"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 805

The test tones for the Audyssey calibration are generated in the 40.1, and once the curve is calculated it is set and is not affected by any external device inputting to the 40.1. Also, during Audyssey calibration all user settings in the 40.1 are ignored so there is nothing you can do to affect the tones or the calibration there. You can leave the EQ between your CD player and the prepro and just tweak it to taste. Or put the EQ between the 40.1 and the power amp, especially if the EQ has a bypass.
OOPS nevermind, Chris has responded.

OMG! {Edit: I apologize for thread jacking on a retail subject:-/}

WOW! Talk about forum support. Nice testing. You are indeed right, my 19' long x 13' wide x 10' high room is untreated, hopefully someday I'll correct this, hard walls and floors, not much soft material anywhere. My small 12"x12" Ohm brand speakers are a "omni" design I decided to go with, and in my budget, my Rythmik sub is perfect for apartment living with neighbors below. So I may not be a real "analog" candidate, and would certainly still want my Audyssey "CAKE". I will have a go with it, now that you prodded me and did it yourself so quickly and see if I can hear a difference from HDMI path. Thanks again, for the unexpected followup! Very nice of you.

Thanks Soundofmind for the info, very helpful.

I didn't mind the front L/R being set to 150Hz per se it's just unless I'm reading this wrong the PV1 only reaches 110 Hz - see http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/displa...rid=1694&sc=ht. I only ask if I'm reading it wrongly as the responses quoted on the B&W website don't seem (to me anyway) to be as straight forward as those quoted for the M1s.
For the PV1 it says '±3dB 21Hz – 31/110Hz adjustable (EQ at i)' however for the M1s '80Hz - 23kHz ±3dB on reference axis' - therefore I'm confused as to where the '31' comes into play.

At the end of the day I'd rather just leave it all as the auto setup intended but it's just the feeling that I'd be losing some of the sound by doing that. After all, presumably Audyssey / my AVR has set all these values based on my room acoustics / dynamics etc.

Going back to your question I reduced the crovers of the front L/R to 100 Hz and it sounds fine to me! Even since my last post though another poster has commented it's not good to reduce crossovers...

On another note, say for example I set everthing up manually - distances, speaker levels and crossovers do you think that may be a good idea in my case? I've read that it's generaly accepted that a crossover of 20Hz over the miniumum is good, therefore 100Hz for my M1s. Have checked most of the measurements and they seem pretty much spot on, it's only the levels and crossovers I could adjust much.

I have owned this equipment for 18 months and been happy with the set values it's just that I have been experiencing a slight problem with only one sort of broadcast and that was nature programs. If you had a scene where there was lots of background noise ie waves crashing the narrative would become difficult to hear however when it cut to another quieter scene it would normally be fine or occasionally boomy. This little problem has lead to me delving into all sorts of things that perhaps I shouldn't! I did post this problem on UK AV sites which didn't really lead to much so if anyone out there has any ideas I'd be keen to know what you think. I should point out that these broadcasts are predominantly on the BBC HD channel and are 5.1 sound.

Thanks everyone for reading and posting, you've already been much more help than the UK sites.

Mac, your enthusiasm and appreciation are most welcome. Just to be clear, I had done those tests some time ago and posted them in the 83 thread. I simply reposted/restated my results in reponse to your query.

The link to your sub specs is helpful and their link to the sub's "development paper" yields some cool stuff on its very unique design, and it has graphs including the the actual FR response curve of the sub on p6. Perhaps one of our experts can look this over and comment on the more technical aspects of your questions. It appears to me that yes, the sub's response certainly extends above 110 but it drops off precipitously. Overall I guess I would not be concerned about any of this, as you say that it sounds good crossed over either way, indicating the OEM did a reasonable job matching the satellites to the sub. Also, reviews of this system are positive.

NO, do not bother with manual EQ, it shuts off Audyssey.

As to unclear dialog, this can be due to a number of factors, including poor recording, poor mixing and poor diction (although with nature show narration diction should not be an issue). I am sensitive to this as I have a slight HF hearing loss that makes distinguishing sibilants difficult in a noisy environment such as what you describe. What I have found is that CC placement is very important. Ideally it should be at ear level when seated, or at least pointed to your head if not. When my CC was pushed back on a low shelf it was quite problematic for me. Performance is far improved now that it is atop the entertainment center aimed slightly downward. DynVol at evening setting can be helpful for leveling out heavy surround effects mixes. Lastly, Audyssey Flat curve (if available) in effect boosts highs slightly and that may help audibility in certain circumstances.

SoM what do you suppose this means - "31/110Hz adjustable (EQ at i)"?

Chris thanks for the clarification.

I just want to make sure I understand this right.
So If I hook up the Behringer between the 40.1 and the amp, then the mic is going to hear the effect of the external EQ as the test tones from 40.1 are going to be altered. In that case the external EQ i.e Behringer will affect the calibration right? I just want to influence the calibration as if the highs are attenuated by the room so that Audyssey will then boost the highs and the untimate effect would be to go above the reference curve.

I prefer not to leave the Behringer as I dont want Behringer to dictate the final SQ. I just want to use it to trick Audyssey during the calibration so that the highs will end up above the reference curve if not Flat.

If this would work then I can do a couple of iterations until I am happy with the high end.

Gary, ya got me. I am unfamiliar with this sub and that rather cryptic FR descriptor so was hoping others might comment. This is getting pretty esoteric rather esoteric but my initial thought was that "±3dB 21Hz - 31/110Hz adjustable (EQ at i)" refers to the different lowend rolloffs for the EQ=i, ii, iii settings (but it says EQ at i so ) and the different high-freq response when using the low pass filter.

Fortunately the LPF is irrelevent as long as the OP is using the RCA line level input per owners manual. He should be using EQ=i AFAIK.

Sorry-deleted, I misread your question as restating your original plan.

Makes me wonder if it's a crossover that can be defeated.

Pg 5 of the manual - "Fine-tuning Home theatre

With home theatre the subwoofer (LFE)
signal is a separate channel rather than an
extension of the signal to the satellite
speakers. The low-pass filter does not
operate in the line level input circuit,
because the processor provides all the
filtering for any speakers set to "small"."

Yes, if the Behringer is connected to the line out of the 40.1 and then you connect the Behringer outputs to the inputs of your external amplifier this will work.

You will have to apply a high frequency cut so that the measurements see that and apply a boost.

Keep in mind that the Behringer adds its own delay and so the distances for the L and R channels will be longer than the physical distance. If you remove it you will have to manually set the distances for those speakers. Also, make sure that the Behringer input to output level is set to unity gain otherwise you will have to deal with a level difference when you remove it.

Now that I've reread Mupi's last question and your response (Sorry for my misread of the question):

Chris, this option would alter his Audyssey curve as applied to all sources. IIRC Mupi was originally concerned just about having a "Flat" curve just for music, not film. And AFAIK he does not have the option of storing more than 1 curve.

So what is your opinion as to the option I suggested of just tweaking the HF EQ of the CD playback of music by keeping the Behr EQ between the CD and the pre/pro? Obviously it has no affect on the Audyssey curve itself. Any downside to how the boosted treble ouput from the CD would be processed by Audyssey and DynEQ?

Yes, you're right. This will affect the L and R channel curves for all content. One way to go would be to leave the Behringer in the path all the time and hit Bypass when listening to movies. The other way is to place it between the CD player and the pre inputs. In that case he will have to apply a boost. The boosted high frequency levels will be considered as part of the incoming content and processed the same way as all other content.

In either case, though, the Behringer has to be in the loop all the time so that it can be switched in and out.

Hi everyone, thanks for your comments.

So SoM, taking your comments on board would you say leaving the front L/R crossover at say 100 or 110 should to favourable as opposed to 150Hz?

I have the sub connected via the LINE IN socket (1) as per page 9 in the manual, 'Application - Home Theatre' ie just one lead straight to the sub socket on the back of the Denon.

Sub is set as follows :

Low pass frequency control (7) - was always set to 80Hz. It was set to that when new (it's even set to 80Hz in the diagram in figure 3) and B&W seemed to recommend to keep it there but I've since read the LFE material is generally upto 120Hz so have repositioned it there. Possibly the reason for 80Hz is that the sound is non-directionable at that frequency?

Phase switch (8) - set to +

EQ (9) - set to i

" Fortunately the LPF is irrelevent as long as the OP is using the RCA line level input per owners manual. He should be using EQ=i AFAIK."

" The low-pass filter does not operate in the line level input circuit "


I take it the RCA line input is the input I'm using, does this mean it doesn't matter what I set the low pass frequency control to?

Thanks again everyone.

You are the best judge of this. How does it sound each way?


Your sub setup looks fine. Just to be sure, leave the LPF on the sub set to its maximum value.

As to the best xover, let your ears be the judge. Pay attention to the bass and kickdrum when you play a good source of stereo music. This will highlight the difference in how those freqs are handled @ the 100 vs 150 xover. Is it solid, punchy, not boomy and well-localized to the front soundstage? That's what you're shooting for.

Yes that is my understanding as to your hookup so it really doesn't matter where that LPF is set on the sub. I would be tempted to crank it to max anyway, as I do on my sub which also bypasses the filter, just for good measure. 80 Hz is a standard recommendation for xover but you have the benefit of a custom, measured setting. Yes, freqs above that become more localizable, but YMMV as it depends on a number of factors including where the sub is located in relation to the fronts.

Something else you can try is running Audyssey setup with some sound absorption material in front of the speakers.

Audyssey will boost the treble, more at the top end and progressively less as freq decreases, to compensate.

You can experiment with different materials and thicknesses; I'd start with thin open celled foam.

Hi noah,

Please allow me to comment shortly:

1. Sounds like a good idea, but I would only cover the tweeters not the whole speaker, but I think this is what you also meant to say.

2. Although this solution will surely need a lot of experimenting and patients, the problem is that "fooling" Audyssey in this way will have a global effect, i.e. it will effect all inputs since there is only 1 Audyssey target curve to be saved. If I remember well Mupi only has HF problems for CD music, not for film. If this solves the problem for music it will immediately generate the next problem for film reference in the other direction (too much HF).

3. Kill me if this is silly, but I would try the following:

- hook up DVD/BD (whatever) with HDMI for film and coax/optical for music CDs, assign input for each.

- for film via HDMI let it go "as is"

- when changing inout for CD music I would start by increasing source level of that input (+5, +10 even +15 dB, respectively)! (Note: this is not a global setting, but can be done separately by each input)

- this will force Mupi to lower the master volume level, thus pushing DynamicEQ to boost highs (and lows) at a lower master vol. level (same SPL), then trim the sub level for that input to taste while enjoying new HF settings

Am I still alive?

Guys,

This is all very amusing, but let's please try not to go down a path of 2 weeks of wacky ways to fool Audyssey. That would not help anyone...

The simplest thing to try is this: run MultEQ as is and listen. You will be surprised how often the Audyssey reference curve is right for music. If after a week of listening you just think something is terribly wrong then we can revisit the tweaks.

Thanks

Chris, of course you are absolutely right, as always! Some of us may find ways to "fool" Audyssey, but no one can "fool " Chris.

I'm dead!

Here's a "wacky" solution that doesn't involve trying to "fool" Audyssey:

1. Select DPL II(X) THX Music for two-channel analog or pcm sources. This will give you the Audyssey Flat curve desired.

2. Set "Panorama" control to "Off." This will keep the front channel left and right sounds from blending with the surrounds.

3. Set the "Center Width" control to "7" which will effectively cut out the contribution from the center channel speaker.

4. Set the "Dimension" control to "-3" which will move the image as far forward to the front speakers as possible.

5. Turn the trim levels for the surround and center channel down to their minimum values. (Optional)

How will it sound? Probably like crap.

Occam's Razor says that the simplest solution is the best solution. In my opinion, the simplest solution is learn to love 2-channel music played back through DPL II(X). It really does sound great.

I was not joking about tricking Audyssey.

This sounds like a practical workaround than to cancel
the order for 40.1 and paying more to get an AVR.

I will stick with the Behringer solution. I will use it
between the 40.1 and amp only for calibration. After a
couple of iterations if I am happy with the highs I will just remove it.

Sure it changes the speaker distance etc. but I am not that picky. I dont mind if there is more HF for movies. As long I have a good solution for
2ch music I am fine as movie is only secondary to me. I just wanted one
pre-pro for both music and movies instead of having an analog pre-amp
like NAD C162 for music and another one for movies. Also I get no bass management and room correction with analog pre-amps. So I thought it is pointless to have them as a separate system. They will all be on Audiogon or ebay soon!


Looks like I am good to go with the 40.1

Will post after I get the 40.1 (backordered!)

I'm missing something here.

I am aware than running an REW sweep through an Audyssey corrected speaker will not generate a FR that looks like that which Audyssey produces. Also, based upon a lot of measurements with much more sophisticated mics and software, the attached graphs are at least wrong in the upper frequencies (used a RS meter as a mic).

All of that said, I am blown away by what this shows. The ONLY real difference of the with and without Audyssey correction is that the low end of my front right speaker is LOWERED and there appears to be no other correction at all. (The green curve is supposedly with Audyssey)

I have run two other room correction systems (Tact and SigTech) thru this speaker (a very full range Dunlavy tower speaker), and the corrected response is WAY different.

Any ideas of what I am doing wrong? I turned Audyssey on and off from the front panel of my SSP (Onkyo 885).

I told the 885 that the speaker was full range and my subs are turned off.

The 40.1 is backordered and the dealer won't let you cancel the order and pay a little more money for something he has in stock? Contact your credit card company (hopefully you used a credit card). Ask for their advice. Hell, dispute the charge with them. Quite frankly, I think the path you are taking is a big waste of time and will not give you the results you are looking for. Definitely not the best or simplest solution.

I will take a guess at what maybe wrong.
You are not using the high resolution filters for the subwoofer. If you have MultEQ at least in my experience, it did almost nothing for the sub 200Hz for the satellites. If you look back somewhere in this thread you will find my questions about this to Chris and it is expected behavior for MultEQ. I don't know what happens above 200Hz in my case with MultEQ. If what you have is XT then I would be surprised that it did not do much either. If you use your full range speakers for the subwoofer output, I am sure you will see a much better correction. Please keep us posted.
Thanks,
-Jai

Seems to me that you answered your own question: "I am aware than running an REW sweep through an Audyssey corrected speaker will not generate a FR that looks like that which Audyssey produces."

Actually they are most likely wrong in the low frequencies as well. I don't know if the RS meter is even capable of producing accurate results below 40 Hz. It is an SPL meter (RMS detector) not a mic for measuring frequency response.

If you don't have another mic, then at least take measurements with REW in the same location as where you placed the Audyssey mic and average them. That should give you a more approximate view of what MultEQ XT is doing.

Secondly, running the speakers full range means that you are not taking advantage of the 8x improvement in resolution that MultEQ XT has in the subwoofer channel. If it was my system I would cross it over just above the dip at 90 Hz and let the sub make the response really flat.

My recommendation - always works for me!