"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 566

I wanted to run this by and see your suggestions. My trim levels after Audessey calibration are set as follows:

FL: -3.5
FR: -3.0
C: -4.0
SW: +6.5
SL: -1.0
SR: -1.5

Crossovers for all speakers are set at 90 Hz.

I set the LFE setting for blu-rays to -7db (which has helped reduce bass output). My SW is setup in the right corner of my living room (19.6 ft away), I know that is not an optimal location, but I prefer it to be hidden from my primary viewing area. Right now I am getting reference level bass (which at times is too much) and want to lower it.

My question is, can I lower the SW trim level from +6.5 to say +2.5? If so, will this mess up the MultiEQ calibration settings? I want to lower the bass level without adversely effecting any of the Audyssey MultiEQ setup. My SW volume is set to 30%, so I don't think adjusting that and re-running Audyssey will produce different results, as Audyssey will just offset the trim level of the sub.

av-ra: Thanks much for this post! I will try to do exactly this same set of measurements when my SubMersive and SMS-1 arrive this Monday and Tuesday (at least that's what FedEx says). My plan is

1) First connect AVR directly to sub and adjust sub output to match speaker level (~75 dB , with SPL meter).

2) Connect SMS-1 in its 'pass through' mode (preset 6), turn off Audyssey in AVR, and move the sub around in the various possible positions, using the SMS-1 to monitor which gives the smoothest spectrum.

3) Run Audyssey, and see how it looks via the SMS-1. Compare to no Audyssey, no PEQ. Add SMS-1 PEQ if necessary and compare (Audyssey, then PEQ).

4) Do SMS-1 PEQ first, then run Audyssey. Compare to 3).

What else?

Yes, you can lower the SW trim level without any adverse effect on the MultEQ filters.

Sounds like a plan - can't wait to see what you come up with!

I'll try that. I think the main this is to use an SPL meter to get some idea of the level differences being experienced.

Ken -- to add to what was already said, another thing that may be happening is you are simply used to the "bright / forward" sound of your speakers/room, and having your speakers EQ'd a little more flat (in fact, with a high freq. roll-off as Chris notes) is quite a change for you.

I would do as Chris suggest and re-run audyssey, paying close attention to microphone height and placement within the axis of the speakers (e.g. not off really far to either side). Then try listening in the "FLAT" mode so you aren't getting any rolled-off highs. Then, give your ears some time to adjust.

Not exactly the same situation, but I have found that when switching between very bright speakers to neutral speakers, the treble can sound "recessed" in direct comparison, but your ears will adjust to the sound as you grow used to it.

Can you give the details about how you have your test tones input with your tests and what settings you are using in your Denon? It almost looks like you are using Direct Mode in your Denon.

I am using the RABOS CD in my CD player connected via a digital audio cable and using the DPLIIx Music mode (which is what I use for listening to music and is my target source/setup for achieving good sub response). I repeatedly checked to make sure that Dynamic EQ was off and that the Audyssey EQ was set to "Audyssey" or "Off" depending on the test. Is there anything else you need to know?

Hi Chris,

I just posted a question about Onkyo's Late Night function over in the Onkyo PR-SC886P Pre/Pro Official thread

In summary, my concern from reading the Onkyo manual is that for TrueHD sources each time the prepro is placed in standby mode it automatically sets the Late Night function to AUTO requiring the user to manual reset to OFF for each and every TrueHD session that the user wants to hear the full dynamic range.

Your remarks quoted above may relieve my concern if it applies to all implementations of Audyssey and is not specific to Denon. As long as Audyssey Dynamic EQ is enabled, should I still be concerned about Dolby's Late Night function being invoked and manually set it to OFF for every session?

Thanks.

Larry

Hi Larry,

My remarks above were specific to Denon. I don't know how this is done in the Onkyo models and will have to check.

Hi Chris,

Thanks.

Regardless of how Onkyo has actually implemented this Late Night feature, do you happen to know, from a theoretical point of view, whether the dynamic compression of Dolby's Late Night feature would likely interfere or overlap with processing associated with Dynamic EQ?

Larry

Hi Chris,

Is there any popular movie scenes or music that you can recommend as good reference material for detailed bass, and what we should be listening for? I stick with Audyssey x-over settings that are higher than what my satellites are capable of for the reason you pointed out. I know this sound's like crazy reference material, but I have used a "rolling bass note" that starts high and goes low from Weird Al Yankovic's "Whatever you like" to evaluate sub/sat integration. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Without looking at my Denon's menus, I can't think of any other than whether you have "LFE" or "LFE+Main" at the Subwoofer Mode (should be: LFE); mains: (should be) Small;

In Parameters there are a bunch of things that should be "OFF", things about images, effects, and room size, and some that I don't know enough about to recommend anything (LFE: the manual says Dolby Digital sources: "0 dB", DTS Movie sources: "0 dB", DTS Music sources: "-10 dB". I've seen here that whether or not your player decodes the LFE could change what your setting should be. )

Restorer should be OFF. Night Mode OFF.

As to whether stereo inputs played through surround modes, such as you do with DPLIIx Music mode is a valid way to measure your system's performance with your RABOS technique, I don't know. Others will comment I'm sure.

I like plain ol' 2.1 for stereo, especially if I'm just playing music while moving around in the house and not sitting at the Listening Postion.

I always just use Stereo Mode for taking REW measurements with stereo source material. I believe Audyssey does a fine job with my surround setup, but my rear/side surrounds are in-ceiling, so I tilt the mic so that the sound is tangential for those particular Audyssey sweeps, thus solving the problem of too much cut in the surrounds. This is not possible with a surround mode where all speakers are playing at the same time. I tried testing with 7 Channel only to discover that this mode does NOT duplicate for individual speakers what they produce in stereo. I did a cursory test of DPLIIx Music mode also, and it was better, but I didn't test enough to say it is the same as Stereo Mode for the mains and sub.

btw ... batpig is the guru on Denon settings. Look for one of his posts and follow the link at his sig. Maybe he'll chime in.

Hi Chris (BTW, my name's actually Matt , to avoid confusion with LarryChanin!),

That's what I thought about DTS too, but just reported what the Denon indicated. I was actually going to take a picture, but it turns out it must be a display bug with my AVR-1909: when toggling from the DD track to the DTS one, it DOES display for a couple secs the same "Dialnorm offset" as the DD had. However, if I cycle through the Status info, it's not there like the DD, so something's just screwy...


No, it's an HDMI connection, sorry I wasn't clear, and multi-channel 5.1 PCM (or 7.1 the PS3 sends for the DTS-ES track). If it was 2 channel, I would have noticed other differences, like a collapse of the front soundstage to the center, etc.


Well I was never comparing the DD and DTS versions, just bitstream vs MPCM for each on their own. (I realize they could sound different, though for the record with these 2 DVDs, I probably couldn't tell a difference.)

I was doing more listening last night, and now I'm thinking I shouldn't have posted here, thinking it was only a difference with Dynamic EQ. But without DEQ and the volume a bit higher, I can also hear a difference in the bass, while the overall levels otherwise seem the same. It's just that using DEQ of course magnifies the differences -- the difference in the lower "impact" bass portion is amazing (not HUGE, but "wow") with bitstream. Not subtle with DEQ, anyone would notice this.

I don't have any Blu-rays except the demo disc that came with the PS3, and I checked out its TrueHD trailers (Dynamic EQ On) for Casino Royale, Harry Potter, Spiderman, and Underworld (just 2.0). Comparing the TrueHD over PCM and the bitstreamed DD "secondary" audio, the latter sounded noticeably more "dull," particularly on Harry Potter and Spiderman. Same I guess for CR, except one blip of bass sounded a bit louder with lossy DD. Underworld's 2.0 sounded pretty much the same either way.

Well at least with that BD, I absolutely didn't feel the DD bitstream sounded more dynamic, like the DVDs, compared to the PS3-decoded lossless. Then I jokingly wonder if the TrueHD should be more dynamic than I heard. Or if the PS3 has an LFE decode problem, maybe those trailers didn't use much/any LFE...

But really, I guess I'll have to go post in a PS3 thread instead. Sorry to clutter this thread or waste your time for what I thought was just a difference with DEQ! Maybe the PS3's BD lossless decoding is correct, but it has an issue with either (a) DVD tracks, or (b) decoding lossy formats. Either would seem strange, but I'd like to figure out this annoying difference!

you should NOT hear a difference between bitstreamed DD and pre-decoded DD (sent as multich PCM) from the PS3. there is almost certainly some setting somewhere (e.g. DRC may be "on" for DD inputs) that is confounding the test.

I've done the test myself on PS3 + Denon setups (playing a DD track from an SD DVD) and they sounded identical.

either way, it's not really an "Audyssey" issue at all....

For music bass, I use "I Can See Clearly Now" on the Holly Cole CD "Don't Smoke In Bed." Most realistic stand-up double bass I have ever heard. There are several other cuts on the CD of equal quality.

For BD, I like "Master and Commander: The Far Side Of The World." The cannon shots will knock you over.

Larry,

With my Onkyo TX-SR706 playing a Dolby True HD BD and Dynamic EQ enabled, Late Night always resets to "Auto" when the AVR switches from Standby to On. With a plain old DD5.1 lossy codec it does not do this. I had heard that this was the way True HD discs were authored and that it was not an AVR issue.

Agreed.

I have noticed, however, a slight level difference between bitstream out from my BD player vs decoded to pcm from the player. I THINK I had to turn the bitstream UP to make it sound equivalent to the pcm. That could account for a perception of the bitstream output not sounding as dynamic.

Yeah - everything (and then some) is set per the above. And none of the Dolby Digital settings you list (i.e., room size, the "LFE" offset, etc.) are even available when in the DPLIIx mode. Further, all of my speakers are set to small and with an 80Hz x-over, the LFE LPF is set to 80Hz too, and the LFE output is set to "LFE" only which I believe is moot when the speakers are set to small...I'm an active student of batpig's body of great knowledge....

While others indeed may comment, I don't think that running these tests in DPLIIx Music vs. Neo:6 Music vs. 7-channel stereo vs. whatever would make much of a difference (as long as Dynamic EQ is off and I am not using a "DSP" mode - lord only knows what havoc those wreak). And I don't ever use 2.1 stereo so I didn't see any reason to test in that mode. Anyway, to my thinking I am only concerned about my sub's performance in the frequency region where I can and/or want to control it. In another words, I imagine that the sound mode choice might yield some difference in the graphs' 80Hz+ region (even possibly a big difference if in 2.1 mode), since that is mostly speaker content, but I ain't using my PEQ in that region (nor would it have that much affect anyway).

Hi Larry,
Yes, it will interfere. That's why we specify that they both can't be on at the same time.

Chris,

Reference my post.

Now I could see Dolby Late Night and Dynamic VOLUME interfering with each other, just like you can't have THX Loudness Plus and Dynamic EQ on at the same time, but not Late Night and Dynamic EQ. Please explain ... to us and maybe to Onkyo.

I think that it is an issue with the way some BD's are authored, but I'm not 100% sure that it isn't tied in to a brand of gear either. There is at leat one thread devoted to this issue. Iron Man is the only TrueHD BD I have that goes into AUTO.

Several of mine cause a flip to Auto, but don't ask me which ones. It may be a combo of authoring and equipment, I don't know. It is annoying though. In the defense industry, we call things like that "features."

Hi,

My concern is not specific to the Dolby version. In general, however, the purpose of a limiter is to lower the volume. One of the most objectionable artifacts of limiters is the fact that they only operate on one time constant. So, if the content is changing between soft and loud with different timing (as is the case for most content) then the limiter starts to pump up and down.

This pumping would cause Dynamic EQ to "pump" its compensation up and down as well because it would think that the volume is changing. In Dynamic Volume we address this by having the two algorithms "communicate".

Hey bluesky,

Thanks so much for the suggestion. I downloaded "I can see clearly now" from Rhapsody and even in the wma format that it uses sounded really good with my sansa fuze as the source. I repeatedly played the song with my eyes closed and ended up listening to it with only Multi EQ on or off. I have to say I could honestly hear a difference with the Multi EQ correction on. The double bass seamed more defined and it just flat out sounded like music, where without it, the sound was more like hearing 2 satellites and a sub playing music.

Any ideas as to movies that have "detailed/complex" bass rather than just trying to crack the room's drywall.

Thanks again.

'Train Song" from the Holly Cole's Tempation album is also excellent for bass definition.

Same thing for me with the Onkyo 706, and TrueHD only.

Hey Steve,

I'll give it a listen, any movie scene suggestions?

Thanks

Makes sense. But since Late Night Mode is part of the Dolby Digital "package," I guess Onkyo wanted to make it available at all times.

Oh, it wasn't Larry's post you responded to, it was mine.

I'm not familar with that version so I can't say how it compares to the bass in Cole's.

What's more complex than cannon fire?