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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 735

post #22021 of 62741
1/2/10 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Hi Chris,
If one were to do a C-Weighted Max SPL test at the primary listening position for a bass intense track with Audyssey turned on (DEQ off and DVol off) and Audyssey off, can the Max SPL value with Audyssey and without Audyssey be expected to be about the same?
Or will the psychoacoustic criteria for determining equal loudness (Fletcher-Munson curve or some equivalent maybe your own proprietary curve) cause this above mentioned test to be not valid?
Thanks,
-Jai

Hi Chris,
You are already flooded with questions and sorry to bother you with one more. If you get a chance, it would be great to know an answer for my above question that was posted earlier.
Thanks a lot!
-Jai
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post #22022 of 62741
1/2/10 at 5:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote_5 View Post

I have little Klipsch synergy satellites. ...............that setting seems awfully high.

Well, what are the "little" speakers, exactly?
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post #22023 of 62741
1/2/10 at 5:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcomp124 View Post

Hi Chris,
If one were to do a C-Weighted Max SPL test at the primary listening position for a bass intense track with Audyssey turned on (DEQ off and DVol off) and Audyssey off, can the Max SPL value with Audyssey and without Audyssey be expected to be about the same?
Or will the psychoacoustic criteria for determining equal loudness (Fletcher-Munson curve or some equivalent maybe your own proprietary curve) cause this above mentioned test to be not valid?
Thanks,
-Jai

Hi Jai,

One wouldn't want to use a "bass intense" track, but a controlled test signal. It has been shown in the technical literature that broadband signals (such as pink noise) are not suitable for setting SPL levels because they are too susceptible to room modes. It's much better to use narrowband signals like the ones provided in your AVR. If you measure using that signal you will find that the SPL will be very close with MultEQ on and off.
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post #22024 of 62741
1/2/10 at 5:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote_5 View Post

I ran Audyssey on my Denon 2310 and it set my satellite crossovers (all 5) at 150hz. I have little Klipsch synergy satellites. I read that you shouldn't lower the crossovers that Audyssey sets, but that setting seems awfully high. I have a 12" klipsch sub as well that was set at the highest LPF when I ran the program.

Suggestions?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Well, what are the "little" speakers, exactly?

These are exactly what I have, Klipsch synergy quintet (for reference, those woofers are 3.5")

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post #22025 of 62741
1/2/10 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by HDTVChallenged View Post

Also, for some reason, Onkyo AVR's tend to be less prone to producing to "phase warnings" than say Denon AVRs

I'm getting phase warnings with my Denon 3808. I'm on my second set of speakers, my first set was a Bose Acoustimass 15 system and now I have upgraded to a Mythos STS system (Mythos STS L/R. Mythos 9 Center, and Mythos Gem rears). Both times I ran Audyssey (once with the Bose and once with the Mythos), the 3808 told me my polarity was set wrong on both my L and my R front channels. I didn't think that much of it with my Bose as I had been through a difficult in-wall wiring process and might have gotten mixed up (despite my careful attention). This time, it was much easier and I could easily see that I was wired correctly.

My question is this: should I follow the Auddyssey's instructions even though I can see that my wiring is right (maybe something inside the Denon is backwards!) or should I ignore the polarity warning and leave my wiring as is?

BTW, when I reverse my wiring, it goes away! I just don't want to hurt my speakers
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post #22026 of 62741
1/2/10 at 5:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckelly33 View Post

My question is this: should I follow the Auddyssey's instructions even though I can see that my wiring is right (maybe something inside the Denon is backwards!) or should I ignore the polarity warning and leave my wiring as is?

It's no uncommon for speaker manufacturers to intentionally wire a driver out of phase. This is sometimes used as a way to address response issues in the crossover region. MultEQ may give you a warning, but it's just a warning to check your wiring. If your wiring is correct on the back of the speaker and the back of the AVR then just hit Skip and move on.

BTW, flipping the phase on a speaker will not damage it.
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post #22027 of 62741
1/2/10 at 6:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote_5 View Post

I have little Klipsch synergy satellites. ...............that setting seems awfully high.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Well, what are the "little" speakers, exactly?

Quote:
Originally Posted by coyote_5 View Post

These are exactly what I have, Klipsch synergy quintet (for reference, those woofers are 3.5")


Well, those ARE truly "little" speakers. That the crossover was set to 150Hz is no real surprise. Those speakers' -3dB point is 100Hz (120Hz for the center) according to the Klipsch website, but with 3.5" drivers that is hard to believe. 150Hz seems to be a pretty reasonable crossover setting.
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post #22028 of 62741
1/2/10 at 6:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sivadselim View Post

Well, those ARE truly "little" speakers. That the crossover was set to 150Hz is no real surprise. Those speakers' -3dB point is 100Hz (120Hz for the center) according to the Klipsch website, but with 3.5" drivers that is hard to believe. 150Hz seems to be a pretty reasonable crossover setting.

Well, I've been considering replacing them with something more substantial. Maybe this is the push I need. Thanks for the response
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post #22029 of 62741
1/2/10 at 7:24pm
Chris,

"...but the measurement for the right surround is off by a foot. It reads 7 feet, but it's only six feet from the 1st seating position."

"...This can happen if there is some asymmetry in the room or an open space near one of the speakers."

I don't get this.

I presume the distance is determined by the shortest arrival time to the mike of any sound; how could that be affected by openings or asymmetry?
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post #22030 of 62741
1/2/10 at 8:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post

I don't get this.

I presume the distance is determined by the shortest arrival time to the mike of any sound; how could that be affected by openings or asymmetry?

Hi Noah,

In principle the distance is determined by the shortest arrival, but the algorithm looks at the low frequencies. The wavelengths for those are quite long and so the "flashlight" concept of rays arriving at the mic doesn't quite apply. The arrival of the wavefront can be greatly influenced by the room and nearby openings.
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post #22031 of 62741
1/2/10 at 9:07pm
Hi,
Am a newbie with Audessy (Marantz Sr6004). I hope someone can help me. The automatic Audessy setup always makes my center channel sound tinny, as in making all male voices sound like horse jockeys. The speaker is a Paradigm CC390 v6, and it sounds perfectly right without the automatic eq, but of course, I like the promise of Audessy's Dynamic Eq that "solves the problem of deteriorating sound quality as the volume is reduced" (quoted from the Marantz SR6004 manual). I have had to change the setting from "Small" to "Large" for it to sound more natural. But "Large" it is not because its -3db point is around 60ish, from memory. Help!

Mel
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post #22032 of 62741
1/2/10 at 10:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ckelly33 View Post

My question is this: should I follow the Auddyssey's instructions even though I can see that my wiring is right (maybe something inside the Denon is backwards!) or should I ignore the polarity warning and leave my wiring as is?

Do what Chris ("audyssey") said ... If you're still in doubt, you can always run the phase check tracks from Avia or some other test disk. In my case, I still get warnings on my L/R front, but the system checks out correctly with the Avia tracks.
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post #22033 of 62741
1/3/10 at 2:42am
I'm new to home theater systems, so I'm here with the question: is Audyssey actually a good thing? Or is it bull?

I come from listening to bookshelf speakers and expensive headphones with music. The idea was that for the best sound, you would want to always minimize the amount of processing done on the audio. EQing and such was generally a bad idea because using EQ most of the time has a negative impact on quality.

So why EQ home theater systems? Isn't the idea of lossless audio quality on BluRays so that your speakers can play the sound exactly how it was recorded? If you process the sound in a million different ways, aren't you harming the quality rather than improving it?

Thanks
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post #22034 of 62741
1/3/10 at 3:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by t1337Dude View Post

So why EQ home theater systems? Isn't the idea of lossless audio quality on BluRays so that your speakers can play the sound exactly how it was recorded?

Others will surely comment but here is food for thought:
think of your room as a big equalizer which will cause big, 30-35dB?, variations, both dips and peaks, for certain frequencies and less variations for others.
Those variations need to be corrected in order to hear the sound exactly how it sounded when it was recorded.
That is where Audyssey fits in.
If 100% acoustic treatment of your room can't be done, Audyssey is one of your best shots.
But the best solution is probably using Audyssey in combination with acoustic treatment of your room.
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post #22035 of 62741
1/3/10 at 3:54am
While I second every thought of rickardl, let's put a twist into our way of thinking and let's call our room "Dennis"! Now, if there is someone who can ruin your audio quality in a room (any room), it's not Audyssey, but it's always Dennis. Yes, Dennis the Menace!

Basically a room will have a) resonances and b) reverberation. Audyssey will help you tame both. So simple, eh?
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post #22036 of 62741
1/3/10 at 4:29am
I ran automatic (Audyssey) setup on my Marantz SR6004 several times using the guidelines posted previouly in this forum.
Somehow it always made a "funny" response curve for my center channel. It accentuated all frequencies above 1khz centered at 4khz.
Is this a deliberate "tweak" of Audyssey's algorithm? Or, do I have a faulty receiver?
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post #22037 of 62741
1/3/10 at 5:40am
I am sure education is desirable, but don't feed the trolls.
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post #22038 of 62741
1/3/10 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter Galbavy View Post

I am sure education is desirable, but don't feed the trolls.

Peter,

I am pretty sure that you are qualified to give advice, but may I know your education please.

Thanks.
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post #22039 of 62741
1/3/10 at 7:02am
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post #22040 of 62741
1/3/10 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by MelNut View Post

I ran automatic (Audyssey) setup on my Marantz SR6004 several times using the guidelines posted previouly in this forum.
Somehow it always made a "funny" response curve for my center channel. It accentuated all frequencies above 1khz centered at 4khz.
Is this a deliberate "tweak" of Audyssey's algorithm? Or, do I have a faulty receiver?

Hi Mel,

This is a sign of a faulty tweeter in your speaker. MultEQ is seeing a big hole in the response and is trying to make up for it. Please check that the tweeters are producing high frequency sound. Or perhaps they have external connectors (metal tabs) that are not properly connected.
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post #22041 of 62741
1/3/10 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by t1337Dude View Post

I'm new to home theater systems, so I'm here with the question: is Audyssey actually a good thing? Or is it bull?

I come from listening to bookshelf speakers and expensive headphones with music. The idea was that for the best sound, you would want to always minimize the amount of processing done on the audio. EQing and such was generally a bad idea because using EQ most of the time has a negative impact on quality.

So why EQ home theater systems? Isn't the idea of lossless audio quality on BluRays so that your speakers can play the sound exactly how it was recorded? If you process the sound in a million different ways, aren't you harming the quality rather than improving it?

Thanks

Since you are new, you should start by reading this:

http://www.audyssey.com/technology/index.html
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post #22042 of 62741
1/3/10 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Yes, the FIR filters that MultEQ uses apply phase correction. Note that this is frequency dependent and not at all like the phase knob on the sub that only works at one frequency.

I've been meaning to ask a related question: I'm running a SVS 20-39CS+ (which has no built-in amp) off of a Samson 1000 rackmount amplifier. Naturally, I have no phase knob (though I'm using a spare ART-351 EQ only as a subsonic filter). However, pre-Audyssey, I ran frequency sweeps to check for cancellation near the crossover range and found that I was consistently getting cancellation between the sub and other channels near 80Hz. I checked the wiring to make sure everything was red-to-red and black-to-black, including taking the driver out to make sure it was wired correctly (and because I was upgrading drivers), and tried altering the distance/delay settings to see if they were just slightly off. I ended up finding that said cancellation went away if I simply swapped the positive and negative leads at the amp, so that's how I've left it wired after first going MultEQ XT with an Onkyo 705 and now with a TX-NR1007.

So my questions, I suppose, would be:
1) Am I seeing better blending with the mains with the leads swapped because of the cylindrical design of the sub (i.e. more sound coming from the ports on top than the woofer on the bottom with my particular placement)?
2) Should I leave it that way or swap it back to positive-to-positive... or will it even matter if Audyssey is, as you say, applying phase correction?
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post #22043 of 62741
1/3/10 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

I've been meaning to ask a related question: I'm running a SVS 20-39CS+ (which has no built-in amp) off of a Samson 1000 rackmount amplifier. Naturally, I have no phase knob (though I'm using a spare ART-351 EQ only as a subsonic filter). However, pre-Audyssey, I ran frequency sweeps to check for cancellation near the crossover range and found that I was consistently getting cancellation between the sub and other channels near 80Hz. I checked the wiring to make sure everything was red-to-red and black-to-black, including taking the driver out to make sure it was wired correctly (and because I was upgrading drivers), and tried altering the distance/delay settings to see if they were just slightly off. I ended up finding that said cancellation went away if I simply swapped the positive and negative leads at the amp, so that's how I've left it wired after first going MultEQ XT with an Onkyo 705 and now with a TX-NR1007.

So my questions, I suppose, would be:
1) Am I seeing better blending with the mains with the leads swapped because of the cylindrical design of the sub (i.e. more sound coming from the ports on top than the woofer on the bottom with my particular placement)?
2) Should I leave it that way or swap it back to positive-to-positive... or will it even matter if Audyssey is, as you say, applying phase correction?

Are you happy with the sound? If so, leave it alone.
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post #22044 of 62741
1/3/10 at 11:04am
I have identical LS, RS, LB & RB speakers. I've now done three 8 point calibrations with MultEQ XT. (Mic placement was within a 1" tolerance.) Each time, my LB & RB crossover points were set by Audyssey to 80Hz. However, The LS & RS were set at 90Hz twice, & 100Hz the last time. The LB & RB are mounted on the rear wall, The LS & RS are on stands away from the side walls.

It makes sense to me that the rears might show a lower -3db cutoff point due to some wall boundary reinforcement of the LFs, and as to why the sides might show a higher cutoff point due to none. Is my thinking correct here?

Is there any point in recalibrating to see if the sides reset to again to the lower 90Hz. Should I consider raising the rears to 90Hz or 100Hz to match the sides for any reason?

Also, my LCRs all set to "full", and after reading the Audyssey Setup Guide's suggestion to consider satellites "small", I've reset the x-over points to 70Hz arbitrarily. My Pre/Pro allows me to move x-over points in 10Hz increments, so how does one come up with the "correct" setting when it appears Audyssey has determined a -3db level below 40Hz? (I'm using a Paradigm Servo-15 subwoofer which shows no signs of strain no matter what I throw at it, if that has any bearing on where I set the LCR x-over level...)
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post #22045 of 62741
1/3/10 at 11:06am
Hi Jeremy,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy Anderson View Post

1) Am I seeing better blending with the mains with the leads swapped because of the cylindrical design of the sub (i.e. more sound coming from the ports on top than the woofer on the bottom with my particular placement)?

I don't think the cylinder shape has anything to do with it. It probably just happens that at 80 Hz where you are crossing over the distances are such that the blending is better with a polarity swap. Just be sure you are mot judging the blend based on a single mic measurement. If you can, take a spatial average of a few measurements in your listening are to really see what the blend looks like.

Quote:


2) Should I leave it that way or swap it back to positive-to-positive... or will it even matter if Audyssey is, as you say, applying phase correction?

MultEQ will try to flatten the response no matter what, but it will do a better job if you start from the right conditions. The experiment above should give you more info to make a decision.
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post #22046 of 62741
1/3/10 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mjmbond View Post

It makes sense to me that the rears might show a lower -3db cutoff point due to some wall boundary reinforcement of the LFs, and as to why the sides might show a higher cutoff point due to none. Is my thinking correct here?

Yes, your thinking is correct.

Quote:


Is there any point in recalibrating to see if the sides reset to again to the lower 90Hz. Should I consider raising the rears to 90Hz or 100Hz to match the sides for any reason?

No, don't bother. You will not notice any difference. It's likely that MultEQ is measuring a roll off somewhere between 90-100 Hz. Because the AVR only sets crossovers in 10 Hz increments it flip flops between the two numbers. It's really not worth spending any time on this as the results are practically identical.

Quote:


Also, my LCRs all set to "full", and after reading the Audyssey Setup Guide's suggestion to consider satellites "small", I've reset the x-over points to 70Hz arbitrarily.

A crossover between 60-80 Hz is typical so you are right in the ballpark.
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post #22047 of 62741
1/3/10 at 11:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by t1337Dude View Post

So why EQ home theater systems? Isn't the idea of lossless audio quality on BluRays so that your speakers can play the sound exactly how it was recorded? If you process the sound in a million different ways, aren't you harming the quality rather than improving it?

Thanks

As others have mentioned, the goal of Audyssey is to get your system sounding like what we are used to hearing on the mixing stage by taming the undesirable effects that room shape, speaker placement constraints, reverberation, etc.. can have on the reproduced sound... by using EQ and time alignment, it tries to replicate as close to an eq curve as possible to the reference standard we tune our rooms to..

But realize that we "EQ" the rooms we mix the films in...

Even after purpose building our rooms with the best in architecture and acoustic design (which let's us control reverb times, noise floors and nodes for example), every one requires tuning with delays and eq's to achieve a flat x-curve response... the difference is we do it with RTA's and by hand, which is a lot more time consuming than the auto setup that Audyssey does...

And the same thing happens in each movie theater that a film plays at.
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post #22048 of 62741
1/3/10 at 11:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

In principle the distance is determined by the shortest arrival, but the algorithm looks at the low frequencies.

Interesting; what's the rationale for that?
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post #22049 of 62741
1/3/10 at 12:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmMixer View Post

As others have mentioned, the goal of Audyssey is to get your system sounding like what we are used to hearing on the mixing stage by taming the undesirable effects that room shape, speaker placement constraints, reverberation, etc.. can have on the reproduced sound... by using EQ and time alignment, it tries to replicate as close to an eq curve as possible to the reference standard we tune our rooms to..

But realize that we "EQ" the rooms we mix the films in...

Even after purpose building our rooms with the best in architecture and acoustic design (which let's us control reverb times, noise floors and nodes for example), every one requires tuning with delays and eq's to achieve a flat x-curve response... the difference is we do it with RTA's and by hand, which is a lot more time consuming than the auto setup that Audyssey does...

And the same thing happens in each movie theater that a film plays at.


Moreover, to me, the old school anti-EQ point of view was not based on the idea that room EQ itself was bad but at least in part because the available analog devices could introduce noise and other unintended signal distortions. A channel of really good, clean, flexible analog eq is quite expensive. (Of course in the good old days, people chose mixing consoles in part on their inherent "sound," which really means something like "I like the Neve's distortions.") By making its changes in the digital domain, on a digital signal, Audyssey is not usbject to those old school analog bugaboos. Even after 10 years, the Audyssey program will not suddenly start issuing a bunch of self-noise, or have components whose values have drifted so that it no longer does what you think it is doing.

And if your room adds 10 dB to the bass at 60 Hz, is that the sound that was the producers/sound guys/engineers recorded? No. Audyssey may be able to significantly improve such in-room frequency response anomalies. So at least in theory, once your signal is digital, well-implemented signal processing has no real downside I can see.
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post #22050 of 62741
1/3/10 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Mel,

This is a sign of a faulty tweeter in your speaker. MultEQ is seeing a big hole in the response and is trying to make up for it. Please check that the tweeters are producing high frequency sound. Or perhaps they have external connectors (metal tabs) that are not properly connected.

Hi Chris,

Thank you very much.

I checked that the tweeters are producing the HF sounds. I also just then discovered that a "hole" in the HF sounds appear at heights at and below ear-height - precisely where I positioned the eq microphone. At just an inch or two above that the very HF sounds re-appear.

The center channel is mounted/positioned high-up above the 52" lcd tv and pointed slightly downwards pointing close to, but not quite, at ear-height of listening position.

What causes this HF sound hole, and what could I do to fix it?

Again thanks.

/Mel
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)