"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 143

Were all the levels set to -3? I'm just wondering if the sub perhaps was set to a positive number.

Chris

I just ran Audyssey at 8 positions for the first time via my Onkyo 805. It detected the two front RTi10s as "Full Range" and turned Double Bass on. Their -3dB limit is 35Hz. Should I leave them there, or should I take them off of Full Range and adjust the crossover?

Hello,

Audyssey originally set the subwoofer at -9.0, and mains, center, and surround at between -2.5 and -4.0. I bumped the subwoofer up to 0.0 as I like the subwoofer set about 6db high at 81db with the Onkyo reference tones.

I have acoustical panels at first reflection points and bass traps in the corner, I can hear how audyssey smooths out the bass further.

I listen to movies at the 75db reference level (0 relative volume), but if I engage audyssey I get no where close to 105db peaks as the Onkyo 805 does not give any headroom. Axiom M22 are 8ohm 91-93db in sensitivity so should be no problem to drive.

As in my previous post when I tested an Opera track in stereo mode with Audyssey engaged it limited me to 88db peaks while without audyssey would give me 103db at 0 relative volume.

I hope there is a solution, but it seems the issue is with Onkyo's Audyssey implementation?

Exactly the point ... although the distinction between Audyssey vs. "AVR's Bass Management" is pretty much a moot point since it all falls under the catagory of "Automatic Setup." All I'm saying, is that it might not be a bad idea to go make and a manual "adjustment:" i.e. 1) Turn the subwoofer "on" (even though you don't have one.) and 2) Set the main crossover to 40Hz.

"Ratatouille," for instance, is known to have "extremely" loud bass content in the 10Hz range. The "damage" to my speakers occurred with the volume set to -(minus) 15dB from "reference." Although, I'll concede that it was probably just the proverbial last straw for that foam.

Hi
I lost a calibration microphone for a Denon AVR 3806 receiver. I do have another microphone for a Marantz SR7001. Can I use microphone from Marantz to calibrate Denon or are they incompatible? I'm gonna try when I get home tonight but was curious to see if it's even worth it.

Chris thanks for the suggestion,I will try that..........BTW what do all that Hz do? Like what is the difference between 40Hz,60Hz,80Hz? I mean what does it do?

The crossover frequency determines how much of the channel's signal will be handled by the sub. The higher the frequency, the more the sub handles.

The lower the crossover frequency, the harder your speakers will have to work and the higher the crossover frequency the easier your speakers have to work. The other point to consider is that the higher the crossover frequency, the higher the frequency of information the sub is going to handle from the various channels other than the LFE channel, and that means the more likely it is that you are going to identify the sub as a separate sound source. This is not usually a problem for crossover frequencies of 80 Hz or lower.

Ideally you want the crossover frequency low enough to ensure that you don't notice the sub as a separate sound source and high enough to help give your speakers an easier task so they don't strain or distort. That also gives the amplification in the receiver an easier task and helps prevent the receiver from overloading.

Apart from that, the only other info that may be relevant is that the musical frequency range is normally considered in octaves. You have a 12 semitone scale which repeats itself an octave higher each time the same note comes around at twice the pitch of it's previous occurrence. 40 Hz is approximately the pitch of the low E string on a bass guitar and 80 Hz is one octave higher and approximately the pitch of the low E string on a normal guitar. 40 Hz is somewhere around the top of what many people consider the low bass region while 80 Hz is around the top of what many consider the mid bass region. That may give you an idea for just where the crossover frequencies you mention are actually placed in terms of sound content.

No, you can't use the Marantz mic for the Denon 3806. They have completely different calibration curves and it will give you totally wrong results.

Chris

Dave thanks for that info,I think I know what your talking about . Why does Audyssey keep setting my speakers to 40Hz? If I understand you right if I go with 80Hz the sub will handle more the LFE but I might notice the LFE is coming from the direction of the sub,right? From fooling around with it I noticed that when I left the fronts and center to large I really liked the detail and clarity from them but the sub didnt have the same "thump". I wish there was some way I could keep that detail and clarity when set to large and 40Mz but the LFE when set to small and 80Mz?

"Why does Audyssey keep setting my speakers to 40Hz?"

If I understand correctly Audyssey does not set your speakers to anything. Audyssey test the room's acoustics, etc., and provides a set of numbers, frequencies, etc. What the receiver does with that information as in set your xover is decided by and based on the maker of the receiver. Different companies when processing a similar set of results one receiver may set the xover at 60, one at 80, etc. Audyssey just provides the information. What is done with it isn't up to Audyssey's technology. Could be wrong but if that is correct the folks to ask would be the maker of the receiver that question.

I am setting up a home theater with a Denon AVP and I am trying to select the appropriately powered amplifier for the 7.1 system.

The issue is that the I plan to replace my rear and side surround speakers in the next year.

The current speakers are rated at 250 Peak power. But the new ones will be able to handle much more power.

I have the option of purchasing a 500x3 250x4 watt amp, but a 500x7 watt amp will be better suited to the future speakers.

From my reading on this board, it sounds like Audyssey ignores the settings on the Denon AVP and builds its own settings from scratch...

So if I install the 500x7 amp and I turn down the rear and sides by 3db in the Denon, (effectively reducing the power output from 500 to 250 watts) will the Audyssey Pro Calibration process ignore this?

And secondly, if so, as the Audyssey Pro Calibration process builds its own settings will it automatically safegaurd the rear and side speakers or will it ramp right up to 500 watts and blow my speakers?

In other words, should I feel safe going ahead and purchasing the larger 500x7 amp now? or

Perhaps Chris will weigh in with a more precise answer to your first question about setting the crossover to 40 Hz but I think 2 separate things are going on.

The first is the starting frequency for the corrections that Audyssey provides and that is done above the -3 dB point that Audyssey measures for your speakers' in-room response. The reason that you keep getting the 40 Hz crossover setting is that the -3 dB point that Audyssey measures in your room for your speakers is below 40 Hz.

The second part is the actual crossover frequency. The choice of crossover frequencies is one made by the AVR manufacturer though I think crossover frequencies at 20 Hz intervals from 40 Hz on up are common to several manufacturers. I'm not certain whether it's Audyssey or the AVR manufacturer who decides to set the crossover frequency at the first frequency offered above the -3 dB point but I suspect that choice is made because it allows the speaker to work over as wide a range as it might be expected to comfortably manage given that the user has the option of changing the frequency if they have their own reasons for doing so. Setting it at the first crossover frequency above the -3 dB point gives you an important piece of information: it tells you what crossover frequency you should not go below because Audyssey will not provide correction down to the next lower crossover frequencyprovided there is onebecause that frequency would be below the speakers' -3 dB point and providing correction below that point will demand excessive output from the amplifiers and also run the risk of speaker damage from driving the speaker beyond what it can comfortably deliver.

If you leave the main speakers set to "Large", the sub still gets their frequencies below the crossover frequency, but the speakers deliver the same content as well. This is what's called "double bass". You need to set the speakers to "Small" for Denons if you want the sub to handle the bottom frequencies for a given speaker and for the speaker not to deliver those frequencies. Other receivers may use different terminology/setting methods for turning the double bass function on and off.

Things will sound tighter when you set the speakers to 'Small' because Audyssey is not providing correction for the speakers below the crossover frequency and, given the uneven nature of the room's response at those frequencies, the results from your speakers will not be good at all frequencies in that range. In fact a large part of that range may be handled quite poorly by your speakers and that can end up detracting from the system's overall performance over that frequency range. By setting the speakers to "Small" you ensure that the sub is the only speaker handling that part of the frequency spectrum and Audyssey provides correction for the sub which ensures that you will get good results from the sub's output in that part of the spectrum. That's why you get the improved detail you mentioned. The loss of "thump" is probably simply due to the fact that you're not getting extra reinforcement at those frequencies from the speakers. If you're used to bass from a system without accurate correction at bass frequencies, you may well be used to excessive bass and that's what the "double bass" setting effectively provides.

At 80 Hz you may well not notice the sub as an identifiable source. That's about the lowest frequency that some people, but not all people, can localise the sub as a source. Because of that fact, the standard recommendation is to set the speaker crossover no higher than 80 Hzprovided your speakers can deliver down to that frequency which not all speakers canbut setting it lower is certainly preferable as far as localisation goes since it ensures that you certainly won't notice any problems with localisation. As I indicated, there are amplifier power handling advantages to keeping the crossover frequency higher rather than lower so there's a tradeoff between 2 competing benefits and only you can decide which side of that tradeoff suits you best.

My advice is to set the speakers to "Small" and avoid double bass. Then run some experiments with the crossover frequencies set at 40, 60 and 80 Hz and find out where you prefer it. Audyssey/Denon set the crossover frequencies for all of my 6 channels at 40 Hz but I've discovered that I prefer the results at 60 Hz. That gives me nice tight bass with good correction for the sub while allowing the speakers to operate low enough to give them a good tonal balance (I find voices sound a little "light weight" with a lack of chest tone if I set the crossover too high) and still giving the receiver an easier run for the amplifier stages. I get perhaps a slightly greater sense of bass weight with a loss of bass definition if I run the speakers with a 40 Hz crossover though I can certainly understand some people preferring that setting. While the loss of "thump" associated with setting the speakers to "Small" may disturb you initially, I think you will adjust to it and start to appreciate the greater accuracy at those frequencies that you get as a result. Run for a couple of weeks with the speakers set to "Small" then switch back and see what you think. I think you may be surprised to find that once you get used to the sound with the "Small" speaker setting, you will definitely find it to be the preferable setting.

Folks,

I've been reading this thread with great interest. I'm up to page 88. I've learned quite a bit. Thanks much to Chris.

I've had my Onkyo 805 for a month or so now, and I'm still tweaking.

I've just been reading about putting speakers face up on the floor, posts in the #2630 range. I probably have enough room to move my couch forward from the back wall to slide in a pair of PSB Alpha Minis I have on hand in as the rear channels. I had never thought of wedging them between the wall and the couch, let alone on the floor. Would this be one of those "better than nothing" situations? How do you think Audyssey will compensate for them? They're ported in the back, and the connectors are on the back as well, so I'd have to get them off the carpet at least a little bit. If I didn't already have them, I wouldn't be asking. All I need is 60 more feet of speaker wire.

Second query. I bought a used DSP1124 planning to run Room EQ Wizard to compensate for a big bump in the bass around 40-50 Hz that remained after running Audyssey. Is anyone still using their BFDs? If so, any new hints? Remember, I'm still only on page 88...

Thanks much,

poormxdad

Onkyos set any speaker that trolls below 80Hz to "full range". I'd set them to 1.5x their -3dB point to give them a half-octave transition to the sub (which puts a good crossover point near 50Hz). This will also free up headroom on your 805, since it will offload deeper bass duties to your subwoofer. The RTi10's third driver is low-passed at 125Hz, so allowing it to just handle 50-125Hz should also make it sound a little tighter. I'd even do some critical listening with them at 60Hz and see what you think. I'm running a 705 with older RTi70 towers and 60Hz ended up being the sweet spot for me.

Just so we're clear on terms: LFE does not equal redirected bass. The subwoofer outputs redirected bass from the other channels PLUS the content of the discrete LFE channel (the .1 in 5.1/6.1/7.1). Changing system crossovers won't change the amount of LFE the subwoofer handles - just the amount of redirected bass from the other channels.

If you're talking about the original DVD version of DVE, DO NOT USE IT TO ADJUST LEVELS! The speaker test tones on the original DVE are digitally incorrect. They are neither band-limited as advertised nor at the proper level to read 75dBC at reference level. The subwoofer tone is VASTLY incorrect (by 7dBC) and is not a 40-80Hz band-limited tone, containing significant content down to 20Hz. The internal tones on the 805 are at the proper levels and should be used instead of DVE.

I'm using a PSB 200Ci as my center. It has a listed freq response of 72-20,000, with a LF Cutoff of -10dB@55Hz. What should I set as the crossover on my 805? It would be great if you'd show your math, so I could work out the same starting points for the rest of my speakers.

On a similar note, I read in another forum that the crossver set in Audyssey should be the same for all the speakers, and based on the capability of the smallest (least bass capable) speaker. I don't see that practised here. Any explanation would be reatly appreciated.

Thanks to everyone for a great forum,

poormxdad

This is pointless. It will change the accurate level balances and will not eliminate the availability of 500w output from any channel.


The only solutions are (1) using speakers that can handle the output or (2) using common sense in setting the volume control.

I would suggest actually running the Audyssey setup and seeing what the system estimates as the crossover frequency. Even though you have manufacturer specs, they may not be appropriate for your room and the position of the speaker with respect to its surroundings (e.g. bass extension by being in a cabinet). That said, if you want to follow Jeremy's 1.5 rule, you need to find the -3dB point, which might be the 72 Hz in the specs, or it might be 1.5*55Hz = 83Hz (assuming 12dB/octave rolloff). Jeremy's rule using those numbers would put the crossover at 108Hz or 123Hz, so a 110 or 120Hz crossover would be chosen. But those numbers might be a little high, because 110 or 120 Hz material going to the sub might localize it. Isn't this fun - it's probably a compromise, and you will probably end up at 80 or 100 Hz. But see what Audyssey says.

Yes, an explanation would be greatly appreciated - can you point to the post in the other forum? As you say, a single global crossover setting is not a limit we generally impose, especially when different speakers can have such widely varying bass performance within the room.

I should have posted my Audyssey results. My Onkyo 805 finds all my speakers to be "Full Range". I left it as Audyssey (and the 805) had set it up and when playing Scene 29 from The Matrix at ludicrous volumes, I believe the woofers on my PSB 500i mains were bottoming out. It sounded like a hand was slapping against the sides. Choosing 90Hz as a crossover for all the speakers got rid of the overdrive, but got me wondering about what I really should should set the crossover at for each speaker. I've learned a lot here, and the room sounds better than ever. I'm just trying to figure out those last pieces.

I can't find the article about setting all the crossovers based on the least capable speaker, but I believe I linked in from Audioholics. I understand it's all room dependent, but I've got to start somewhere. If the 805 isn't always correct in choosing "Full Range", then advice is needed.

The 805 sounds completely different than the Yamaha RX-V795 it replaced. The Yammie put out very little material from the surrounds compared to the 805, but there was more bass. Not more DEEP bass, but more bass in general. Audyssey didn't seem to like the passive sub I was using--high level connections from the receiver to the sub, then from the sub to the mains. When it tried to calibrate the right main (with the sub in the left corner of the room), I swear I saw little wisps of smoke coming from the 805, and I thought briefly the OSD had given me the finger. That made me upgrade to a Hsu VTF 2 Mk 3. What a great day. But now I've got a bump in the bass at around 50Hz the Audyssey doesn't tame. I have a Behringer DSP1124 in the bass loop now, but I may remove it and live with the Audyssey for a while. There's just not enough time in the day...

poormxdad

Well after two weeks of trying everything from switching amps to moving furniture to changing from bi-wiring to single and back again we have solved the issue I was having with the Auto-setup for Audyssey on my new Denon AVP1. It was the MIC. I have to thank HDTV CHALLENGED for suggesting this a couple days ago. While I am VERY HAPPY to have this problem solved I would think that if the MIC quality was that key to this setup then it would behoove Denon/Audyssey to make sure the Mic's supplied work as intended. To have to spend 40 hours trying to figure out this issue after spending $7,000 for a processor is a bit of a drag. I will report that with a good MIC the set-up reported my Legacy Focus mains and Silver Screen center as Large and the Mists side speakers as small (80HZ crossover) and here is a bit of a surprise the Signature 3's as small (but with a 40HZ crossover). Perhaps the quality of the MIC is still affecting the Signature 3's but a 40HZ crossover is within reason. Once I have the pro calibration done (and I am sure the Mic's are much better quality) I will bet those are identified as large as well. In any case thanks to Chris for all his help in trying to solve this issue. I would suggest (as I did to Paul Magee) that the first thing to suggest to someone with these issues moving forward is to try a different MIC. Now for the first time since I bought this processor I am off to watch a movie!

Thanks!

Do you have any suggestions for crossover points for the remaining speakers?

I currently have the CSi A4 at 60Hz and the FXi A4s at 80Hz.

David thanks for that detail explanation,I will try that and see which we like. Jeremy thanks for your info to.

Well after two weeks of frustration I finally had a chance to spend a few hours with the Denon AVP1/Audyssey room correction and all I can say is it is the best sound I have ever heard in my listening room. I am coming from a Lexicon MC12B w/rm eq. I do not know how much of the sound quality difference is the HDMI 1.3's ability to play the uncompressed tracks on Blu-Ray and music on SACD's with the room correction versus the Lex's having to play the compressed tracks on movies and using analog bypass for SACD's (and thus bypassing room correction,etc.) but the difference is not subtle. If you wear glasses it is equivalent to when you go to have your prescription updated at the end of 3 years. You immediately notice the difference in focus. The sound is very enveloping,airy, and with great detail. All the subtle nuances are there, as is the bass. It took two weeks but it was worth it.

Aside from the fine explanation of David, I think that there is one other important reason, peculiar to Audyssey MultEQ XT, for setting the speakers to "Small" (thus letting the sub handle frequencies below the crossover point) and for raising the crossover point (say to 80 hz, instead of 60 hz, thus giving more work to the sub).

Chris has pointed out several times that Audyssey MultEQ XT has 8 times more resolution (or sampling points) for the sub, as compared to the main speakers. This means that for a given frequency range, between the sub and the main speakers, the output of the sub will be more accurate because of that 8 times more resolution from Audyssey.

OK, a couple of points:
1. If you haven't already, you might want to set your crossovers up to 80 Hz, so that the bass below that gets handled by the sub channel - the sub channel in Audyssey has better resolution than the others, and so can often handle a bass peak that isn't well handled by the fronts.
2. You can also use the Behringer to try to decrease the power at the 50 Hz resonance, then run Audyssey with the Behringer in the system, and see how that works for you.

Hi,

There are a few things to clear up here. First of all, this is not how power in amplifiers works. An amplifier rated for 500 W per channel is not putting out 500 W of power continuously. The amount of power it puts out depends on the incoming signal amplitude (voltage) and the frequency-dependent impedance of the speakers. The power output varies continuously with time as the signal changes. Think of the 500 W number as the max (actually the rms) capability.

It is a common misconception that high power rated amplifiers can damage speakers. It's actually the other way around. A 10 W amp driven to its max capability can easily damage a speaker because it is operating at max power and thus highest distortion.

The trim level settings in the pre-pro have nothing to do with the power capability of the amplifier. Think of driving a car. The max number on the speedometer is 200 mph. But you drive at 60 mph. Slowing down by half (3 dB) puts you at 30 mph not half of the max.

The Audyssey calibration does safeguard the speakers from damage because it limits the maximum amount of boost and also does not boost at all below the measured low frequency rolloff point of the speaker.

So, if the 500 W amp makes sense for the speakers you have selected and your budget you should go ahead with it. Audyssey running in the pre-pro ahead of the amp will have no effect on how that amplifier performs.

Chris

Bumping up the sub level in the receiver is contributing to the problem. A better way to turn the sub up in your case is to do it with the analog control on the back of the sub. Not as elegant as the digital level in the receiver, but it doesn't cost you anything in headroom.

Chris

This only applies to a situation in which the pre-pro does not have the ability to set individual crossovers for each channel (or channel pair). Then you are limited to using a single crossover frequency for all speakers. But in most recent high quality receivers and pre-pros this is no longer an issue.

Chris

I don't exactly understand how bumping up the subwoofer level from -9 to 0 would reduce headroom, but I don't know all the details of how the Volume IC chip gain works. I can see that if I would increase it above 0 to a positive value it reduces the maximum volume I could dial the Onkyo 805. So MulitEQ requires 9db of headroom and on top of that if I increase a channel from say the audyssey setting -9.0 to 0.0 then it costs another 9db of headroom for a total of 18db headroom (+whatever else the receiver is using up headroom for signal processing)?

So the recommendation would be after audessy sets the levels to increase all the channels including subwoofer by the same amount to get 75db from receiver test tones as measured by a sound meter (such as Radio Shack) since the included receiver microphone is not so accurate. Then if I prefer to set the subwoofer hot, I increase the subwoofer analog volume to get there.




Thank you for this information as I was wondering why the Onkyo did not get really any louder dialed past 0.