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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 614

post #18391 of 62235
9/6/09 at 2:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post

Very interesting, just like any computer chip, there is only so much processing power built in, until the next updated/improved chip. I wonder if this is why whenever I go from 2.1/stereo music playback to 5.1 or 7.1 that the volume level is immediately "lower"? My Onkyo 906 AVR does 145w/per channel and at moderate levels of db, the switch to more speakers always produces less output volume wise, not sure if it related to this or not. But after reading this I did make one adjustment on my AVR. I had originally set the "Master Volume Output to +6 db, so as not to accidently dial it up to far for my speakers limitations, but just in case of processor overhead, I've reset that AVR custom setting to "OFF". Now I can crank it up till the speakers explode, but maybe it can or will effect this other issue, I'll just be more careful now when adjusting volumes in the extreme range.

Hi Mac,

I think the easiest way to determine if you might be a candidate for this issue is to first see whether Audyssey has made multiple numbers of high positive trim adjustments. If not, I doubt its worth worrying about.

Larry
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post #18392 of 62235
9/6/09 at 2:02pm
Would I need to change anything in the basic setup pattern for speakers that are mounted on the horizontal rather than the vertical - like my Jamo D6's which are connected to an Onkyo TX-SR875?

Apologies if it's been mentioned before, but this thread is moooohasive and would take me a year to read through...

Many thanks.
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post #18393 of 62235
9/6/09 at 2:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Guys,

I appreciate what Mr. Holman is saying. However, it is fair to say that those of us who appreciate Surround Back effects, don't expect or want a continual shift of focus to the rear. A transient shift is extremely effective in certain movies, such as horror movies where the monster has snuck up behind you. Having bullets whiz past your ear in "Saving Private Ryan" absolutely didn't detract from the presentation.

Nevertheless, I have run into situations where I had too much of a "good" thing. The one that is most painful for me is the Roy Orbision & Friends: Black & White music DVD. I both love and hate this DVD. Love because of Roy's near operatic voice. Hate because of the emphasis on the surround presentation.

This was what I would call a radical mix. Perhaps the intent was to hear the music from Roy's perspective. What was done sounded novel at first, but after a while it became very distracting. The chorus, which was behind Roy, was shifted to the surround channels behind the listener. Not good in my view.

So in the case of a sustained surround back presentation I would have to emphatically agree with Mr. Holman. In the case of some classic, well-mixed action movies, with well conceived transient effects, I would have to emphatically disagree.

By the way, I don't disagree that some cinematographers may go nuts, but they might need to be reminded that movies are more than just video.

Larry

Hi Larry,

Tom Holman and his eXperiment is exactly what I had in mind with "early surround thinkers" and the first scenario you mention is the phenomenon he wanted to avoid regardless of how brief the occurance. The second issue you raise is regarding an "in the band" mix, in this particular case the band is on stage. FWIW, personally, the Steely Dan and Donald Fagan 5.1 DVD-A mixes, which are also in the band, are some of my favorite listening. Perhaps theirs is/was a more skillful mix than Roy's, or your preferences differ from mine.

Jeff
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post #18394 of 62235
9/6/09 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post


...FWIW, personally, the Steely Dan and Donald Fagan 5.1 DVD-A mixes, which are also in the band, are some of my favorite listening.

I listened to Gaucho and Morph the Cat last night and it was awesome! Fwiw, I like that "in the band" experience using rear surrounds in a 7.1(2) config.

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post


Yeah, maybe the mix was too skillful. It realistically placed the chorus in the audience.

Fwiw, I don't always imagine a band playing in front of me when I listen to multichannel music as much as like being "in the round" and hearing the music in my head....Sort of trippy as the kids used to say.
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post #18395 of 62235
9/6/09 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Hi Larry,

Tom Holman and his eXperiment is exactly what I had in mind with "early surround thinkers" and the first scenario you mention is the phenomenon he wanted to avoid regardless of how brief the occurance.

Hi Jeff,

Well, I'm glad that Steven Spielburg didn't take Tom's advice and avoid transient rear directional sounds in Saving Private Ryan. In addition to all the movie's other awards, it wouldn't have won an Academy Award for best Sound and Sound Effects Editing.

Quote:


The second issue you raise is regarding an "in the band" mix, in this particular case the band is on stage. FWIW, personally, the Steely Dan and Donald Fagan 5.1 DVD-A mixes, which are also in the band, are some of my favorite listening. Perhaps theirs is/was a more skillful mix than Roy's, or your preferences differ from mine.

Jeff

Yeah, maybe the mix was too skillful. It realistically placed the chorus in the audience.

Larry
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post #18396 of 62235
9/6/09 at 2:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

The second issue you raise is regarding an "in the band" mix, in this particular case the band is on stage. FWIW, personally, the Steely Dan and Donald Fagan 5.1 DVD-A mixes, which are also in the band, are some of my favorite listening.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zen Traveler View Post

I listened to Gaucho and Morph the Cat last night and it was awesome! Fwiw, I like that "in the band" experience using rear surrounds in a 7.1(2) config.

Hi Guys,

I don't think that references to audio without video content are what Mr. Holman was discussing. My reference had video.

Larry
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post #18397 of 62235
9/6/09 at 2:48pm
i have a question i ran the audyssey set up on my denon 1610 and on some movies the dialog is lower than i would like it to be. i have energy take classic center and surrounds, everything sounds good except the dialog on those movies.

if i raise the volume on the center speaker is it going to mess up the audyssey settings where i can't use the dynamic Eq/volume?
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post #18398 of 62235
9/6/09 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Day View Post

Would I need to change anything in the basic setup pattern for speakers that are mounted on the horizontal rather than the vertical - like my Jamo D6's which are connected to an Onkyo TX-SR875?

Hi Brian,

I don't see what you could change in the setup that would make adjustments for speaker design.

Larry
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post #18399 of 62235
9/6/09 at 2:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by soul embrace View Post

i have a question i ran the audyssey set up on my denon 1610 and on some movies the dialog is lower than i would like it to be. i have energy take classic center and surrounds, everything sounds good except the dialog on those movies.

if i raise the volume on the center speaker is it going to mess up the audyssey settings where i can't use the dynamic Eq/volume?

First make sure that the center speaker is aimed properly at the listening area and not too close to the floor or other boundry. If it is not aimed properly or is too close to the floor, move it and rerun Audyssey. If after that you still find it too low in volume, raise the center volume a few db. Preference vs reference.
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post #18400 of 62235
9/6/09 at 2:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Brian,

I don't see what you could change in the setup that would make adjustments for speaker design.

Larry

Many thanks. I was a little concerned by the fact that, after running Audyssey and then checking the levels using an analogue Radio Shack SPL, the difference was a little more than I had expected.
I believe that Audyssey is supposed to be +/- 2db from reference level when calibrating the actual levels - but mine seem a lot more than that - more like -8db accross the board.
Should I rely on the Audyssey settings and leave them be or trust my trusty (13 year old ) SPL and ramp up the volumes to read 75db on that?

Thanks for your help.
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post #18401 of 62235
9/6/09 at 3:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Jeff,

Well, I'm glad that Steven Spielburg didn't take Tom's advice and avoid transient rear directional sounds in Saving Private Ryan. In addition to all the movie's other awards, it wouldn't have won an Academy Award for best Sound and Sound Effects Editing.

Tom's efforts did not place any restrictions on the artist, but rather dealt with duplicating the cineplex experience in the home. Duplicating the surrouund "experience" of the relatively cavernous movie theaters in our homes involved using dipole surrounds. Having said that, Steven's a bright lad and if he wanted us to hear the bullets flying around us in spite of his story being told on the screen in front of us, then he had a reason. My guess would be that he wanted us to give us more of an "in the war" feeling.

Quote:


Yeah, maybe the mix was too skillful. It realistically placed the chorus in the audience.

Look at the person sitting next to you. They might be in the chorus!
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post #18402 of 62235
9/6/09 at 3:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Day View Post

Many thanks. I was a little concerned by the fact that, after running Audyssey and then checking the levels using an analogue Radio Shack SPL, the difference was a little more than I had expected.
I believe that Audyssey is supposed to be +/- 2db from reference level when calibrating the actual levels - but mine seem a lot more than that - more like -8db accross the board.
Should I rely on the Audyssey settings and leave them be or trust my trusty (13 year old ) SPL and ramp up the volumes to read 75db on that?

Thanks for your help.

Is the -8dB difference with an Onkyo 875?
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post #18403 of 62235
9/6/09 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Day View Post

Many thanks. I was a little concerned by the fact that, after running Audyssey and then checking the levels using an analogue Radio Shack SPL, the difference was a little more than I had expected.
I believe that Audyssey is supposed to be +/- 2db from reference level when calibrating the actual levels - but mine seem a lot more than that - more like -8db accross the board.
Should I rely on the Audyssey settings and leave them be or trust my trusty (13 year old ) SPL and ramp up the volumes to read 75db on that?

Thanks for your help.

Hi Brian,

Personally, I would trust Audyssey over an old Radio Shack SPL meter especially for low and high frequencies, and especially if you can't hear a problem and are merely reacting to numbers on a meter.

If its absolutely bugging you you can make manual adjustments in trim and see how that sounds to you. I don't know whether your AVR has Audyssey Dynamic EQ, but such an adjustment would throws things off a bit. In other words, zero on the master volume won't be reference level and Dynamic EQ expects it to be there.

Larry
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post #18404 of 62235
9/6/09 at 3:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

First make sure that the center speaker is aimed properly at the listening area and not too close to the floor or other boundry. If it is not aimed properly or is too close to the floor, move it and rerun Audyssey. If after that you still find it too low in volume, raise the center volume a few db. Preference vs reference.


thanks for the reply. the center speaker is sitting right below the tv and sitting in the center of the tv. the bottom of the speaker is 1' 2" from the floor and sitting flat on the TV stand. when sitting on the couch the speaker is about 1' 6" below my ears. should i aim the speaker slightly up towards my head?
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post #18405 of 62235
9/6/09 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by soul embrace View Post

thanks for the reply. the center speaker is sitting right below the tv and sitting in the center of the tv. the bottom of the speaker is 1' 2" from the floor and sitting flat on the TV stand. when sitting on the couch the speaker is about 1' 6" below my ears. should i aim the speaker slightly up towards my head?

Yes.
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post #18406 of 62235
9/6/09 at 3:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by soul embrace View Post

thanks for the reply. the center speaker is sitting right below the tv and sitting in the center of the tv. the bottom of the speaker is 1' 2" from the floor and sitting flat on the TV stand. when sitting on the couch the speaker is about 1' 6" below my ears. should i aim the speaker slightly up towards my head?

Yes. Then re-run Audyssey.
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post #18407 of 62235
9/6/09 at 3:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Jeff,

Well, I'm glad that Steven Spielburg didn't take Tom's advice and avoid transient rear directional sounds in Saving Private Ryan. In addition to all the movie's other awards, it wouldn't have won an Academy Award for best Sound and Sound Effects Editing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Tom's efforts did not place any restrictions on the artist, but rather dealt with duplicating the cineplex experience in the home. Duplicating the surrouund "experience" of the relatively cavernous movie theaters in our homes involved using dipole surrounds. Having said that, Steven's a bright lad and if he wanted us to hear the bullets flying around us in spite of his story being told on the screen in front of us, then he had a reason. My guess would be that he wanted us to give us more of an "in the war" feeling.

Hi Jeff,

If Mr. Spielburg's re-recording engineer hadn't placed sound in the surround channels, two things would have happened. He wouldn't have won an Academy Award for Sound and Sound Effects Editing, and we wouldn't be having this conversation regarding the value of four surround speakers at home.

I'm glad you agree that the intent of the movie was to put sounds behind the listener. It helps to have surrounds when that is the intent.

Larry
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post #18408 of 62235
9/6/09 at 3:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

I'm assuming you really meant the Low-Pass Filter for the LFE Channel as the frequency where DoubleBass/LFE+Main starts copying bass from the mains.

That's what I wrote, isn't it? Bass appears to "double" from the set lowpass of the "LFE" channel.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

So if your main's lower -3dB roll-off is 60 Hz, and the main's content is copied to the subwoofer based on the Low-Pass Filter for the LFE Channel, that means you are not really duplicating any deep bass using DoubleBass/LFE+Main.

Not sure where you get that.

But it's not the overlap in the lowest octaves that's as important as in the modal region.


Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

In fact, since the lowest your mains can go is only 60 Hz

The lowest my mains can go is close to DC. They just don't produce much output there! However, just because the anechoic F3 is around 60 Hz, that doesn't mean they don't extend further in room. In fact, Denon wants me to put the mains highpass at 40 Hz, based on Audyssey's in-room measurements. In room the mains are subjectively fine to the mid 30s in sweeps. (Because of the room's asymmetry, the left one, which is in a corner, goes down a good half-octave lower than the C or R, which is one reason why MultEQ XT makes such a difference in my room.) Remember, F3's aren't brick walls, and sealed cabinets roll off at half the rate of vented cabinets, without the phase issues below box tuning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Regardless, as you probably know in some cases content can be localized at frequencies as low as 60 Hz, so anything much above it copied from the mains to the subwoofer is very likely to be localized. Assume for example some content at 110 Hz was copied from your mains to your subwoofer. You now have localizable content playing in both your mains and your subwoofer. This will result in multiple phantom images between your mains and subwoofer. Depending on where the subwoofer is in relation to the mains it will narrow your soundstage, or pull imaging off the intended direction.

You're writing based on pure conjecture. In truth, nothing like that happens. And I'm pretty sensitive to bass localization. With an unmasked signal I can often hear where a sub is at 60Hz, and sometimes at 40Hz. In a full spectrum with the signal also being produced where it's expected (up front) it's just plain a non-issue. The only localization issue is with rattling things around the location of a sub, until one fixes them.
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post #18409 of 62235
9/6/09 at 3:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluesky636 View Post

Yes. Then re-run Audyssey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yes.

thanks. i have a new sub ordered that should be in this week. i will adjust the center speaker and re run audyssey once the sub comes in.

thanks for your help
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post #18410 of 62235
9/6/09 at 3:25pm
Looks like the troll has returned.

(Not you, soul embrace.)
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post #18411 of 62235
9/6/09 at 4:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

The only trouble is that if the studios ever started to implement the 7.1 standard when mixing then the directions of the Surround speakers would be off by 30°, but I guess that problem already exists when you have mutiple rows of seating.

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Do you have an opinion regarding my comments highlighted above?

Hi Larry,

I'm probably the last person you should be asking about standards, since I use my 7.1 system in such a non-standard way (i.e., no one in the industry records music with my playback configuration in mind, nor do I expect them to).

But since you asked, I'll voice my opinion. I would rather see a more generalized standard, with a little bit of flexibility. As long as the side speakers are generally to the sides (doesn't have to be precisely 90 degrees) and the rear speakers are clearly behind (doesn't have to be exactly 150 degrees), then I'm fine with it.

A +/- 30-degree swing would be too much for me; sounds intended to appear along my sides would now be noticeably in front of me or behind me. There are already speakers at those locations for coverage and I don't think it's worth sacrificing lateral imaging stability to move the side speakers that far off-angle.

BTW, I don't think this is a particular problem for a second row, any more than incorrect calibration is for those seats. If you're out of the sweet spot, then nothing is aligned for you: speaker angles, volume levels, time alignment, etc. New standards can't change (let alone help) that.
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post #18412 of 62235
9/6/09 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Brian,

Personally, I would trust Audyssey over an old Radio Shack SPL meter especially for low and high frequencies, and especially if you can't hear a problem and are merely reacting to numbers on a meter.

If its absolutely bugging you you can make manual adjustments in trim and see how that sounds to you. I don't know whether your AVR has Audyssey Dynamic EQ, but such an adjustment would throws things off a bit. In other words, zero on the master volume won't be reference level and Dynamic EQ expects it to be there.

Larry

No - no dynamic EQ on the 875. But you have put my mind at rest and I'll leave the levels well alone.

Thanks for your help.
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post #18413 of 62235
9/6/09 at 7:17pm
I currently have dual subs and an AVR (used as pre/pro) with Audyssesy XT but only a single sub channel. In the near future I would like to upgrade to a dedicated pre/pro and see some of the processors (Denon AVP, new Onkyo PR-SC887 etc) have multiple sub outs. Currently, I manually balance the output of each sub so match each other pretty closely. I then run Audyssey which treats the dual subs as one.

My question. Are the subs treated independently by Audyssey in the units that have multiple sub outputs? In other words does Audyssey ping each sub independently and set up a filter for each one? If this is indeed the case, is it a significant upgrade over the single channel setup I currently have?

Thanks for any input you might have.
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post #18414 of 62235
9/6/09 at 7:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Picasso Moon View Post

I currently have dual subs and an AVR (used as pre/pro) with Audyssesy XT but only a single sub channel. In the near future I would like to upgrade to a dedicated pre/pro and see some of the processors (Denon AVP, new Onkyo PR-SC887 etc) have multiple sub outs. Currently, I manually balance the output of each sub so match each other pretty closely. I then run Audyssey which treats the dual subs as one.

My question. Are the subs treated independently by Audyssey in the units that have multiple sub outputs? In other words does Audyssey ping each sub independently and set up a filter for each one? If this is indeed the case, is it a significant upgrade over the single channel setup I currently have?

Thanks for any input you might have.

AVRs and pre/pros with more than one sub output AND distance/level setting per output are new to the market, so this is new territory for everyone except Chris (audyssey). My guess would be that if they are boinked individually, then they are EQ'd individually. If boinked simultaneously, then EQ'd as one.
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post #18415 of 62235
9/6/09 at 7:50pm
Thanks Pepar. Hopefully Chris will chime in when he gets a chance.
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post #18416 of 62235
9/6/09 at 8:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Picasso Moon View Post

I currently have dual subs and an AVR (used as pre/pro) with Audyssesy XT but only a single sub channel. In the near future I would like to upgrade to a dedicated pre/pro and see some of the processors (Denon AVP, new Onkyo PR-SC887 etc) have multiple sub outs. Currently, I manually balance the output of each sub so match each other pretty closely. I then run Audyssey which treats the dual subs as one.

My question. Are the subs treated independently by Audyssey in the units that have multiple sub outputs? In other words does Audyssey ping each sub independently and set up a filter for each one? If this is indeed the case, is it a significant upgrade over the single channel setup I currently have?

Thanks for any input you might have.

Hi,

The Denon AVP definitely treats the three subs individually and so MultEQ will apply separate correction to each one. Not very many other AVRs and Prepros treat subs separately so it's best to check with each manufacturer directly to make sure. Audyssey will correct subs separately if that capability is given to it in the AVR.
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post #18417 of 62235
9/6/09 at 9:39pm
I searched, but couldn't find anything specific. Does anyone have any links or references to acoustical treatments and placement for DSX? Or does anyone have opinions on treatments for DSX? I know each room would be different, but I'm interested in knowing in a general sense.

Thanks
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post #18418 of 62235
9/6/09 at 11:23pm
I have the 4308ci and a 7.2 system.

In the Audio settings I could use some help.

Do I set AFDM to on or off?

On SB CH OUT (SURROUND BACK) - Here are the choices, WHICH ONE IS BEST?

MTRX ON
PLllX Cinema
PLllX Music
Non Matrx
OFF

Thanks in advance.
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post #18419 of 62235
9/7/09 at 12:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Personally, I would trust Audyssey over an old Radio Shack SPL meter especially for low and high frequencies, and especially if you can't hear a problem and are merely reacting to numbers on a meter.

If its absolutely bugging you you can make manual adjustments in trim and see how that sounds to you. I don't know whether your AVR has Audyssey Dynamic EQ, but such an adjustment would throws things off a bit. In other words, zero on the master volume won't be reference level and Dynamic EQ expects it to be there.

Larry

Just note that in earlier models, Audyssey does indeed balance the levels of the speakers but
does not set the trims to match reference volume at 0dB.
Then users would have to adjust the trims manually if they want reference at 0dB.
But, if you got the newer Audyssey mic and Dynamic EQ, it should be setting reference levels.
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post #18420 of 62235
9/7/09 at 5:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

Just note that in earlier models, Audyssey does indeed balance the levels of the speakers but
does not set the trims to match reference volume at 0dB.
Then users would have to adjust the trims manually if they want reference at 0dB.
But, if you got the newer Audyssey mic and Dynamic EQ, it should be setting reference levels.

Hi Richard,

Excellent point.

Larry
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)