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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1510

post #45271 of 62191
11/4/11 at 11:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I have 5 identical bookshelf monitors all around (Behringer 1020p) . My new Denon 4311CI is the first AVR I've owned that 1) allows different XO for different channels and 2) has Audyssey (XT32). Heretofore I always set XO at 80Hz. The Denon sets some of my speakers to 60 Hz (C/LS/RS), and some to 80 Hz (L/R). Not sure why it did that, but it sounds fine to me so far...

There could be loads of reasons why your XOs get set to 60Hz - the most likely is that the position of the speakers in the room is influencing the -3dB point which Audyssey uses to 'advise' the amp which then decides where to set the XO. If the speakers are near a boundary for example, then this will reinforce the lower frequencies to some extent. Raising the XOs to 80Hz is almost always a good idea for the reasons mentioned in my earlier post in reply to ZXSpeccy. IOW, I'd suggest you raise the speakers set to 60Hz to 80Hz
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post #45272 of 62191
11/4/11 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

Hey folks,

I was under the Impression that audyssey recommended 80hz XO and all speakers set to small.

Howeve, it would seem that XT32 is designed not to follow that guide and is now designed to leave the XO where the AVR sets it.

Can anyone advise me if indeed I'm better leaving my XO at default or if indeed the benefits of raiing to 80hz still exist (audyssey say they don't).

I'm just confused as we've have it drummed into us all these years from audyssey that 80hz/small is the optimal setting, thx spec also suggests this, however ever now audyssey state that if your AVR sets an XO of 40hz, leave it? Why has everything we been tought / told been changed without any actual paperwork or user guides telling us that this is thr case?

Any advice sincerely appreciated.

You want to set the satellite high pass and subwoofer low pass as high as possible. Although each satellite is MultEQ optmized when playing alone, low frequency optimization breaks down when they play together, e.g. same bass signal in left and right speaker. A high XO ensures that only a single set of optimized speakers gets to reproduce the (monophonic) signal: the subwoofer(s).
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post #45273 of 62191
11/4/11 at 11:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by krabapple View Post

I have 5 identical bookshelf monitors all around (Behringer 1020p) . My new Denon 4311CI is the first AVR I've owned that 1) allows different XO for different channels and 2) has Audyssey (XT32). Heretofore I always set XO at 80Hz. The Denon sets some of my speakers to 60 Hz (C/LS/RS), and some to 80 Hz (L/R). Not sure why it did that, but it sounds fine to me so far...

Set the XO as high as possible, i.e. before sound is perceived as coming from the sub(s).
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post #45274 of 62191
11/4/11 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There are other benefits of setting a higher XO - say 80-90Hz. It allows the speakers to perform better because they don't have so much hard work to do in the very low frequency area. There are very few speakers that can deliver 30Hz, let alone 20Hz or lower, at anything like decent SPLs. By not making this big ask of the speakers, this can have a beneficial effect on the frequencies above the XO point. It also allows the amps to work better because it hands off the heavy lifting to the amps in the sub, which are purpose-designed for their task. This means the amps in the AVR (or the external amps for the mains and surrounds) are not working flat out trying to produce high SPLs at low frequencies - it takes huge amounts of power to do that.

Prior to XT32 the advice to raise the XO to 80Hz was because the filters were much finer in the lower frequency range than in the higher frequency range. With XT32 this is not the case, but the stuff I mention above still applies, regardless.

IOW, I personally would always raise a suggested 40Hz XO to 80 or 90Hz. There may well be circumstances where some people might say not to do this but there can be no doubt that removing the strain from amp and speakers can only be beneficial.

Hi Keith,

That's exactly what I thought, however Chris suggests we not do that as it disables all the extra filters of XT32 from working (as XT32 increased the number of filters in the main/satellite speakers not the sub, like XT).

This is why I am confused, audyssey are telling me to leave my XO at 40 as that is what XT32 reported and is now configured to work at, However we (my self included) are all conditioned to think otherwise it seems counterintuitive to do so?

According to Chris, using XT32 at 80hz XO is essentially only utilising the same level of filters of XT. So those of us using 80hz XO on XT32 are infact only using it in XT Mode (essentially).

This is info i have received from conversations with Chris from Audyssey and it's gotten to the point that I'm becoming Increasingly confused

Chris stated that the XO is set by MultiEQ by checking real world rolloff for those speakers (ignoring official spec) and then filters are applied to those speakers and below 80hz is where the additional XT32 filters are (on the satellite speakers) so not to utilise them is incorrect?

Yet we all think otherwise (mainly because they all drummed it into us over the years)

I suppose I should just test them and see which I like the best, however I'd like to see official documents from Audyessy stating exactly what/how XT32 should be setup.
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post #45275 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

Hi Keith,

That's exactly what I thought, however Chris suggests we not do that as it disables all the extra filters of XT32 from working (as XT32 increased the number of filters in the main/satellite speakers not the sub, like XT).

This is why I am confused, audyssey are telling me to leave my XO at 40 as that is what XT32 reported and is now configured to work at, However we (my self included) are all conditioned to think otherwise it seems counterintuitive to do so?

According to Chris, using XT32 at 80hz XO is essentially only utilising the same level of filters of XT. So those of us using 80hz XO on XT32 are infact only using it in XT Mode (essentially).

This is info i have received from conversations with Chris from Audyssey and it's gotten to the point that I'm becoming Increasingly confused

Chris stated that the XO is set by MultiEQ by checking real world rolloff for those speakers (ignoring official spec) and then filters are applied to those speakers and below 80hz is where the additional XT32 filters are (on the satellite speakers) so not to utilise them is incorrect?

Yet we all think otherwise (mainly because they all drummed it into us over the years)

I suppose I should just test them and see which I like the best, however I'd like to see official documents from Audyessy stating exactly what/how XT32 should be setup.

if that is what Chris said, and I am not doubting your report of that, then I would like to see further clarification. Regardless of the the MultEQ filters, the fact is that if you ask the vast majority of speakers to deliver high SPLs at low frequencies, they will struggle to do so and that struggle will be reflected in poorer SQ at the frequencies above the XO. Similarly, it takes massive amounts of amplifier power to deliver reference level SPLs at low frequencies and by crossing over to the sub at 80Hz or so, you relieve your amps from having to even try. This can only create additional headroom for the rest of the FR, which has to be a good idea.

If XT32 has the same sophistication of its filters for the bass as it does for the upper frequencies, I don't see how it can "disable all the extra filters" as you say, or as Chris apparently says. Neither do I understand what "So those of us using 80hz XO on XT32 are infact only using it in XT Mode" means.
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post #45276 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

if that is what Chris said, and I am not doubting your report of that, then I would like to see further clarification. Regardless of the the MultEQ filters, the fact is that if you ask the vast majority of speakers to deliver high SPLs at low frequencies, they will struggle to do so and that struggle will be reflected in poorer SQ at the frequencies above the XO. Similarly, it takes massive amounts of amplifier power to deliver reference level SPLs at low frequencies and by crossing over to the sub at 80Hz or so, you relieve your amps from having to even try. This can only create additional headroom for the rest of the FR, which has to be a good idea.

If XT32 has the same sophistication of its filters for the bass as it does for the upper frequencies, I don't see how it can "disable all the extra filters" as you say, or as Chris apparently says. Neither do I understand what "So those of us using 80hz XO on XT32 are infact only using it in XT Mode" means.

Hey,

Basically from what I got from my discussion with Chris was that XT32 has Exactly the same level of filters in the sub as XT (that is a fact) However, XT32 has additional filters in the satellites/mains. This means by bypassing the frequencies (bass management) at 80hz from the mains to the sub (which has the exact same filters as XT) essentially wastes those filters in the satellites from being used, as XT32 will not filter frequencies below the XO Point.

I'm as confused as you, but I can categorically state that Chris recommends NOT setting XT32 to 80hz. This is what's confusing me.
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post #45277 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

According to Chris, using XT32 at 80hz XO is essentially only utilising the same level of filters of XT. So those of us using 80hz XO on XT32 are infact only using it in XT Mode (essentially).

no offense, but you are clearly NOT understanding what Chris is explaining. That conclusion is fairly nonsensical and almost certainly not what Chris intended to say. It would be helpful if you could post his precise wording (he doesn't mind) and not try to paraphrase something you don't fully understand.

as others have explained, the primary reason for the "raise the crossovers" recommendation was because in previous iterations of MultEQ, the subwoofer channel had much higher resolution filters than the satellite speaker channels. Thus, raising the crossover shifted the troublesome low freq's to the higher resolution filters on the subwoofer.

with the advent of MultEQ XT 32, the satellites now have the same filter resolution as the subwoofer, both of which are much higher than plan ol' XT, so that reason is now moot. XT32 has much more processing resources to devote to the satellites, and it thus can do a much more effective job than XT in handling the low freq's of the satellites (which is what Chris was trying to explain I assume).

however, there are still other reasons to raise the xover, as noted above by Keith and Markus.
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post #45278 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:18pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

Hi Keith,

That's exactly what I thought, however Chris suggests we not do that as it disables all the extra filters of XT32 from working (as XT32 increased the number of filters in the main/satellite speakers not the sub, like XT).

This is why I am confused, audyssey are telling me to leave my XO at 40 as that is what XT32 reported and is now configured to work at, However we (my self included) are all conditioned to think otherwise it seems counterintuitive to do so?

According to Chris, using XT32 at 80hz XO is essentially only utilising the same level of filters of XT. So those of us using 80hz XO on XT32 are infact only using it in XT Mode (essentially).

This is info i have received from conversations with Chris from Audyssey and it's gotten to the point that I'm becoming Increasingly confused

Chris stated that the XO is set by MultiEQ by checking real world rolloff for those speakers (ignoring official spec) and then filters are applied to those speakers and below 80hz is where the additional XT32 filters are (on the satellite speakers) so not to utilise them is incorrect?

Yet we all think otherwise (mainly because they all drummed it into us over the years)

I suppose I should just test them and see which I like the best, however I'd like to see official documents from Audyessy stating exactly what/how XT32 should be setup.

I feel a bit of misunderstanding here. With previous flavors of MultEQ the sub channel always had higher resolution filters than the satellite channels, but with the advent of MultEQ XT32 both channel resolution (sub + satellites) had been not only substantially increased, but are now on the same level. Therefore, the theory of putting as much contents to the sub channel having a much higher resolution filter is not valid anymore (thankfully). But the phenomenon of human hearing above/below 80 Hz (or so) did not change at all.
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post #45279 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

no offense, but you are clearly NOT understanding what Chris is explaining. That conclusion is fairly nonsensical and almost certainly not what Chris intended to say. It would be helpful if you could post his precise wording (he doesn't mind) and not try to paraphrase something you don't fully understand.

as others have explained, the primary reason for the "raise the crossovers" recommendation was because in previous iterations of MultEQ, the subwoofer channel had much higher resolution filters than the satellite speaker channels. Thus, raising the crossover shifted the troublesome low freq's to the higher resolution filters on the subwoofer.

with the advent of MultEQ XT 32, the satellites now have the same filter resolution as the subwoofer, both of which are much higher than plan ol' XT, so that reason is now moot. XT32 has much more processing resources to devote to the satellites, and it thus can do a much more effective job than XT in handling the low freq's of the satellites (which is what Chris was trying to explain I assume).

however, there are still other reasons to raise the xover, as noted above by Keith and Markus.


Hey batpig,

Here is the link to the conversation, Chris states numerous times NOT to raise the XO to 80hz while using XT32. He then explains why! Yes I simplified it, but it's essentially exactly what he said. He says time and time again DO NOT RAISE THE XO and that there is NO benefit/reason in doing so and that Audyssey DO NOT recommend raising the XO and the recommend NO changes be made (unless your an EQ or XT user)

I can't be much clearer I'm afraid?

P.s No need to be rude with your post though, it came over quite patronising, when infact I am correct in what I was saying as I only repeated Exactly what Chris from Audyssey said in that thread.

http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/2063...#post_20629302
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post #45280 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:40pm
I see Chris saying this "There is also no harm in moving the xover up to 80 Hz if you wish to do so." which is a bit different than -

Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

Chris states numerous times NOT to raise the XO to 80hz while using XT32.
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post #45281 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I see Chris saying this "There is also no harm in moving the xover up to 80 Hz if you wish to do so." which is a bit different than -

What about these for a start?

Quoted from Chris from The Audyssey thread conversation with Chris and me!

"The only change we recommend is to set speakers to Small if the AVR has decided to set them to Large (assuming, of course, that you have a subwoofer in the system)"

"The recommendation is to leave everything as MultEQ found during the measurements"

"For XT32 we recommend leaving the crossover as found in the measurements, unless this results in your AVR setting the speakers to Large"

"For MultEQ XT32 this is no longer necessary. *The sub and satellite resolution is much higher (and equal) so there is no benefit in moving the xover up to a higher frequency."
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post #45282 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:43pm
He is talking strictly in relation to Aud eq there isno benefit because the filtering limits are now the same. Note he does say there is no harm raising them to 80hz.

There are many other good reasons for raising the crossover, such as headroom, less strain on speaker amps, etc.
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post #45283 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by primetimeguy View Post

He is talking strictly in relation to Aud eq there isno benefit because the filtering limits are now the same. Note he does say there is no harm raising them to 80hz.

There are many other good reasons for raising the crossover, such as headroom, less strain on speaker amps, etc.

I never said that he said there was harm by raising it?

He states there is no benefit in raising it whatsoever and that it's not recommended? That is exactly what he wrote a few minutes ago to me?
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post #45284 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

I see Chris saying this "There is also no harm in moving the xover up to 80 Hz if you wish to do so." which is a bit different than -

I humbly think (and God save my soul if I'm wrong here) that Chris is kinda too busy over at Audyssey Labs, resulting in a reply at AskAudyssey the way he did. I will stand corrected if proven otherwise, even before anyone says!!!

But I think this well written blog of Chris holds the solution, regardless of the MultEQ flavor, be it plain MultEQ or XT or XT32.
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post #45285 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:57pm
Hi guys

Need input on my new HSU vtf-15h sub. I'm going to recal and was wondering do I set the LPF for LFE at 120Hz or 80Hz before cal. My receiver is Denon 4310CI thanks.
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post #45286 of 62191
11/4/11 at 12:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

I never said that he said there was harm by raising it?

He states there is no benefit in raising it whatsoever and that it's not recommended? That is exactly what he wrote a few minutes ago to me?

There is no benefit in relation to XT32. But as "it does no harm to raise them" there are substantial additional benefits in doing so, as several people have now pointed out, myself included.
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post #45287 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsil View Post

Hi guys

Need input on my new HSU vtf-15h sub. I'm going to recal and was wondering do I set the LPF for LFE at 120Hz or 80Hz before cal. My receiver is Denon 4310CI thanks.

120Hz. If you search in this thread, you will find at least 1,080,795 posts giving the reasons (OK, I exaggerated - but not by much).
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post #45288 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There is no benefit in relation to XT32. But as "it does no harm to raise them" there are substantial additional benefits in doing so, as several people have now pointed out, myself included.

Ok,

But my question here (and I originally asked a question) was if that's the case WHY does the creator of the technology, who just sent me a replacement mic to solve my issues with my Denon 4311ci and who has had numerous conversations with me helping resolve said issue, categorically state that there is NO BENEFIT in doing so and that it is NOT recommend that I do so.

That's all I asked! I wasn't sparking a debate here?
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post #45289 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There is no benefit in relation to XT32. But as "it does no harm to raise them" there are substantial additional benefits in doing so, as several people have now pointed out, myself included.

Actually there can be some harm in the form of a small explosion but it is likely to take out only that side of the house.
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post #45290 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

Ok,

But my question here (and I originally asked a question) was if that's the case WHY does the creator of the technology, who just sent me a replacement mic to solve my issues with my Denon 4311ci and who has had numerous conversations with me helping resolve said issue, categorically state that there is NO BENEFIT in doing so and that it is NOT recommend that I do so.

That's all I asked! I wasn't sparking a debate here?



See my post #45301.
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post #45291 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

Ok,

But my question here (and I originally asked a question) was if that's the case WHY does the creator of the technology, who just sent me a replacement mic to solve my issues with my Denon 4311ci and who has had numerous conversations with me helping resolve said issue, categorically state that there is NO BENEFIT in doing so and that it is NOT recommend that I do so.

That's all I asked! I wasn't sparking a debate here?

There is no benefit as far as Audyssey is concerned, since the changes introduced with XT32. Prior to XT32 there were significant benefits as far as Audyssey was concerned. The conclusion is that it doesn't matter now - as far as Audyssey is concerned - whether you leave the XO set to 40 or 60 or whatever, or raise it to 80. But there are substantial additional benefits to raising the XO, which have been explained at least 3 times now.
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post #45292 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

See my post #45301.

Again, I understand that...

But Chris says otherwise? Hence my confusion.

"The only change we recommend is to set speakers to Small if the AVR has decided to set them to Large (assuming, of course, that you have a subwoofer in the system)"

"The recommendation is to leave everything as MultEQ found during the measurements"

"For XT32 we recommend leaving the crossover as found in the measurements, unless this results in your AVR setting the speakers to Large"

"For MultEQ XT32 this is no longer necessary. *The sub and satellite resolution is much higher (and equal) so there is no benefit in moving the xover up to a higher frequency."
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post #45293 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

I never said that he said there was harm by raising it?

He states there is no benefit in raising it whatsoever and that it's not recommended? That is exactly what he wrote a few minutes ago to me?

Maybe no benefit from his/Audyssey's perspective, but there could be general benefits having to do with the things that have already been mentioned.
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post #45294 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Actually there can be some harm in the form of a small explosion but it is likely to take out only that side of the house.

Pah! That leaves three perfectly good sides, so who cares!
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post #45295 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:08pm
kbarnes701,
Thanks just want to make sure it was 120Hz.
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post #45296 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:10pm
It's ok,

I'm gonna stick with Chris's (audyssey) recommendation. It's his technology, he knows my exact cinema setup, my speakers, my AVR and my room acoustics. He sent me a new mic to trouble shoot some results and I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.

I'm pretty sure I trust his judgment as he has been resolving a specific issue with me over the last week or so.

I'll trust that and follow his guide lines.

Cheers.
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post #45297 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

I wasn't sparking a debate here?

I'm gonna guess that you are new to this thread.

Jeff
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post #45298 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:11pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

Again, I understand that...

But Chris says otherwise? Hence my confusion.

"The only change we recommend is to set speakers to Small if the AVR has decided to set them to Large (assuming, of course, that you have a subwoofer in the system)"

"The recommendation is to leave everything as MultEQ found during the measurements"

"For XT32 we recommend leaving the crossover as found in the measurements, unless this results in your AVR setting the speakers to Large"

"For MultEQ XT32 this is no longer necessary. *The sub and satellite resolution is much higher (and equal) so there is no benefit in moving the xover up to a higher frequency."

He "says otherwise' because he is talking about the benefits wrt to XT32, as opposed to the previous XT incarnation of Audyssey. He says so in the parts of his reply you quote above.

If you want to ignore the additional benefits to your amp and speakers and leave your XOs set where your AVR set them after measurement, then that's fine. It's your AVR.
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post #45299 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

It's ok,

I'm gonna stick with Chris's (audyssey) recommendation. I'm pretty sure I trust his judgment as he has been resolving a specific issue with me over the last week or so.

Cheers.

You'll never go wrong doing that, but now you have some other tidbits of information to research - if you are so inclined - that would allow you to form your own informed opinion, which may or may not be exactly the same.

Jeff
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post #45300 of 62191
11/4/11 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZXSpeccy View Post

It's ok,

I'm gonna stick with Chris's (audyssey) recommendation. It's his technology, he knows my exact cinema setup, my speakers, my AVR and my room acoustics. He sent me a new mic to trouble shoot some results and I'm sure he knows what he's talking about.

I'm pretty sure I trust his judgment as he has been resolving a specific issue with me over the last week or so.

I'll trust that and follow his guide lines.

Cheers.



Which recommendation, the one in his blog on Large vs. Small or the one he gave you at AskAudyssey? I'd stay with the one in the blog. YMMV. Or why not try both, leave crossovers "as is" after auto setup and then change to 80 Hz (or so) and make decision on which one to keep. Deal?
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)