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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1005

post #30121 of 62249
8/27/10 at 8:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Thanks Doug. This was developed about 18 months ago. It does most of what you say and some more... But, none of the AVR makers want to give up control of bass management in their products so they haven't adopted it. We are still trying.

That bites.

Not that I don't want Audyssey to become extremely successful (or you extremely rich ), but I hope that Audyssey isn't ever put into a situation where it could be bought out by Denon, etc. I just get the impression that no one (AVR manufacturers mainly) *cares* as much about room correction as the management at Audyssey. I understand it's your core focus, but a large company would *probably* severely hinder your long term goals...
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post #30122 of 62249
8/27/10 at 8:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Audyssey wouldn't be causing the issue of no signal to the sub. It's got nothing to do with Audyssey. So, if there is signal in your sub without the external processor and none with it then it would point to that as the culprit. I am not familiar with that box, perhaps it is a setup issue with it. I suggest connecting it and then using the AVR internal test signal for the subwoofer to see if you can hear anything from the sub.

Alright sounds good. I keep reading everything and I just get more confused. This receiver has so many more settings than my previous and I'm just trying to get it right. Thanks for the input.
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post #30123 of 62249
8/27/10 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Can someone please enlighten me.....

On my Integra 9.9 there is a setting in the menu called "THX subwoofer"...YES or NO. If Yes is selected then it offers another option for BGC. I have no interest in BGC, however...I have heard that selecting yes to "THX subwoofer" tells the Integra that your subs are flat to 20hz...and then it somehow treats the sub signal different than if you selected NO.

I had THX subwoofer set to NO before I ran Ausyssey. Is this telling the Integra to limit my sub output down low? Should I turn it on, then re run Audyssey? I know that Audyssey ignores setting when a calibration is run, but maybe this is a setting that Audyssey cannot ignore. Any thoughts?

This is a good question, that I've never heard discussed before. Is there a definite answer about 'on' or 'off', Chris?
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post #30124 of 62249
8/27/10 at 8:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Those "home made" reflections will be missing the delays found in actual hall reflections, and probably DSX.

Excellent point. Presumably, those "actual hall reflections" are already on the recording and only need some extraction process to make them appropriately effective. While I do rely on "home made" reflections by not putting any absorption on my side walls (although they are not bare), one should realize they widen the soundstage by spurious addition.
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post #30125 of 62249
8/27/10 at 8:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

That is probably the worst case scenario. If discrete channels are available then studios should specifically mix content for those channels and not just let a "dumb" box do it for them. Unfortunately these kind of upmixing devices are already in use in multichannel productions.

If it's a dumb box, I'm sure it is still at the head of the class.
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post #30126 of 62249
8/27/10 at 9:03am
Quote:
Originally Posted by garnuts View Post

I'm only 1 year into my new obsession with home theater / audio, so many of you have a lot more knowledge in this area than I do.

I find it interesting how some of you w/o ever hearing a DSX wide set-up in person, hypothesize, theorize, and blather on about how DSX wide technology should or shouldn't be used or sound; how or where the channel information is derived, or that it's not really an important evolution in surround technology w/o hearing it. (Although I do learn a lot from all the blathering!... so no disrespect to the hypothesizers and theorizers.)

I love my DSX wide speakers using my Onkyo 707. I don't really care about the very sophisticated science behind what is coming out of the wide channels... but it sounds great! For me and my living room HT, DSX wide is a very significant improvement in the front sound stage ( an improvment I didn't know I needed until I tried it ).

The best word I can come up with is 'enveloping', the front soundstage envelopes me seamlessly from the front and sides. 90% of the time I'm using DSX wide listening modes for movies, tv, and music. For a change of pace, the other 10% I'll use THX modes which use the surround back speakers.

I still have my surround back speakers connected for a 9.2 set-up, but my 707 only will use 7.2 at one time. When I use DSX wide mode where the SB speakers are off, I cannot tell any difference from the rear surround field... it sounds the same to me. However, when I use DSX wide modes, there is a very noticeable improvement from the front.

One of these days, I'll move my SB speakers to front heights to try that out also. So for now I continue to enjoy my DSX wide speakers while learning from you guys on this forum. Since I'm not working atm, I have to resist the urge to upgrade my AVR for one that will drive 9 or 11 channels a the same time .

So for anyone considering an upgrade to an AVR with DSX technology, I doubt you will regret it.

Gary B

This is comforting news as I pulled the trigger last week on 5 new speakers for my Home Theatre, I have the Onkyo NR3007 and wanted to take advantage of the Audyssey front wide set-up as well.

Although I haven't even had time to set them up it is good to know that the expenditure may be worth it because what I had for the front L.C.R was excellant but I wanted to match all of the front 5 for the new set-up.

This as well:

Quote:


Originally Posted by Roger Dressler
Those "home made" reflections will be missing the delays found in actual hall reflections, and probably DSX.
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post #30127 of 62249
8/27/10 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Less spacious...unless you have a 7.1 with Wides.

Of that I have no doubt. I was referring to the balance of the DSX channel content when "down-mixed" into the 5.1/7.1 channels vis-a-vis the content of the overall mix. With discrete content, do you have instructions on how that is reproduced on a 5.1/7.1 system?

Jeff
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post #30128 of 62249
8/27/10 at 9:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kal Rubinson View Post

While I do rely on "home made" reflections by not putting any absorption on my side walls (although they are not bare), one should realize they widen the soundstage by spurious addition.

Depends on the directivity of your speakers. Some food for thought from Earl Geddes: http://www.gedlee.com/downloads/directivity.pdf
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post #30129 of 62249
8/27/10 at 11:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by millerwill View Post

This is a good question, that I've never heard discussed before. Is there a definite answer about 'on' or 'off', Chris?

Well, I am going to run another 12 point Pro calibration (same spots as last time) and I will select YES for THX subwoofer before the calibration. Then I will compare graphs.


IT is SOOOOOOOO annoying when they say something in the manual as vague as....if you have a THX certified subwoofer select yes. Then for the description of BGC it says it will only be available if THX subwoofer is set to YES. So is THX subwoofer just an option to give you access to BGC (makes no sense...why not just let people toggle BGC ON or OFF.) If THX subwoofer does change the sub signal why in the heck wouldn't they actually state what it does?
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post #30130 of 62249
8/27/10 at 12:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

If Audyssey convinced the film industry to use DSX processing in deriving extra discrete channels, folks at home wouldn't require DSX systems for that content. They would just need to install the extra speakers in the correct positions and provide the necessary amplification.

Of course, even without DSX, there is nothing preventing the industry from mixing soundtracks with as many discrete channels as supported by market demand.

The Digital Cinema format spec (SMPTE 428M) already defines discrete wide and height channels, and the playback hardware can support them (same means as delivering discrete 7.1 for Toy Story 3). The problem is never in showing their value, it's convincing theaters to spend more money on more gear--or finding someone else to cover the costs. There are also the extra production costs and time to consider.
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post #30131 of 62249
8/27/10 at 12:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil View Post

Chris,

Pardon my ignorance, but have you (Audyssey) ever thought about creating a sophisicated bass management technology that incorporates, or uses information from, MultEQ?

I think it would be really cool (and have real world value) for Audyssey to pass information about each satellite's FR into the bass management *module* so it can *better* distribute the bass.

You could actually make the *double bass* (aka LFE+Mains in Denon AVRs) a smart technology by only sending the bass that the satellites cannot actually reproduce to the subwoofer(s). This way no speaker is under utilized or asked to do something it cannot.

Just a thought. Feel free to patent my idea!

Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Thanks Doug. This was developed about 18 months ago. It does most of what you say and some more... But, none of the AVR makers want to give up control of bass management in their products so they haven't adopted it. We are still trying.


With AVR makers apparently holding fast to their own approaches to bass management, is the proprietary bass management technology described above currently available in a standalone Audyssey product, the Audyssey Sub EQ, for instance?


Tom
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post #30132 of 62249
8/27/10 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Hilton View Post

With AVR makers apparently holding fast to their own approaches to bass management, is the proprietary bass management technology described above currently available in a standalone Audyssey product, the Audyssey Sub EQ, for instance?


Tom

It would need to be in a receiver/processor. Putting it in a device to equalize a sub wouldn't do it. Nor would putting it in a device like the Sound EQ. Short of Audyssey bringing a pre/pro or AVR to market, the idea is not going anywhere.

Jeff

edit: Put me down for one!
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post #30133 of 62249
8/27/10 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Short of Audyssey bringing a pre/pro or AVR to market

I think it's a great idea to have a new type of device that does audio only: Receive streams via HDMI, split audio and video, pass through video directly to a HDMI out, decode audio, process it (mixing, bass management, speaker/room correction, volume) and do D/A to 8 to 13 (7.2 plus 4 height/width) analog outs. Would buy it any time.
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post #30134 of 62249
8/27/10 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

I think it's a great idea to have a new type of device that does audio only: Receive streams via HDMI, split audio and video, pass through video directly to a HDMI out, decode audio, process it (mixing, bass management, speaker/room correction, volume) and do D/A to 8 to 13 (7.2 plus 4 height/width) analog outs. Would buy it any time.

Even with "separates" we've gotten to the point where there is still a lot of redundancy. Every piece of equipment that I have that touches the video signal has video processing. I'd love to have something that only switched video and outputted it to my projector.
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post #30135 of 62249
8/27/10 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Even with "separates" we've gotten to the point where there is still a lot of redundancy. Every piece of equipment that I have that touches the video signal has video processing. I'd love to have something that only switched video and outputted it to my projector.

I have an Onkyo 885 and it has a video pass-thru option which I use (that doesn't mean, I suppose, that it might not diddle with the signal). My Oppo DVD player does all up-conversion of standard DVD's and sends 1080P to my PJ as well as sending Bluray 1080P(but passes thru the Onkyo).

I assumed that most processors had video pass-thru. Am I missing something here?
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post #30136 of 62249
8/27/10 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Hi Chris,

from your experience, would 7.1 with discrete widths offer more possibilities for content creators than the standard 7.1 setup?

Best, Markus

Yes, absolutely. This is based on our own experience, plus the fact that the discrete back surround channel introduced some years ago (in 6.1) never really caught on with the content creators. In the rare occasion that a sound is desired to be localized behind the listener, that speaker is necessary. But, considering that the number of movies that took advantage of that is so small I think the benefit of the Wides is much bigger. Of course, it's possible to have it all! Why not push forward a true discrete 11 channel format? The growing number of DSX installations should provide some evidence that people are willing to put more speakers if the experience is compelling enough.
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post #30137 of 62249
8/27/10 at 1:41pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

If discrete channels are available then studios should specifically mix content for those channels and not just let a "dumb" box do it for them. Unfortunately these kind of upmixing devices are already in use in multichannel productions.

Hi Markus,

Exactly, but that's a big IF to expect studios to mix discrete height and wide channels.

Yes, as you point out and as Chris has stated, even today most of the so-called "7.1 discrete" content that has been released uses some sort of Dolby Pro logic IIx-like processing to derive the "discrete" surround back channels. He doesn't consider those types of mixes as truly 7.1 discrete.

So the likelihood of mixes with an additional four channels that include discrete height and wide channels is very remote particularly if we preclude the use of a "dumb" DSX box to assist the dubbing/recording process.

Larry
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post #30138 of 62249
8/27/10 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audioguy View Post

I have an Onkyo 885 and it has a video pass-thru option which I use (that doesn't mean, I suppose, that it might not diddle with the signal). My Oppo DVD player does all up-conversion of standard DVD's and sends 1080P to my PJ as well as sending Bluray 1080P(but passes thru the Onkyo).

I assumed that most processors had video pass-thru. Am I missing something here?

Got the 885 myself and don't use the VP. Don't use the VP in the Oppo 83 either even on the rare occasions I watch a DVD. I use the VP in the JVC RS20.

Not sure about Markus, but I was moaning about having three video processors when I only needed one. It's a slow day at work and I feel like complaining.

Jeff
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post #30139 of 62249
8/27/10 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Even with "separates" we've gotten to the point where there is still a lot of redundancy. Every piece of equipment that I have that touches the video signal has video processing. I'd love to have something that only switched video and outputted it to my projector.

Yes, it's become pretty bad. Time for someone to do it right.
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post #30140 of 62249
8/27/10 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Yes, absolutely. This is based on our own experience, plus the fact that the discrete back surround channel introduced some years ago (in 6.1) never really caught on with the content creators. In the rare occasion that a sound is desired to be localized behind the listener, that speaker is necessary. But, considering that the number of movies that took advantage of that is so small I think the benefit of the Wides is much bigger. Of course, it's possible to have it all! Why not push forward a true discrete 11 channel format? The growing number of DSX installations should provide some evidence that people are willing to put more speakers if the experience is compelling enough.

Will Mr Holman's AES presentation include anything on those growing numbers of DSX installations?

Jeff
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post #30141 of 62249
8/27/10 at 2:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Well, I am going to run another 12 point Pro calibration (same spots as last time) and I will select YES for THX subwoofer before the calibration. Then I will compare graphs.


IT is SOOOOOOOO annoying when they say something in the manual as vague as....if you have a THX certified subwoofer select yes. Then for the description of BGC it says it will only be available if THX subwoofer is set to YES. So is THX subwoofer just an option to give you access to BGC (makes no sense...why not just let people toggle BGC ON or OFF.) If THX subwoofer does change the sub signal why in the heck wouldn't they actually state what it does?

Please let us know what you find out, as I think Chris may have missed this request. My Onkyo manual is useless as well. Features are great if you have some idea of what they do in the first place and Onkyo is as bad as the rest or worse, including their total lack of customer support. Next time I'll save up for a Denon, never owned one, decided to save a few bucks on my 906 AVR.
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post #30142 of 62249
8/27/10 at 2:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mactavish View Post

Please let us know what you find out, as I think Chris may have missed this request. My Onkyo manual is useless as well. Features are great if you have some idea of what they do in the first place and Onkyo is as bad as the rest or worse, including their total lack of customer support. Next time I'll save up for a Denon, never owned one, decided to save a few bucks on my 906 AVR.

Watched a movie with the wife. Tired, getting up with kids tomorrow. So maybe I will get to it tomorrow. Will post results. It is nice because Audyssey Pro has been pretty darn accurate in the repeatability department as far as the graphs go. So if something pops up different on the sub graphs then THX Subwoofer On\\Off is probably the Culprit. Could just be an option for those folks that have a THX Sub, so they can click an option, know that Daddy THX will take care of everything from there...and a pat on the back for snagging a THX sub. Of course we can't forget their groundbreaking BGC option. Such a personalized and complex feature.
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post #30143 of 62249
8/27/10 at 2:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gamelover360 View Post

Can someone please enlighten me.....

On my Integra 9.9 there is a setting in the menu called "THX subwoofer"...YES or NO. If Yes is selected then it offers another option for BGC. I have no interest in BGC, however...I have heard that selecting yes to "THX subwoofer" tells the Integra that your subs are flat to 20hz...and then it somehow treats the sub signal different than if you selected NO.

I had THX subwoofer set to NO before I ran Ausyssey. Is this telling the Integra to limit my sub output down low? Should I turn it on, then re run Audyssey? I know that Audyssey ignores setting when a calibration is run, but maybe this is a setting that Audyssey cannot ignore. Any thoughts?

BGC is a good idea, but I think it's not needed when you are actually measuring the sub in your room. It's a fixed solution to a problem that varies depending on the exact distance of the sub from the walls and floor. So, I guess it doesn't really matter if you have it on or off. MultEQ will measure through it either way and make the needed adjustments.
I don't know what the THX Subwoofer setting Yes or No actually does. I think it simply enables the BGC control that is only available if you have a THX sub.
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post #30144 of 62249
8/27/10 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Of that I have no doubt. I was referring to the balance of the DSX channel content when "down-mixed" into the 5.1/7.1 channels vis-a-vis the content of the overall mix. With discrete content, do you have instructions on how that is reproduced on a 5.1/7.1 system?

Jeff

We haven't worked on methods for downmixing 10.2 content down to fewer channels. The whole point of this experimental system was to show what is possible when you add more channels in the right place and with the right processing.
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post #30145 of 62249
8/27/10 at 2:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The Digital Cinema format spec (SMPTE 428M) already defines discrete wide and height channels...

Yes it does! That's because Tom Holman insisted that they add these based on the USC work on 10.2.
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post #30146 of 62249
8/27/10 at 2:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Will Mr Holman's AES presentation include anything on those growing numbers of DSX installations?

Jeff

No, I don't think so. This paper is purely on analysis of the statistics from hundreds of measured rooms.
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post #30147 of 62249
8/27/10 at 2:56pm
Does DSX also provide an alternative to Dolby PL2x for back surrounds -> therefor expanding 5.1 content to 7.1/9.1/11.1 (depending on having wide and/or height speakers as well)?

If the algorithms are so much more advanced than PL2x than certainly DSX would have benefits for generating back surrounds as well.
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post #30148 of 62249
8/27/10 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

We haven't worked on methods for downmixing 10.2 content down to fewer channels. The whole point of this experimental system was to show what is possible when you add more channels in the right place and with the right processing.

Sure. I guess that is OK if 10.2/DSX-encoded content is never played on "lesser" systems.

Jeff
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post #30149 of 62249
8/27/10 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

If Audyssey convinced the film industry to use DSX processing in deriving extra discrete channels, folks at home wouldn't require DSX systems for that content. They would just need to install the extra speakers in the correct positions and provide the necessary amplification.
Larry

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

It seems like AVRs would have to provide for processing those channels also. Not just provide amplification.

Hi Gary,

Yes, good point. The AVR/PrePro would have to decode and handle the extra channels, but they would not have to necessarily include additional DSX processing to derive the extra channels if they already were discrete.

The situation may be analogous to where AVR/PrePros use Dolby Prologic IIx to upconvert to 7.1 when the source is 5.1. In those situations when the source is 7.1 TrueHD discrete the Prologic processing is not invoked.

So in the far future if 7.1 discrete is the norm AVR/PrePros might routinely use DSX to upconvert to 11.1. In those situations where the content is already 11.1 discrete the DSX processing would not be invoked.

I'm pretty sure that Dolby TrueHD and DTS Master Audio are capable of handling 11+ channels. However, I believe that the current Blu-ray standard can not accommodate that number of channels, nor is it likely that there is sufficient capacity to store 11.1 lossless channels. It goes without saying that the current HDMI standard probably couldn't handle that much lossless bandwidth either.

Larry
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post #30150 of 62249
8/27/10 at 4:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

The Digital Cinema format spec (SMPTE 428M) already defines discrete wide and height channels, and the playback hardware can support them (same means as delivering discrete 7.1 for Toy Story 3). The problem is never in showing their value, it's convincing theaters to spend more money on more gear--or finding someone else to cover the costs. There are also the extra production costs and time to consider.

Hi Roger,

True, and likewise in the home listening arena the problem is never in showing their value to the obsessives that frequent this forum. However, I should add that there are normal consumer folks who may place a totally different benefits to cost ratio when considering the necessity of upgrading to new multichannel AVRs/PrePros, adding speakers, power amplifiers, etc.

Larry
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)