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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1099

post #32941 of 62235
11/18/10 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKVALLEJOS View Post

But is Audyssey doing its thing if the speakers are bottoming out?

If your question is, is the equalization still happening, the answer is yes. I remember Chris answering this when someone had a similar problem with highly efficient Klipschorns. The filter coefficients are calculated identically, it is just the level that is not set low enough. As JHAz suggested, the cheapest alternative may be to adjust the levels to a higher constant, 80dB or 85dB, and then apply the reverse adjustment to the input source levels.

Bill
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post #32942 of 62235
11/18/10 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Hilton View Post

Hi Rick,

I'm rather amazed by posters who suggest that getting a bigger room or getting rid of your excellent speakers is the prime solution to your problem. As Craig mentioned, there are lots of HTers who use high sensitivity speakers in rooms no bigger than yours (I'm one of them). I have been able to do this because my amplifiers allow the attenuation of each audio channel separately. I take it that your amp set-up does not permit you to do this(?).

Before I changed from a receiver with onboard amps to a separate processor and separate amplifiers, I could only level match speakers through the addition of a line level attenuator. If I understand what Pepar suggested a little earlier in the discussion, this is the solution he recommended. If you are presently unable to attenuate at the individual amp channels, maybe you could look into this idea. My dealer installed such a device in my system at the time I bought my Klipsch high sensitivity speakers (1992). Back then, I knew very little about how the attenuator worked, and still don't know much...except that it did work. This allowed me to level match all speakers even though my front mains were a duo of K-Horns with 104 db sensitivity.

I don't think you "need" a bigger room or that you "need" to get rid of your speakers (which are highly reputed). I suggest you investigate the amp attenuation path indicated by Pepar or, as a workable alternative, the calibration approach suggested by Craig. In any case, I believe you can solve this problem without resorting to drastic measures like dumping your room or your speakers.

By the way...eighteen years later, I still have my original speakers, including the K-Horns, and they are still performing well in my original theater room.

Rick, I'm confident you can find a way.


Tom

Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Rick,

You need a larger room for those very efficient speakers.

With the exception of the subwoofer, there is nothing you can do in your Integra to adjust each speaker to 75 dB since you are at the limit of your trim settings for most of your channels.

In the case of the subwoofer you can turn down the gain on the back of subwoofer.

One thing you can consider is moving your first measurement position towards the back of the room. If you are lucky this might lower the trims on the 5 channels that are maxed out. However, it may cause the trims on surround back speakers to max out. Then you will have to figure out a way to attenuate the signal going to the surround back speakers, perhaps an in-line attentuator going from the preamplier's outputs to the power ampliers might do the trick. The advantage of moving the first measurement position is that instead of having 5 maxed out channels that would require attenuation, you may only have two channels to attenuate.

Larry

Hi Tom,

Might I respectfully suggest that you lighten up a bit, my remark was clearly tongue-in-cheek.

If you actually read my response with more care you would have seen in the highlighted phrases, that I actually provided essentially the same advice that you just repeated.

Rick: I'm sorry you didn't see the value in my advice, but somehow appreciated essentially the same advice from Tom.

Larry

P.S. Rick: It's not clear to me why you seemed to totally ignore JHAz's very clever advice in posting #32891
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post #32943 of 62235
11/18/10 at 12:49pm
I have a new Denon 3311 receiver coming in a few days with MultiEq XT. I currenlty have BIC DV62 Fronts and Center, Radio Shack Optimus Pro 7, and Sony 12" sub.

The Front and Centers have a low end frequency response somewhere around 40 or 45 hz. The Optimus Pro 7 has low end frequency of 120 hz.

Is the Audyssey MultEq smart enough to see that the Front and Center can handle lower frequencies, and send say only above 80 hz to front and center (and below 80 hz to the sub for Front and Center channels.) And then Audyssey realizes that surrounds only go down to 120 hz, so maybe sends above 130 hz to the surrounds, below that to the sub?

Thanks,

Jeff
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post #32944 of 62235
11/18/10 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Tom,


Larry

P.S. Rick: It's not clear to me why you seemed to totally ignore JHAz's very clever advice in posting #32891

Because im being told that if the trims are being maxed out that this is not a good thing and should be avoided. You also suggested a larger room which really wasnt what I was looking for.........
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post #32945 of 62235
11/18/10 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey View Post

Hi Steven,
Is this a passive sub with an external amp? It looks like there is no lowpass filter and so MultEQ is measuring up to higher frequencies. Once you apply bass management (you picked 80 Hz), there is no content above 80 Hz going to the sub so you can just ignore that part of the graph.

Hi Chris,

It's an active sub(epik Empire)and I'm using the LFE input which bypasses the internal crossover.I take it that the sub's natural rolloff in the upper end is so extended that Audyssey is correcting much higher than usual because it isn't detecting the rolloff until that point and is giving the over extended measurement result.

At least I know that Audyssey is doing what it is designed to do and it's just the way the sub's rolloff extends that's causing the result.
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post #32946 of 62235
11/18/10 at 12:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Chris,

Did the "target curve" change at all with XT32? It seems like my Integra DHC-80.2 has more high frequency energy and transparency than my Onkyo Pro PR-SC885 had with XT. Maybe it's just the higher resolution of the filters, but the highs seem crisper, with more detail, and louder than before.

Just curious...

Craig

I'd think that much of that is better sound quality of the 80.2 over the 885.

Jeff
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post #32947 of 62235
11/18/10 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKVALLEJOS View Post

Thanks Jeff,
I found it. I cant believe im buying a product to lower my DB"s by 12! Its just funny to me to spend extra money to get high quality equipment than spend more to lower the signal Oh well I will give it a try

Welcome to home theater designing.

Jeff
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post #32948 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKVALLEJOS View Post

Because im being told that if the trims are being maxed out that this is not a good thing and should be avoided. You also suggested a larger room which really wasnt what I was looking for.........

Hi Rick,

As JHAz and Bill have repeatedly attempted to explain, your Integra has a feature, it's called Intellivolume, that permits you to reduce the source levels. This is equivalent to going out and buying an in-line attenuator and it will permit you to avoid maxing out your trims. And if I follow JHAz's advice correctly, it will permit you to still use Dynamic EQ without adverse effects.

Larry
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post #32949 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKVALLEJOS View Post

Because im being told that if the trims are being maxed out that this is not a good thing and should be avoided. You also suggested a larger room which really wasnt what I was looking for.........

Nobody wants to give you bad advice, but many of us seem to have different opinions. Perhaps we need Chris to address your issue directly.

Jeff
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post #32950 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ride525 View Post

I have a new Denon 3311 receiver coming in a few days with MultiEq XT. I currenlty have BIC DV62 Fronts and Center, Radio Shack Optimus Pro 7, and Sony 12" sub.

The Front and Centers have a low end frequency response somewhere around 40 or 45 hz. The Optimus Pro 7 has low end frequency of 120 hz.

Is the Audyssey MultEq smart enough to see that the Front and Center can handle lower frequencies, and send say only above 80 hz to front and center (and below 80 hz to the sub for Front and Center channels.) And then Audyssey realizes that surrounds only go down to 120 hz, so maybe sends above 130 hz to the surrounds, below that to the sub?

Thanks,

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

The bass management scheme of the AVR(Denon) will determine how the crossovers are set.Audyssey will measure how they respond in the room,but it is up to the Denon for the bass management.
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post #32951 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Rick,

As JHAz and Bill have repeatedly attempted to explain, your Integra has a feature, it's called Intellivolume, that permits you to reduce the source levels. This is equivalent to going out and buying an in-line attenuator and it will permit you to avoid maxing out your trims. And if I follow JHAz's advice correctly, it will permit you to still use Dynamic EQ without adverse effects.

Larry

This is the first time the word Intellivolume has been mentioned From what I understand that adjusts the level after running Audyssey not before, is that not correct?
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post #32952 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Nobody wants to give you bad advice, but many of us seem to have different opinions. Perhaps we need Chris to address your issue directly.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

Yes, its always helpful for Chris to weigh in.

However, do you believe that reducing the preamplifier's input source levels via Intellivolume is somehow inferior to using an in-line attenuator?

As you can see I am not trying to merely advance my earlier advice to use an in-line attenuator. If a solution is already available in the preamplifier as pointed out by JHAz and Bill why not use it?

Larry
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post #32953 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Jeff,

Yes, its always helpful for Chris to weigh in.

However, do you believe that reducing the preamplifier's input source levels via Intellivolume is somehow inferior to using an in-line attenuator?

As you can see I am not trying to merely advance my earlier advice to use an in-line attenuator. If a solution is already available in the preamplifier as pointed out by JHAz and Bill why not use it?

Larry

Thats where you had me confused, one minute your saying in-line attenuator next your saying Intellivolume. It would seem like Intellivolume would reset after running Audyssey
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post #32954 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by StevenLansing View Post

Hi Jeff,

The bass management scheme of the AVR(Denon) will determine how the crossovers are set.Audyssey will measure how they respond in the room,but it is up to the Denon for the bass management.

Hopefully then Audyssey will calculate higher frequency crossover for the surrounds, and then (hopefully) the Deono 3311 will implement a higher crossover for the rear surrounds, than for the front and center speakers in the set-up I described.

Thanks,

Jeff
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post #32955 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKVALLEJOS View Post

This is the first time the word Intellivolume has been mentioned From what I understand that adjusts the level after running Audyssey not before, is that not correct?

Hi Rick,

JHAz and Bill were referring to the generic function that some preamplifiers have that permit you to adjust the levels of the inputs of source devices. In your preamplifier Integra refers to it as Intellivolume.

Here's an excerpt from page 118 of your manual:

Quote:


IntelliVolume
With IntelliVolume, you can set the input level for each
input selector individually. This is useful if one of your
source components is louder or quieter than the others.
Use the Left and Right [<]/[>] buttons to set the level.
If a component is noticeably louder than the others, use
the Left [<] button to reduce its input level. If it’s noticeably
quieter, use the Right [>] button to increase its
input level. The input level can be adjusted from –12 dB
to +12 dB in 1 dB steps.

Lowering the input source levels is equivalent to attentuating the input levels. It has nothing to do with Audyssey, but it can be used to reduce your speaker level so that Audyssey can calibrate to reference levels in these situations with very efficient speakers.

Larry
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post #32956 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Jeff,

Yes, its always helpful for Chris to weigh in.

However, do you believe that reducing the preamplifier's input source levels via Intellivolume is somehow inferior to using an in-line attenuator?

As you can see I am not trying to merely advance my earlier advice to use an in-line attenuator. If a solution is already available in the preamplifier as pointed out by JHAz and Bill why not use it?

Larry

Hi Larry,

I probably don't know enough about Intellivolume to answer definitively. But I don't think it will lower the test tones and, if not, the trims will still be maxed requiring manual measuring ... with an inferior sound level meter .. to re-establish channel balance. Plus, how would DEQ operate correctly after doing that?

Jeff
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post #32957 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKVALLEJOS View Post

Thats where you had me confused, one minute your saying in-line attenuator next your saying Intellivolume. It would seem like Intellivolume would reset after running Audyssey

I'm with you on the confusion part. Intellivolume won't change the level of the test tones.

Chrissss???!!!!
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post #32958 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKVALLEJOS View Post

This is the first time the word Intellivolume has been mentioned From what I understand that adjusts the level after running Audyssey not before, is that not correct?

Not clear what your question is. When you run the Audyssey automatic setup, it ignores every setting in your system and decides how to correct your speakers for their in-room response. So in that sense Inteiilolume never applies until after Audyssey is run. With respect to exactly which comes first when you invoke Intellivolume after setting up your system, I don't really know the answer, but it doesn't make any difference with respect to the Audyssey speaker correction algorythms. Intellivolume changes the levels that DynamicEQ and DynamicVolume "see," so that they adjust their corrections, which take into account the differences in human hearing as a sound gets quieter (we hear less bass and a bit less treble). But the main Audyssey speaker corrections are what they are, and are the same whether you're playing with your master volume at zero or at -40, and Intellivolume has no effect on them.
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post #32959 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKVALLEJOS View Post

Thats where you had me confused, one minute your saying in-line attenuator next your saying Intellivolume. It would seem like Intellivolume would reset after running Audyssey

Hi Rick,

I sorry you are confused, just as I am sorry you misinterpreted my attempt at humor.

Yes, after reading JHAz's very clever advice I was able to appreciate why it might be a superior solution, if for no other reason than you wouldn't have to buy another device. In addition, if you follow his advice you will be able to preserve the accuracy of Dynamic EQ. Inserting an attenuator as some fixed value would in all likelihood throw off the accuracy of Dynamic EQ even though it would overcome the problem of maxing out the trims.

Intellivolume does not reset after running Audyssey. As the manual points out it is usually used to permit the user to set the volume from different source device to be about the same. However, it can also be used to help you overcome your problem of maxing out the trims.

I suggest you go back and reread JHAz's posting. Ignore the discussion of Audyssey Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset. Your preamplifier doesn't have this feature. However, you can probably still do everything he suggested by just using Intellivolume.

Larry
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post #32960 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post

Hi Rick,

I sorry you are confused, just as I am sorry you misinterpreted my attempt at humor.

Yes, after reading JHAz's very clever advice I was able to appreciate why it might be a superior solution, if for no other reason than you wouldn't have to buy another device. In addition, if you follow his advice you will be able to preserve the accuracy of Dynamic EQ. Inserting an attenuator as some fixed value would in all likelihood throw off the accuracy of Dynamic EQ even though it would overcome the problem of maxing out the trims.

Intellivolume does not reset after running Audyssey. As the manual points out it is usually used to permit the user to set the volume from different source device to be about the same. However, it can also be used to help you overcome your problem of maxing out the trims.

I suggest you go back and reread JHAz's posting. Ignore the discussion of Audyssey Dynamic EQ Reference Level Offset. Your preamplifier doesn't have this feature. However, you can probably still do everything he suggested by just using Intellivolume.

Larry

Ok I will definitly give it a try...Just called and cancelled my order for the in-line attenuators until I give this a try. Thanks guys
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post #32961 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Hi Larry,

I probably don't know enough about Intellivolume to answer definitively. But I don't think it will lower the test tones and, if not, the trims will still be maxed requiring manual measuring ... with an inferior sound level meter .. to re-establish channel balance. Plus, how would DEQ operate correctly after doing that?

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

I see your concern.

However, if we assume the worst case scenario the Intellivolume approach is still better than the in-line attenuator because, the feature is built in the preamplifier and it can be applied in 1 dB increments.

So in a worst case Rick just needs to incrementally increase the negative Intellivolume settings until none of the channels are maxed out.

This would solve his basic problem, but it might not get the levels to precisely reference level as JHAz's advice was designed to deal with.

Larry
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post #32962 of 62235
11/18/10 at 1:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I'd think that much of that is better sound quality of the 80.2 over the 885.

Jeff

Maybe "some", but the difference is so striking that it makes me wonder if some adjustment wasn't made to the target curve. Chris?
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post #32963 of 62235
11/18/10 at 2:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I'm with you on the confusion part. Intellivolume won't change the level of the test tones.

Chrissss???!!!!

Hi Jeff,

First, I'm thinking that Rick can easily test if the Audyssey test chirps are effected. If they are effected he will probably be able to overcome his maxing out the trims problem.

If not, he can always drop back to the in-line attenuator approach.

If you are referring to the internal test tones being unaffected by Intellivolume, if I understand JHAz's advice correctly that wouldn't matter because Rick would be calculating the difference in levels between the surround back speaker with Audyssey and when using the internal test tones, after all channels are balanced. This difference in level would then guide Rick in setting the Intellivolume attenuation setting to restore reference levels.

Larry

P.S. I'm thinking that if Audyssey somehow ignored the Intellivolume settings when running its test chirps, then the basic function of Intellivolume, to be able to adjust all sources to deliver the same volume, would never work while Audyssey calibration was enabled.
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post #32964 of 62235
11/18/10 at 2:20pm
Larry et al,

I guess I am just not enthused about using a cheap sound level meter and the receiver/processor test noise to channel balance a system. Personally, I would attenuate the inputs to the power amp and let Audyssey take care of everything.

Jeff
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post #32965 of 62235
11/18/10 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Maybe "some", but the difference is so striking that it makes me wonder if some adjustment wasn't made to the target curve. Chris?

My "bet" is on improved sound quality ....

Jeff
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post #32966 of 62235
11/18/10 at 2:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Larry et al,

I guess I am just not enthused about using a cheap sound level meter and the receiver/processor test noise to channel balance a system. Personally, I would attenuate the inputs to the power amp and let Audyssey take care of everything.

Jeff

Hi Jeff,

First, I'd like to say that in general I agree. Whenever I use my SPL meter to confirm that things are working about right, I always rely on the Audyssey measurements if I measure a difference of a few dB.

As I mentioned earlier I believe that Intellivolume must effect Audyssey test chirps inorder to preserve the basic function of Intellivolume while Audyssey is enabled. So for the sake of discussion, if you accept this basic assumption regarding Intellivolume, then in the worst case situation using Intellivolume will provide a means of applying a variable attenuation. So Rick would be able to increase the amount of attenuation until none of the channels were maxed out.

Where JHAz's approach is superior to a fixed attenuation is that he is suggesting a refinement in which a means of determining the approximate amount that the input source should be attenuated to restore reference levels. To do this an SPL meter is certainly better than trying it by ear.

Larry
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post #32967 of 62235
11/18/10 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
Hi Larry,

I probably don't know enough about Intellivolume to answer definitively. But I don't think it will lower the test tones and, if not, the trims will still be maxed requiring manual measuring ... with an inferior sound level meter .. to re-establish channel balance. Plus, how would DEQ operate correctly after doing that?

Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryChanin View Post
Hi Jeff,

I see your concern.

However, if we assume the worst case scenario the Intellivolume approach is still better than the in-line attenuator because, the feature is built in the preamplifier and it can be applied in 1 dB increments.

So in a worst case Rick just needs to incrementally increase the negative Intellivolume settings until none of the channels are maxed out.

This would solve his basic problem, but it might not get the levels to precisely reference level as JHAz's advice was designed to deal with.

Larry
With regards to lowering the source output to some lower value that is of course possible to do however...

Because this is bypassed when Audyssey does it's thing and in Rick's case the trims are maxed at the maximum attenuation, doesn't this tell us that the Audyssey chirps are being sensed at a volume so hi that Audyssey sets the attenuation to the maximum allowed which is still not enough.

Hence we are not really sure what the trims should be since more may be needed?

I have speakers that are 'supposed' to be 104 dB/watt and I do not see this kind of problem on my Onkyo NR3007... IIRC Ricks is a pre/pro set up right? If so then if Audyssey cannot apply enough correction on it's own then the last resort would be to attenuate the lines between the pre outs and the main amplifier.
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post #32968 of 62235
11/18/10 at 5:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post
I'm with you on the confusion part. Intellivolume won't change the level of the test tones.

Chrissss???!!!!
No, it won't. It is a gain control applied to the input (as far as I know). So, it has nothing to do with the output level.
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post #32969 of 62235
11/18/10 at 5:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post
Chris,

Did the "target curve" change at all with XT32? It seems like my Integra DHC-80.2 has more high frequency energy and transparency than my Onkyo Pro PR-SC885 had with XT. Maybe it's just the higher resolution of the filters, but the highs seem crisper, with more detail, and louder than before.

Just curious...

Craig
Hi Craig,
No, the target curve did not change. My suspicion is that you are hearing the effects of the much higher resolution. 32x is a really big increase.
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post #32970 of 62235
11/18/10 at 5:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by RICKVALLEJOS View Post
Because im being told that if the trims are being maxed out that this is not a good thing and should be avoided. You also suggested a larger room which really wasnt what I was looking for.........
Hi Rick,
I want to make sure we all understand what's going one here. If you have super high sensitivity speakers that produce a level that is more than 12 dB higher than reference at the listening position (the adjustment limit of the AVR), then there is no magic solution that Audyssey can come up with to get you to reference level... Somehow you have to trim down the levels in order to get to reference.

The problem is that you don't know how much to trim down by because you can't see what's going on beyond the -12 dB cut showing in the calculated trims.

One work-around would be to move the microphone further away--maybe behind the couch if there is no wall there. Then take a single position measurement and write down all the speaker trims calculated. Then put the mic back in the main position and start the calibration over. Once it's done you can go and enter the trim differences between the speakers manually. This will ensure that all the speakers are playing at the same level. Then turn down the master volume to bring the system to reference level. Complicated, I know, but short of padding down the speakers I don't know of any other way to do this.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)