditation in the literature.

Chris, how does this feature work? Is it essentially equivalent to what we can currently do by reducing the input source level?

This is the description in the AVR 1910 manual:


(Chris, looks like you let Denon translate this to Japanese and then back again to "Denon-ese" ... only Denon could come up with a linguistic gem like "in order to view such contents" when discussing an audio feature )

"...the heights will not receive the full brunt of such effect."

Great, thanks Chris.

Any idea when products w/9.1 will be available?

I guess needing another pair of outputs on the back panel is a lot bigger deal than reassigning back surrounds to heights.

Unless zone 2 outputs can be reassigned.

Any feel for whether the extra processing will generally require a DSP upgrade from 7.1?