"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 139

Im a Denon owner myself, but to add to this...
Does this happen with movies or just music?
Do you have all the settings in the player right?
Are you sending PCM or Bitstream?
Whats the setting for subs? LFE or LFE + main (thats Denon's settings)

I think the Oppo rep might be referring to the fact that audio bandwidth and video bandwidth are related in HDMI, so to gain extra audio bandwidth (like for SACD), you have to up the output video resolution to HD level.

However, the audio data rate is the same for 720p, 1080i, and 1080p, allowing for 8 channels of 96kHz, 24 bit data (or is it 192 kHz, I forget), so there is no difference in the audio bits transferred for any of those video resolution choices. I am thus somewhat dubious about the OP's report of increased audio quality on going to the 720p setting.

Jeff,

All this sounds reasonable. How is the bass management set up in the OPPO? It sounds like all the Integra settings are reasonable.

Chris

Perhaps the +10dB LFE boost is getting applied twice? If this is the case, then you should be able to adjust it back down on the Integra.

Thats what I was thinking...

thanks chris I have given audyssey a run as you suggested with the mic postions.

have checked on a few discs and first impressions quite happy with results. a couple of questions though as a couple of settings it has done not really sure about.

It lowered all my level settings by around 5db, apart from the sub so my denon which was calibrated before for a refernece level of 75db is now with a reference level of 70db. no major drama but curious as to why it did that ?

also for my side surrounds which are bi-poles it set the xover for 200hz ? which seems a little high ? I would think somethign liek 80hz would be mroe like it as it has set for my mono pole rears ?

I'm thinking of giving it another run jsut to see what it does second time around. jsut in case but also wondering whether I shoudl jsut manually increase the speaker levels to bring in line wiht a 75db ref level and also whether to re set manually the xover of the side surrounds for 80hz ? wondering if these manual settings will screw things up ?

also in regards dynamic eq jsut wondering on it. in what conditions would you suggest its use ?

thanks again in advance. any light you can share on this would be much appreciated

In my particular case, I was able to determine that my DI-pole speakers (infinity beta es-250) were operating out of phase continuously. That meant that down into the bass regions, the woofers didn't align or move *into* phase, so bass cancellation was occuring pretty badly, and it was setting my crossover to 150Hz, similar to yours. Since MY only option was to switch the speaker into BI-pole or monopole modes, I opted to do surgery on the speaker. On my woofer that normally plays the negative/out of phase material in DI-pole mode (which happened to be the rearward facing woofer) I swapped the two wires at the speaker itselft after carefully removing it from the cabinet. All frequencies above 2200Hz are played by the tweeters which remain out of phase, and everything below that freq. are played by the woofers (in phase). This may not be totally ideal, but I like the improved bass, and the speaker doesn't scream, "I'm over here!!" This may not be what you had in mind, just my $.02. Of course, I re-ran Audyssey with spectacular results. I'd suspect your dipole are canceling their own bass.

That seems odd. Are you measuring with an SPL meter and finding that the internal test noise plays at 70 dB (c weighting, slow on the meter)?


As lalllen3 mentioned, bipoles are wired out of phase for all drivers and so you will get cancellation in the bass. This will be even more pronounced if your first mic position is sitting at the null of the bipole pattern.


It's no problem to manually increase the level trims to get to 75 dB using the spl meter settings I mentioned above. I would not recommend moving the surround xover lower as there will be no MultEQ correction running below 200 Hz. Perhaps you could try starting the first mic position slightly forward (but still on the center line) in order to avoid being in the bipole null.


Dynamic EQ should always be on. It will adjust the MultEQ response as you listen at lower levels so that the perceived response is always the same at any volume. As you turn up the volume it adjusts less and at reference volume it is automatically turned off.

Chris

appreciate the comment lallen, however my side surrounds are bi-poles ie both the mid-bass/woofers are meant to be in phase as opposed to dipoles which have often have drivers that operate out of phase to create a null zone.. maybe your still right though that the design of the speaker in itself is in some way sending things off for the audyssey. appreciate your comment regardless. not sure what the solution if that is the case. have been very happy wiht the side peakers otherwise to be honest would not want to take a knife to them I dont think

hi chris, yes after running the audyssey, I checked with a radio shack spl meter and finding the test noise plays at 70db c weighting slow setting. it used to be 75db for ref level.


trying to get my head around this one chris. as defintely as far as I'm aware these are bi-poles with bass drivers not out of phase. possibly they are still doing funny things in phase cancellations. the side surrounds are either side of the seating position so would be right in between either surround. however not being di-poles I dont believe they create a null zone. but defintely something is going on ! be it phase cancellations or what ever resulting in the 200hz xover setting.


thanks chris. I'll increase the trims to get to 75db to get vol levels back to what they were. appreciate the advice re the surrounds and I'll leave the xover set as it is for now. will leave dynamic eq on as it appears by what you say it takes care of itself

you're right, I was thinking of dipoles as I wrote this...However, it is still possible to have nulls when two closely spaced drivers are playing the same frequency. This can happen because of comb filtering. BTW, what model are your surrounds?

Chris

My apologies, I misread your initial post, you have BIPOLES, not DIPOLES and I assumed (was leaving for work and read too fast!! LOL ) You are correct, and I don't know why you'd be getting a cancellation, unless they are miswired, or perhaps the room is causing a phase cancellation by the time the sound hits the mic.... What are the bipoles rated for freq. response @+/-dB?

Is it possible that alebonau's mic is a bit of an outlier and about 5 dB more sensitive than the design point, or is that too far out from the mean?

That would only be the LFE channel though, so it could be tested using a CD or SACD with no LFE track.

Chris and everyone else who have commented on this:
First of all, a BIG thanks go out to you!! I really appreciate it!

How is the bass management set up in the OPPO DVD player? I'll need to check over the weekend to be certain, but I'm 99% sure it is as follows (which is what Oppo recommends for high resolution audio content transmitted via HDMI):
Down-mix set to 5.1 CH
Front Speakers set to Large
Center Speaker set to Large
Surround Speaker set to Large
Subwoofer set to On
Digital Output set to Raw
HDMI Audio set to Auto
SACD Output set to PCM


fyzziks is correct about the bandwidth. A note from the Oppo users manual regarding the reason why HDMI Output Video Resolution is important, even for audio, is as follows:
NOTE
If you use HDMI to connect audio to an HDMI A/V receiver or audio processor, it is
recommended that you choose 720p or higher HDMI output resolution when playing high
resolution audio content (DVD-Audio and SACD). According to the HDMI specification, the
bandwidth available for audio is proportional to the total bandwidth used by video. At
480p/576p resolution, the HDMI specification can only support 2 channels of audio with high
sample rate (up to 192kHz), or 8 channels of audio with standard sample rate (up to 48kHz).
Depending on the capability of your A/V receiver or audio processor, if you play high
resolution audio content at 480p/576p resolution, you may get reduced audio resolution,
incomplete audio channels, or even no audio/video output at all. Choosing a high HDMI
output resolution such as 720p or 1080i allows enough bandwidth for all high sample rate
audio channels.

So I chose 1080p (initially), thinking if 720p is the minimum, 1080p will be at least equivalent, and possibly better. I know it doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but setting this to 720p does seem to take care of 80% of the problem. Hopefully Kal will be able to compare 720P versus 1080p from his Oppo 980H and comment on any differences.

As it stands now, based on what everyone is telling me, I may just have to reduce the sub level in the Integra (from -4.5 currently, to say -8) and be satisfied with that.

I have not noticed the overwhelming bass problem in movies, where the signal is also coming from the Oppo 980H to the Integra via HDMI. My time spent watching movies is minimal versus listening to music. Regardless, since the problem was so severe, I believe I would have noticed it in the half dozen movies I've watched over the last 2 months or so.

I don't have either a Bluray or HD-DVD player for comparison.

To shamus and HDTVChallenged, how would the +10dB LFE boost be getting applied twice? And please keep in mind that the overwhelming bass problem is experienced when playing music (SACD's like James Taylor's Hourglass, for example).

Thanks again to all,

Jeff

Jeff,

The fact that you don't notice it in movies is a big clue. I have mentioned this issue in past posts. Music mixes are not mixed to any specific standard. That means no SPL reference and certainly no target curve reference. The film industry has solved this with the SMPTE standards for everything from mixing room and dubbing stage conditions, reference mixing level, etc.

Many music mixes are done without bass management and so full range content is sent to all the speakers. Even if they use the highest end speakers possible, they are not realistically hearing content below 40-60 Hz. When that content gets sent to a properly calibrated subwoofer at home it can be overwhelming. So, I think this has a lot to do with what you are hearing.

Chris

I'd like to get a little more info about your take on THX post processing (without stepping on any toes here..) after say, my system has been setup with Audyssey. Is their ReEQ/Timbre Matching/Decorrelation & various theater modes something that will benefit the system on top of the calibrations established by Audyssey, or should those modes be thought of more along the lines of something that can be compared to PLIIx Movie or a similar DSP.. Until Audyssey hit the market, I pretty much figured that using whatever auto-calibrator was built-in, plus a THX mode was enough, but now it seems kind of unnecessary.. Any thoughts on benefits of still using it?

hi chris probably a brand and model you might not be familiar with. its a local australian brand Richter and the speaker model is the hydra. it has two side firing tweeters and a mid bass woofer in the centre. perhaps with the centres of the two woofers of either speaker facing each other there is some sort of phase cancelations going on.


no worries lallen, the freq spec is rated at 80-18khz +/- 3.5 db on axis @ 1m, you could be right perhaps some room effect causing a phase cancellation of some sort.


could be fyzziks. Somone else on my home forum found for their marantz 8002 with audyssey calibrated to a ref level of 81-82db as opposed to 75db ref level. as per chris though looks like not a matter of worry and can just raise all the levels appropriately to acheive 75db ref level. could be the radio shack spl meters are out to I suppose. but woudlnt imagine by that much !

Chris,

I have been trying to understand how Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ are applied. As a very brief summary, is it correct to say that when a movie is played at lower than reference level:

1) Dynamic EQ adjusts frequency response to compensate for the human perception of reduced highs and lows at lower volumes

2) Dynamic Volume adjusts volume level so that dialogue is clearer and then cuts back volume when a very loud signal is produced

As a corrollary, if you listen to movies at reference level, Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume will not be activated.

Thanks!

Streetsmart,

Your observations are right on the money. Dynamic EQ works exactly as you describe it and does nothing at reference volume. Dynamic Volume is designed to let the user set the volume control so that dialog is at the desired level. Then it gives you three choices of dynamic range. We call it low, medium, high. Denon called it Day, Night, Midnight. These modes control how much dynamic range (the difference between loudest and softest sound) you want. However, Dynamic Volume does not turn off at reference level unless you tell it to. The reason for that is that there movie content is designed for playback over extremely high dynamic range systems in very quiet playback environments. Unless you have an isolated home theater and listen at reference level, there is a need for dynamic range translation in most real-world home theaters.

Chris

It makes sense that you would be getting some sort of bass cancelation if the two woofers are facing each other, and you (the mic) are centred inbetween them.

However, as a test, why don't you do the battery test on each speaker (1.5v C or D battery). Check that each woofer moves out when the battery is correctly applied to the speaker wires. If they appear to be all in phase, then maybe run Audyssey with one of the bipoles connected to the receiver out of phase. If you get a marked improvement then maybe you should consider wiring the woofer of that speaker out of phase (and re-connect it correctly to the receiver). I know Audyssey will tell you it's out of phase, but I don't know if Audyssey will allow you to continue testing.

One thing that confuses me though. You would only get bass cancelation when the two surrounds are operating at the same time. Audyssey only tests one speaker at a time, so I don't think Audyssey would recognise that speakers that are in phase, would negatively react with each other when played together.

SVS sub owner's or any sub owner

I getting a new AVR which will have the Aydyssey cal system (currently have a Yamaha) i have read that the Audyssey calibration has a hard time correctly adjusting the sub, and some users have even turn it off because it just kills the bass that they had before Audyssey. Since I really enjoy my sub and its deep bass. i don't want to limit its dynamics by getting the wrong cal system

For some people Audyssey has given them the best sound/bass management they have ever had. Some people say the opposite. Also, keep in mind that somtimes the poor results have been caused by incorrect mic placement, etc when running Audyssey. It's best to run Audyssey (after reading as much as you can in this thread on correct testing techniques). Give yourself a few days to adjust to the new sound. If you don't like it, turn Audyssey off and do your own tweaking if you want.

thanks nordo, will check out. will hook up on of the bipoles purposefully out of phase and see what audyssey tells me. you are quite right it does only check one speaker at a time. if it picks up a speaker out of phase it should tell me but gives me the option to I retry the speaker or skip on ahead so no dramas

chris and guys, thanks very much for your posts and assistance, been very much of help

I am hoping that i'm in the best I ever heard group, but if I'm not I can see the reason to just turn off the the cal system. I know i can do alot with an SPL and AVIA disk but i'd be loosing the acoustic balancing that my room needs. If everyone could balance a room without using a auto-cal system like Audyssey or MCACC and others, those systems would not be in AVR's.

I'm a big fan of speaker calibration and feel it is needed for most HT room setups. Too many years back, I used my pink-noise generator and display and mic to adjust my EQ so i could compensate for the wood floors and bare walls and few peices of furniture in my apt (upgraded my audio first before my apt stuff.) I like a flat/netural/balanced room, I would think that most speaker buyers look at the graphic chart to see if the freq responce curves of those are kind of flat. I just want to hear those speakers they way they were made to sound, IMHO.

If I don't get that lovin feeling Audyssey is gone and I'll just try another system. But , I really hope it all goes well i've read allot about Audyssey and i think I would really benifit from it.

Hi Chris,

My Onkyo PR-SC885P does a great job for movies/HT, but IMHO just doesn't cut it for 2-channel audio listening (even using digital sources). I broke down and bought a Ayre K-1xe preamp for 2 channel (running the Main L/R from the Onkyo to the Ayre via XLR for HT). WOW - now that's what I'm talkin' about!!

It would be great to be able to use your Audyssey stand-alone processor between the Ayre and my Krell amp for the two channel signal, but the Ayre/Krell equipment "demands" use of balanced XLR connections for best sound quality (both are balanced differential designs) and the Audyssey unit is single-ended (RCA) only. Any plans to add XLR in/out on your standalone unit? Also, a bypass would be required when listening to analog (vinyl) to avoid digitizing the signal...

Funny you should ask this ... I just finished up my first 6 point Audyssey calibration on my Hsu 3.3. Things appear to have gone just fine ... not even a weird distance. The room rocks and rolls on the 16Hz pipe organ demo.

Could it be adjusted hotter? Sure. Would it be correct that way? Probably not.

The Balanced Sound Equalizer started shipping last week. It is available through the installer channel and requires a professional calibration.

Chris

Great news! I could not find anything about that on the Audyssey website (or anywhere else). When will information be available?

That's great to hear all went well, i hope i have the same experience you had.