"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1325

Originally Posted by Toadus

Hurk -

I have a 7.1 setup and have tried DSX with 5.1 + Wides and 5.1 + Heights. I tried the Wide setup first, and after about a week or two, I found myself going back to a traditional 7.1 speaker placement. I liked the vastly increased soundstage of the Wide speaker setup, but it was like the surround speakers were almost turned off, and I could hear a lot of sounds which used to come out from the surrounds, now coming out from the Wides. I didn't like this, and it also made ambient sounds much easier for my ears to pinpoint.

I decided to give the DSX Heights / PLIIz Height a go, and found myself going for Dolby, hands down. Like with the DSX Wide setup, I found the Surround speakers too quiet. Switching to DPLIIz was much more pleasing for my ears. It wasn't just a volume thing, there seemed to be a big difference in what was coming from all the speakers. Here's some examples:

LOTR: Return of the King - There's a scence where a guy on hourseback comes from behind the camera, then into the troops in front of the camera. In PLIIz, you can hear the rider coming from a distance behind you, and then gallops - what appears to be - right by your right shoulder, and then into the front. It's a really great feeling and certainly gives the "wow" factor. Strangley, in DSX mode, you barely hear he rider coming. In fact, it sounds more like it's from the side than anything else, and you certainly don't get the feeling of the rider rushing right by your side. I found with PLIIz, there's numerous scenes in films where it makes certain surround sounds feel like they're RIGHT next to you and I just don't get this with DSX.

Originally Posted by Hurk

I have the Onkyo 5008 and have just added the Heights, room seems to be to narrow for the Wides. Since running Audyssey DSX I have noticed that the Surrounds are now lacking details compaired to DD 5.1. I upped the surround level by 5 dbs but still seem to be lost, they are on but seem to be overpowered by the front speakers? The Heights sound great but I miss the side surrounds. Any suggestions?

Hurk

Originally Posted by streetsmart88

My sense is also that with DSX, it is much harder to "localize" the surrounds (sides and back). However, perhaps this is exactly what DSX is trying to do -- enhance Listener Envelopment by providing seamless sound coming from everywhere and yet, from nowhere in particular.

Mark

Originally Posted by Hurk

I have run Audyssey MultEq 32 numerous times and always get great results, the sound levels are spot on, (RS SL) that is not the issue. My personal preference is to hear localized sounds coming from the side surrounds, not so much anymore. I believe with the Heights, the front sound stage is now very dominant and totally overpowers the sides? Don't get me wrong the sound stage is awesome. I still hear the sides but not as much as pre Audyssey DSX. I haven't tried the DPIIz, I tried the Dolby Heights? DSX (so many sound DSP can't keep up) which I believe used 9.2 speakers (included the rears) but not much different if any from straight DSX. What seems to be the favourite for the group?

Hurk

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

AFAIK DSX doesn't make any changes to the surround channels at all so what you are experiencing is psychoacoustic - probably caused by all that extra sound coming from the front. If, as SB suggested, you try PLIIz, let us know if you find the same issues. I find a distinct difference in the soundstage presentation between DSX and PLIIz and it would be interesting to see if you do too, especially with regard to the surround channels.

Kind Regards,

Keith

Originally Posted by audyssey

Hi Larry,
DSX doesn't do any kind of steering. The surround blending involves processing of the timbre and correlation of the signals in the surround channels to improve the perceived frequency response match with the front/wide/height speakers and reduce any undesired localization in the surround speakers.

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

I changed my surround speakers for dipoles

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

Interesting. I have noticed substantial differences between PLIIz and DSX but not the effect you describe (major changes in the surrounds).

Originally Posted by LarryChanin

Hi Keith,

Whereas DSX doesn't work like Dolby Pro Logic IIx to steer sounds to the back surrounds, it is definately altering the surrounds. Like Hurk I prefer to hear localized sounds as highly directional, and ambient sounds as diffuse. I don't have a DSX setup yet, but I fear that based on Hurk's, Mark's and Chris' remarks, quoted below, it may be decorrelating the signal in the surrounds too much for certain types of directional sounds.

Larry

Originally Posted by audyssey

Hi Larry,
DSX doesn't do any kind of steering. The surround blending involves processing of the timbre and correlation of the signals in the surround channels to improve the perceived frequency response match with the front/wide/height speakers and reduce any undesired localization in the surround speakers.

Originally Posted by Roger Dressler

Cause and effect, perhaps? Toadus, are your surrounds direct radiators?

Originally Posted by Silmott

I'm a little disappointed that there seems to be no good solution for listening to music in 9.1 with heights, either with DSX, Neo, or PLIIz, no matter how I tweak the settings.

Originally Posted by Silmott

... I'm a little disappointed that there seems to be no good solution for listening to music in 9.1 with heights, either with DSX, Neo, or PLIIz, no matter how I tweak the settings.

Originally Posted by LarryChanin

Hi Keith,

Whereas DSX doesn't work like Dolby Pro Logic IIx to steer sounds to the back surrounds, it is definately altering the surrounds. Like Hurk I prefer to hear localized sounds as highly directional, and ambient sounds as diffuse. I don't have a DSX setup yet, but I fear that based on Hurk's, Mark's and Chris' remarks, quoted below, it may be decorrelating the signal in the surrounds too much for certain types of directional sounds.

Larry

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

Ah, thanks for that, Larry. I am using dipoles now as my surround speakers and I seem to be having the best of both worlds - localised sound effects when intended and a very nice overall ambient effect the rest of the time. I am wondering now if the differences I hear between DSX and PLIIz are, at least in part, caused by the differences to the surround channels? After the discussion here today I listened to Black Hawk Down and switched between DSX and PLIIz (I have them direct coded into my Harmony 1000 to make it quick and easy) and there is definitely a difference between the surround effects with DSX and PLIIz - I can't say I prefer one to the other especially but they are different. At least, I think they are - it's easy to get confused - ideally I'd like someone to do the switching for me so I could see if I could tell one from the other reliably.



That seems to be the interesing part of Chris's reply there. Depends what he means by "undesired localisation" I guess Undesired by who?

Kind Regards,

Keith

Originally Posted by streetsmart88

After this discussion, I'm beginning to think that the DSX decorrelation of the surrounds may have been so powerful that the 4 of us couldn't detect that "popping" was coming from the surrounds ... or maybe the 7 front speakers (fronts, center, wides, heights) were overpowering the surrounds.

Having said this, I still like the surrounds with DSX on. I personally don't feel that it is too decorrelated because I can distinctly detect panning from front to rear.

Mark

Originally Posted by pepar

I recently switched the wiring of my M&K SS-150 surrounds from dipole to tripole and really like the sound ... both ambient and discrete elements are presented properly. My rear surrounds are presently set for monopole operation, but I am going to relocate them (they are collocated as per THX ASA) and set them to tripole as well.

I got an added bonus switching the surrounds to tripole. Now some of the sound passes over the head of the near seat making the near surround less localizable to the near seat. And that same direct component makes the far surround more noticeable. These two differences from dipole operation have widened the sweet spot.

Jeff

Originally Posted by Patrick Murphy

Did you run Audyssey setup after the switch? From my experience with calibrating with dipoles, Audyssey sets the volume for the side surrounds louder than if they were tripole, bipole or direct firing. I think I remember this coming up before and Chris mentioning that the diffuse sound at the #1 measuring position would cause this anomaly.

Originally Posted by counsil

I have an all Def Tech setup. Other than my center and heights, all my speakers are bipole powered towers. My center and heights are timbre matched though.

DSX sounds absolutely fantastic in my basement... I do not have a dedicated HT.

The only anomaly I have noticed is that my height speakers are not localizable (when I feel they should be based on the content and other's experiences). I attribute this to the fact that my fronts and wides are bipoles and my heights aren't located at the ideal 45 degree angle (I have 8' ceilings).

YMMV,
doug.

Originally Posted by streetsmart88

However, I think that 99% of the time, there are no clearly "localizable" sounds for the Height speakers. Their main use seems to be the expansion of the soundstage. I recall that Chris said that somehow, the Heights give more depth to the soundstage.

Originally Posted by bodosom

Audyssey has been quite clear that DSX height speakers are not intended for "gimmicks" and since height is not mixed in any height to rear pan has to be a fantasy. In his interview Chris said height and wide speakers are to simulate pleasing reflections and as such shouldn't have an overly specific presence.

Originally Posted by streetsmart88

However, aren't the Wides and Heights also meant to fill in the gap between the fronts and surrounds, thereby providing more seamless envelopment *and* having a smoother pan between the front and rear speakers?

DSX doesn't do any kind of steering. The surround blending involves processing of the timbre and correlation of the signals in the surround channels to improve the perceived frequency response match with the front/wide/height speakers and reduce any undesired localization in the surround speakers.

Originally Posted by bodosom

I have no idea. There are various somewhat vague statements. Since it's a trade secret I suppose vague is appropriate.

Originally Posted by GregLee

What I think is especially nice is the way the front height speakers can lift up the dialog to seem to come from the height of my screen, even though my center speaker is physically 35" below the vertical screen center. (Well, it's a plasma, so I just can't get the center speaker in a place where most voices should come from.)

Originally Posted by GregLee

What I think is especially nice is the way the front height speakers can lift up the dialog to seem to come from the height of my screen, even though my center speaker is physically 35" below the vertical screen center. (Well, it's a plasma, so I just can't get the center speaker in a place where most voices should come from.).

Originally Posted by millerwill

Yes, I agree! I use the 'Screen Ctr Dialog' at 2 or 3; this mixes some of the Center Channel material into the Heights, something like a 'phantom center' is created with only the L and R speakers. This helps raise the dialog, since my Center Speaker has to sit below my projector screen and is thus a 20" or so below ear level (the ht of the L and R speakers).

Originally Posted by bodosom

Audyssey has been quite clear that DSX height speakers are not intended for "gimmicks" and since height is not mixed in any height to rear pan has to be a fantasy. In his interview Chris said height and wide speakers are to simulate pleasing reflections and as such shouldn't have an overly specific presence.

Originally Posted by GregLee

What I think is especially nice is the way the front height speakers can lift up the dialog to seem to come from the height of my screen, even though my center speaker is physically 35" below the vertical screen center. (Well, it's a plasma, so I just can't get the center speaker in a place where most voices should come from.)

Originally Posted by millerwill

Yes, I agree! I use the 'Screen Ctr Dialog' at 2 or 3; this mixes some of the Center Channel material into the Heights, something like a 'phantom center' is created with only the L and R speakers. This helps raise the dialog, since my Center Speaker has to sit below my projector screen and is thus a 20" or so below ear level (the ht of the L and R speakers).