"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1004

I believe he is saying DSX results in matrixed width channels which, of course, is not true either. Also I don't know who is supposed to ordain new discrete channels. Don't hold your breath for that research and links.

Hi Gary,

I'm pretty sure from Chris' remarks quoted below that DSX doesn't use matrix processing to derive DSX channels.





Larry

I am agreeing with you! They are derived (but not matrixed) channels. I am saying the poster does not.

Hi Gary.

Yes, I know I was offering Chris' quotes to support your point. Sorry, I should have noted my agreement with you in prior my response.

Larry

It's a nice dissertation. How is i relevant to DSX?

Can someone please enlighten me.....

On my Integra 9.9 there is a setting in the menu called "THX subwoofer"...YES or NO. If Yes is selected then it offers another option for BGC. I have no interest in BGC, however...I have heard that selecting yes to "THX subwoofer" tells the Integra that your subs are flat to 20hz...and then it somehow treats the sub signal different than if you selected NO.

I had THX subwoofer set to NO before I ran Ausyssey. Is this telling the Integra to limit my sub output down low? Should I turn it on, then re run Audyssey? I know that Audyssey ignores setting when a calibration is run, but maybe this is a setting that Audyssey cannot ignore. Any thoughts?

If your sub has solid performance to 20 then say "yes" and re-run Audyssey. I don't know if that one is ignored and am only being safe. If Chris posts something based on actual knowledge then go with that.

Hi Markus,

I agree that if content was mixed to have discrete content for new wide channels with speakers at the proper angle and with the proper delay, then we wouldn't need DSX at home to experience increased AWS.

However, this is quite different than your original remark which stated that DSX required specially mixed content to be effective.


Yes, it would be helpful if Chris were to weigh in to state whether specially mixed content is needed for effective DSX. With regard to the other points you raise, as I mentioned I think it is very clear that discrete channels could obviate the need for DSX. It is equally clear from Chris' remarks that DSX doesn't use conventional matrix processing to achieve its effect.

Larry

I was referring to switching THX subwoofer to ON, and leaving BGC off. BGC is a parametric band filter that makes cuts....I don't want that on. But I am wondering if switching THX subwoofer to ON will change how my Integra 9.9 sends the signal to the subwoofer......12 db per octave rolloff, etc. Specifically I heard that the THX subwoofer set to ON will tell your AVR NOT to limit the sub signal down to 20hz. I can't verify this, but for me this is pretty important. I don't want THX subwoofer set to OFF if it will then limit the sub signal, or send the signal with an innapropriate roloff.

For example, this is from my subwoofers manual....

T
The last line there may be referring to the crossover once again, or it may referring to another setting that activates a 4th order crossover.

The Integra 9.9 is THX Ultra 2 certified, so does that mean it always uses the proper 4th order crossover regardless of the crossover frequency you select? Does it mean that it is capable of the proper 4th order crossover with the sub....IF and only IF you select THX subwoofer as YES?

It's not required or it wouldn't be working now, but giving the "artist" the ability to assign content to the DSX channels would definitely be better. The challenge would be to have Wide/High channel content reproduced correctly on non-DSX systems.

My bet is that they've worked that out and are currently evangelizing DSX to the film industry.

Jeff

Hi Markus,

Thanks for the clarification. Clearly your original statement left the opposite impression.


Yes, I see this situation as analogous to surround processing which provided a very satisfactory simulation of discrete surround back channels prior to the recent advent of 7.1 discrete channels. LOGIC7 processing has been doing an excellent job of faking discrete channels for decades.

Likewise with DSX, it offers a satisfactory interim alternative in the absence of discrete height and wide channels.

Larry

Hi Markus,
I couldn't agree more. If you're ever in LA let me know and I'll take you to the university lab where we started this research. The system in the main demo room there is 10.2 discrete. We have a library of several hours of recordings that we made ourselves as part of this research. They include the Boston Symphony and Handel and Haydn Society in Boston Symphony Hall, Duran Duran in the House of Blues, a collaboration with Herbie Hancock, another collaboration with Quincy Jones, and several others. They cover different genres and include a student-made 10.2 film.

From this work we looked for patterns in wide and height discrete content and this guided us in developing the algorithm for deriving this content from original 5.1 recordings. The method has nothing to do with matrixing. It is based on adaptive filters and correlation methods.

How does the 10.2 material sound on a 5.1/7.1 system?

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Markus' original statement suggested that DSX would be more effective with specially mixed content. It didn't specifically state that specially mixed content was required for DSX to work.

Now that Markus has clarified his position, this aspect of our discussion is really moot.

If Audyssey convinced the film industry to use DSX processing in deriving extra discrete channels, folks at home wouldn't require DSX systems for that content. They would just need to install the extra speakers in the correct positions and provide the necessary amplification.

Of course, even without DSX, there is nothing preventing the industry from mixing soundtracks with as many discrete channels as supported by market demand.

Larry

I'd consider the Wide/Height channels "DSX channels" regardless of whether the content is discrete or extracted by algorithm. If Audyssey is able to get the film industry to add discrete content going forward, I doubt that much if any existing content would be remixed. I'd also be surprised if additional discrete channels are added any time soon to the media. More likely it will still be (standard) 5.1/7.1 content with the DSX being discrete only after reading and processing the meta data.

Anywho, completely guessing here.

Jeff

Exactly, I can't find may 7.1 music in the genres I like, let alone 10.2 material. I'm sure it's fantastic, but it seems it's becoming like the "Deep Color" issue, how much is out there to play? Or 3D BlueRays? Glad the technology moves forward, sad that my wallet moves backwards....

It seems like AVRs would have to provide for processing those channels also. Not just provide amplification.

Less spacious...unless you have a 7.1 with Wides.

There is no 10.2 material available. All of it is in our lab. This is an experimental format that helps us understand new generations of surround sound and study the psychoacoustics and recording techniques needed to achieve it.

Chris

I was told to contact you with an issue I'm having. So here goes. I just replaced my old onkyo receiver with the onkyo 3007. I have an ed a3-300 sub and the ed eq.2. Everything was working fine on the old setup. My receiver died so I upgraded to the 3007. Connect everything back up run audyssey and no sub output. Remove the eq2 and connect directly and the sub works. Chatted with the ed guys and we tested a couple of things and possibly the eq2 is dead so I ordered another. Meanwhile I was posting on blu-ray.com forums about this and someone over there said to bypass the eq and just use audyssey that the eq was causing this issue. So now I'm unsure if its dead or not and unsure what to do. I have one of the first run a3-300 subs and it didnt have a subsonic filter and that's why I have the eq2 so I'm afraid to not use it. What do you suggest?

Thanks

Chris,

Pardon my ignorance, but have you (Audyssey) ever thought about creating a sophisicated bass management technology that incorporates, or uses information from, MultEQ?

I think it would be really cool (and have real world value) for Audyssey to pass information about each satellite's FR into the bass management *module* so it can *better* distribute the bass.

You could actually make the *double bass* (aka LFE+Mains in Denon AVRs) a smart technology by only sending the bass that the satellites cannot actually reproduce to the subwoofer(s). This way no speaker is under utilized or asked to do something it cannot.

Just a thought. Feel free to patent my idea!

Audyssey wouldn't be causing the issue of no signal to the sub. It's got nothing to do with Audyssey. So, if there is signal in your sub without the external processor and none with it then it would point to that as the culprit. I am not familiar with that box, perhaps it is a setup issue with it. I suggest connecting it and then using the AVR internal test signal for the subwoofer to see if you can hear anything from the sub.

Thanks Doug. This was developed about 18 months ago. It does most of what you say and some more... But, none of the AVR makers want to give up control of bass management in their products so they haven't adopted it. We are still trying.