"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 801

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You're welcome. Like SoundofMind said maybe learn how to use it. Or maybe Audyssey has said all he wants to about it.

I tried the workaround with the increased treble but I have reverted back to using the Audyssey Reference curve.
After all, Audyssey recommends the Reference curve for everything except for the THX listening mode because of the THX Re-EQ functionality.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post12790430
... the Audyssey calibrated response is not flat. There are many reasons for this that came out of our research. They have to do with the fact that directivity of loudspeakers is very different at high frequencies than it is in the lower frequencies. So the relative weighting among them has to be balanced and we do that with a rolloff in the high frequencies that starts at 4 kHz and goes down gently at 10 kHz and then slightly steeper after that to 20 kHz. The only time we recommend using a Flat response (Audyssey provides that as well) is when the receiver is set to THX mode. Then the THX re-eq is allowed to do its job properly.

It's not just for 2ch material. Any non-cinema content that the user would want to hear un-processed would have the same issue. But probably most who have encountered the lack of a flat target curve have found an acceptable ... or bearable .. workaround, either the THX Re-EQ defeat method or twiddling the tone control. Some of us have Pro Kits that we use to load customized target curves.

Other than the $100 DynEQ/Vol upgrade for the 08 Denon 3808 and higher models, has this sort of firmware upgrade happened before? I've seen lots of firmware responsivity with Oppo, but I don't think most HT OEM's are that responsive to what they likely see as a minor preference issue for a small # of users.

But while you're at it, petition for MultEQXT why don't you. I think it's a shame how that has shifted way up the Denon/Onk product line this year instead of filtering down! I was going to recommend a Denon AVR with XT to mupi but he'd have to spend a lot more than $1K to get a 4310!

People not searching is one of the top reasons this thread got to 800 pages. I've seen people ask questions that had been answered in the post above.

I think you're both smoking something. It's not like the brakes don't work or the accelerator sticks. Look at the years of complaints it took before something was done about that, and that is life-threatening.

Manufacturers will do what they want, will differentiate their products in the manner in which they see fit and will *not* retroactively add important features to products that have already gone out the door. They have moved on.

Well it doesnt matter what Audyssey thinks is right. I just dont like to listen to 2ch music with the highs rolled off.

I am going to ask the dealer about exchanging for the Denon. I have to go through my co-worker. I will try.

Go on and change to Denon if that makes you happy, but be aware that Audyssey is pretty much equally incorporated into brands like:

1. Onkyo
2. Integra (Onkyo high end)
3. Denon
4. NAD
5. Marantz

Follow this link to make your choice: : http://www.audyssey.com/products?f=consumer-ready

I guess you didnt understand why I am changing to Denon.

DHC 40.1 does not allow me to use Audyssey Flat for 2ch Stereo
where as Denon 3310 allows me to use Audyssey Flat for anything.
Other than this there is no reason to switch. I didnt want a AVR/pre-pro
solution as I have separate amps. But I have no choice now.

I am stuck with this dealer for $1000 and he is also the dealer for Denon and that is another reason to get the Denon 3310CI.

Jeff, that indeed was my point. I was trying to be polite and couldn't find the "skeptical" emoticon.

Whatever suits your needs Man!

Nonetheless, do you really think a change from Audyssey Target Curve to Audyssey Flat is going to take you to Nirvana?

I've got Denon (AVR-2310) and a change from Audyssey Target Curve to Audyssey Flat doesn't really make a difference I can notice. Tried it several times, yet to no avail. Probably it's due to my old ears (106 years old together)!

Well, on a serious note, it depends on your room size and program material.

Finally, have you ever tried to listen to music in Dolby xxx or DTS xxx instead of 2 CH stereo? I do prefer these modes even for CD music.

Do some more experiments please and report back to this thread. Curious to see your findings, really!

Mog, that's not quite accurate. There is variation in Audyssey implementation at a number of levels. The topic at hand is just one. I believe some Onk owners were saying they could use the tone controls with DynEQ on, which you cannot do in the Denon. IIRC some Marantz models couldn't even maintain Audyssey on line when doing some processing tasks. Surprisingly, one must look carefully at each model, beyond the "Audyssey" logo, to check the implementation.

A big reason we often recommend the Denon 1610 so highly over other brands for an inexpensive HT AVR is because it incorporates the full MultEQ "suite" with DynEQ/Vol at a great price. Look at the lower Onk AVR's and you get 2EQ or, IIRC, some Onks offer MultEQ with no DynVol or some such thing.

I can hear a distinct difference with Flat in my Denon 2809. I used to use it more but now that I have the Oppo playing SACD's and improved SQ on redbook, I don't use it at all. A little too bright.

I dont have the DHC 40.1 yet but I know how it would sound with the roll offs because I have tried that on the Anthem AVM20. At first when I used the AVM20 for 2ch stereo I was disappointed but later realized that I could turn this feature off for any listening mode. It is so simple to turn off that stupid roll off but Onkyo/Integra decided not to give that option.

It depends on personal taste. I just cant tolerate music without the highs. Some people hate a bright sound and for them high freq. roll off may work out well. But not for me. I would not have bought the Magnepan speakers if I hated a bright sound!

Nope I never listen to 2ch music in other modes. 2ch is 2ch :-) I am investing a lot of money for 2ch music like Magnepan MG12 speakers, Rotel RB-1080 amp etc. so I dont want to compromise on the sound quality. I never cared for multichannel music and thats one reason I have not bothered to play multichannel tracks of "Darkside of the Moon" SACD though people rave about it. I just wanted high resolution version of the original 2ch recording. Too bad there are not many SACD albums in rock/pop.

Welll, FWIW, I think Chris has been clear that there's nothing wrong with using Audyssey flat for program material, like music, that is mixed and mastered with a flat playback system (at least theoretically). I suspect the comment about the only time they recommend Audyssey flat is in the movie context, not applicable to other media.

There is, as we all know, a difference. Movies are mixed on systems that have been EQed to the X curve which means the playback system itself has attenuated highs. The mixer will naturally increase the highs in the source mix to account for that. Played back on a flat system, it's too bright. Played back with the X-Curve in a home-sized room, it is likely to be (people say) lacking in the high end. This has to do, as I understand it, with differences in the way we perceive sounds in larger spaces versus small spaces, and/or with some aspects of sound propagation (leaving the human side out of it) in small versus large spaces.

FWIW, I coule definitely hear the difference between the two curves on my former Maggies and still can on my current lesser system. When I was in the experimental stage with Audyssey I would occasionally listen to as much as half an album before it dawned on me that it was missing highs and I would switch it to Audyssey Flat. My Maggie 1.6s were far from bright, in my opinion. and they measure as rolling off pretty fast above around 14KHz, but I probably don't have much response up there anyway. Too much time standing next to the drummer.

Much as I loved 2 channel with my maggies, I eventually reverted to playing most of my music in PLII because I liked the added spaciousness. Some of that may have been due to less than perfect placement options in my room for the 1.6s. But, running 4.1 (with the Phantom of the Center) with the 1.6s in front and my former studio monitors (non-exotic cone and silk dome Event 20/20s) was quite satisfying. I don't know how much better it might have sounded with better matched surrounds. SOmetimes you don't miss what you don't know.

Anyway, I agree it's a shame there's not some kind of workaround for the Onkyo to use Audyssey Flat ("tonight we'll be playing Beethovart's 99th piano concerto in Audyssey Flat") in 2 channel for those who legitimately prefer to keep their two channel, 2 channel. But as I said above, at least if the surround is for better ambience rather than goofy instrument placement, I like having my music in surround format . . . although as I sit here today, I am back to a 3.1 system, awaiting the opportunity to get surrounded again, both for movies and music (or both, as I just finished Shine a Light about 20 minutes ago.

Dang. Windy outside, windy on AVS. Sorry.

cheap Tripod if anybody in Canada wants to pick one up
$9.99 at xscargo
I got one - cheap plastic but works great for Audyssey mic

http://www.shopxscargo.com/product_c...ry=Accessories

Found a more complete statement...

Q: What frequency response target is optimal?
A: Contrary to popular belief, a target curve that is flat from 20 Hz to 20 kHz is not always the one that will produce the correct sound. There are several reasons for this including the fact that loudspeakers are much more directional at high frequencies than they are at low frequencies. This means that the balance of direct and room sound is very different at the high and low ends of the frequency spectrum.
The Audyssey Reference target curve setting makes the appropriate correction at high frequencies to alleviate this problem. A slight roll-off is introduced that restores the balance between direct and reflected sound.
The Audyssey Flat setting uses the MultEQ filters in the same way as the Audyssey curve, but it does not apply a high frequency roll-off. This setting is appropriate for very small or highly treated rooms in which the listener is seated quite close to the loudspeakers. It is also recommended for all rooms when the receiver is in THX processing mode. This allows THX re-equalization to operate exactly as it was intended.
...
Q: What target curve should be used when playing music? ...
A: There is no standard music target curve as there is for film content. We recommend starting with the Audyssey curve, but also trying the Flat curve. In a small room Flat could work better for some types of music.

http://ask.audyssey.com/forums/84181/entries/94162

It may be useful to note that Audyssey reference does not automatically roll-off your response. It compares you in-room response to the target curve and then shifts it up or down to meet that curve.

You may well find that your room naturally rolls off the highs more than the target curve. In this case, Audyssey will actually raise your treble.

This is the case in my room.

When I use Audyssey Flat it raises it even more, making it way too bright.

So you may be fine, but won't know until you try it.

On the other hand, I have just switched my 885 for a Denon and find Denon's implentation much better. It is nice to have some flexibility.

We don't publish the exact curve. But, I can tell you that it is –2 dB at 10 kHz and –6 dB at 20 kHz. The reason for this roll off is based on our research on the differences in listening conditions between the mixing and the home environments. In the studio, the mixer is seated near the speakers in a relatively absorbing room. That puts them inside the critical distance, which means that what they are hearing is dominated by direct sound. At home, most listening rooms have much less absorption and the relative listening distance puts the listener outside the critical distance. That means what you hear is dominated by the reverberant field. To compensate for that difference and apply the proper translation to the mix so that it sounds correct at home, we developed the high frequency roll off mentioned above.

Tech note: The critical distance is defined as the distance at which the direct sound is equal in energy to the reverberant sound. Manfred Schroeder, the German acoustician, studied this and found that the distance is proportional to the square root of the reverberation time and inversely proportional to the room volume.

I always thought that true audiophiles would always choose DIRECT mode when listening to 2 channel so the path from the receiver to the speakers wouldn't be encumbered with any colorization at all.

When it comes to "colorizing," the ROOM trumps everything. This is monstrously true for low frequencies. Audiophiles are fooling themselves if they think foregoing Audyssey room correction for a pure analog signal path gets them closer to the performance.

This is a very important point. In fact, from our database of nearly 1000 rooms we find that in order to apply the reference target, the filters have to often boost in the high frequencies. The term "roll off" is a little misleading. The resulting response has a roll off relative to flat, but that doesn't mean that a cut is necessarily being applied to the speaker response.

I don't know if I can call myself an audiophile but I am very picky when it comes to listening to SACDs and CDs. At times I like the surround and DSX modes but when I truly want to take in every bit of the music, I bypass my Integra preamp and use a tube preamp I built with stepped attenuators. I can listen for a long time this way and it is without any room correction. However there are times I wish there was room correction, a particular example is in this beautiful pieceSpanish Harlem - Rebecca Pidgeon the song begins with a bass guitar (that could sound so much better with Audyssey) and then the incredible voice and I forget about room correction. Almost every track can benefit from room correction. How I wish a player like the Oppo BDP-83 SE had built in Audyssey at least for stereo. Even the Anthems IMHO don't do justice to 2-ch stereo. I had asked Chris about Audyssey in CD players and correction in the digital domain (SEQ with HDMI) but looks like that is not going to happen anytime soon (if ever?). Also, I would like a "DSX Wide Stereo" only mode!
-Jai

All you have to do is connect your CD player via any digital connection (HDMI, SPDIF) to your Integra and you have Audyssey for 2 channels...

You are kidding right . Of course I know that Chris. You know why I am asking this. I don't want to use the DACs in the Integra.

My point exactly. Why would you demand a flat response when most people when hearing it don't find it all to their liking. Preference vs reference.

I may be wrong, as I am so often, but it seems to me that Audyssey is primarily focused on multi channel audio and if it also helps correct the room dynamics for 2 channel why would you want to do away with it?

Just got a spectrum (attached) of the front speaker pink noise. It is a 4th order filter (~=24dB drop from 2K to 4K) like you said. However I have no way of knowing if it is at a level of -30dBFS. The dB SPL on top shows a 40dB change from 39.9 (muted) to 79.9 (pink noise signal playing) though. I don't know if that delta can be used to deduce anything that would indicate if it is 70dB or 75dB(?).
I am concerned about the effect on Dynamic EQ if my meters are correct and in case Integra has a bug in how they integrated Audyssey.
Any idea how I can validate this Chris?
Thanks,
-Jai

As a relative "newbie", I have not asked a burning question so as not to appear too stupid, but here goes. Of course I have read a ton of posts about 2 channel stereo, but always wondered how does one get any BASS? I've been "assuming" these folks have "full range" speakers, large ones, with a subwoofer built into them? Since I have two mains that are closer to bookshelf size, actually 12"x12"x14", and when playing with them on "direct" or "pure", they don't produce much bass, as those modes bypass my subwoofer. So again, I'm "assuming" that on a system like mine, 2 channel stereo, is not really an option. I'm very happy with my all HDMI setup and my Rythmik subwoofer, but was curious about how other folks are using a 2 channel stereo setup, and how they get decent bass and lows? Thanks!

Hi Jai, there are no such bugs that I am aware of. The only way to really test the output level is to send it digitally to a professional measurement system such as Prism or Audio Precision and have it report the digital level in dBFS. I am not all that familiar with REW. Perhaps the folks on that forum have a way of calibrating it. Considering how many volume controls Windows has, this is not always a straightforward task. It should be doable though.

So true. It's 'whistling Dixie' to think that Onkyo will generate a FW upgrade because of this (or any) desire from a small (though vocal) subset of users.