"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1645

As always, thanks for the insight from the perspective of someone who actually mixes audio for a living.

Based on your last sentence I'd assume that you tend to use/prefer DEQ when watching movies at home at below Reference levels?

What volume do you usually have your home system set to for general film viewing? I can't recall if you answered this before but does Reference level in a home calibrated system sound louder than Reference in the studio? i.e. do you find yourself turning the MV down at home because -5db (or some other number) sounds closer to the loudness you heard mixing the track at the studio than Reference 0 at home?


Max

Yes.

Based on all of the curves I've seen, I don't think it's ever linear. But if mixers EQ it to what they want it to be at 85, then reproducing at 85 will duplicate what the mixer heard. Or so goes the thinking.

Jeff

On the Onkyo 5009, -4 for DTS-HD MA, -8 for Dolby TrueHD/DD/PCM on BR's... -12>-16 for broadcast DD (Directv.)

I have a live room, but I know that 0 doesn't translate, i.e. it's too loud compared to what I mixed on the titles I've had a chance to check out (i.e. "Bridesmaids," "Luck" on HBO, etc...)

Someone asked a while ago about a 4db boost for DTS-HD on THX receivers... I have consistently found that for my films, and what I think is "correct" that is indeed the case, at least on my 5009.

I use DynEQ with a -5 offset.

Yes, but that has no bearing on how the soundtrack is mixed. It only affects how the signals are carried on the master. I should qualify that by saying that because of this calibration method, the surround channels have 3 dB less headroom (taken individually) than any of the front channels. When a theatrical mix is transferred to home media, a 3dB attenuation is applied to the surround channels so that they reproduce with the same balance as in the cinema.

Don't know.... It's been the industry standard since we moved to 5.1....

85db SPL (0=-20dBfs) LCR
82db SPL LS/RS
89-91db SPL LFE.

For everyone else, I hope my comments were clear about what happens when we remaster for home on a near field with lower SPL calibration, and the subjective balance comments I made..

I don't want to create any confusion about this.

When we create these types of masters (i.e. "near field," "home video" or "home theater") the attenuation is not supposed to take place if the authoring personnel are doing their jobs properly.

And... do you tweak any trims in the Onkyo after Audyssey calibration or do you leave them as they were set?
Edit: also, do you use "Straight Decode" or any listening mode such as THX Cinema for movies?
I feel that THX Cinema "softens" the sound and takes some edge away, especially for the surrounds.

Hi FM, just to be absolutely clear on the matter, can we understand these dB values as max. values not to be exceeded by all means, or in other words are these the upper levels you gotta fit into in order to fulfil film reference levels?

How about min. levels, aka threshold of hearing for a movie mix? Is there such a lowest level specified?

And while you're here, can you/could you give us a briefing on music industry with your comments? What the heck is goin' on in regards of mixing/recording such levels "all over the map"?

No and PLIIx for 5.1>7.1.


These values define the max SPL you can get (i.e. 105db from any given main channel, etc..)

In order to be certified (i.e. get a Dolby, Datasat or SDDS license on your film) the dub stage must meet the industry standard for SPL and max output (i.e. you cannot master a Dolby show on a stage that can't SPL 0Vu to 85...)

No minimum levels... if it's important to telling the story, however, you must always consider that if the film is turned down in the theater, some information might get lost... but there is no rule about "too quiet."

Regarding music... as we all know, the song is the product, so putting your best foot forward is always the rule... Loud and compressed played great on FM, and there is still a lot to be said about OTA broadcasting as a sales tool.

One of the things that is starting to become en vogue is mastering for the different release formats, i.e. vinyl, CD and MP3/MP4.... there are various mastering engineers that are mastering and real time encoding / decoding for iTunes using AAC and tweaking to what they perceive to be perfection for the medium...

I guess the iPod is the new NS-10.

Not FM, but it seems pretty clear he's talking about calibration of the playback system (see -20dBFS reference). So with a -20dBFS signal, they have 85 dB from each front speaker, 82 from each side speaker and 89-91 dB for LFE,

Thus, max would be at 0 dBFS, 20 dB louder than the -20dBFS test tone: 105 for the fronts, 103 for each surround, 109 to 111 for LFE. FM has never stated any minimum level. Not unusual, probably, for fading out sounds (let's say a mardching band marching away) to fade into the noise floor (ie become inaudible).

Edit: I sees I'm too slow a typist . . .

I don't know whether to laugh or cry. What a great comment.

Ears are at the sides of the head and cupped forward, so sounds from front-side are perceived to be loudest.

Thank you.


Clear.


Clear again.


Not clear! Does this mean music industry can mix above 105 dB at any given main channel? Dieing to know!

Well, I just found a set up on my Onkyo 709 that sounds really good with DEQ enabled.........It's DEQ with THX Cinema (5.1 material) or DEQ with DTS NEO:6 + THX Cinema (2.0 material).

I left all speakers at reference Audyssey setup trim levels, including the sub. I set the THX settings to: Loudness Plus OFF & Preserve THX Settings NO. Then I set the Audyssey settings to: MOVIE; DEQ ON; DEQ Reference Offset 0db; Dynamic Volume OFF.

The THX mode does something to the surrounds that sounds really nice at all levels, even with them being boosting by DEQ. They never over power my dialog, like before with DEQ & Straight decoding/DPL II did. The bass boost seems about the same.

There is no standard playback or monitoring standards for music... so it goes as loud as someone wants to turn it up.. in the same way you can have a film playback at 110+ if you turn pup the MV.

We are talking about system headroom relative to how playback chains are calibrated... it's a useless discussion without a standard, of which none exists in the music industry.

Thanks FM, but still confused. For example, in my understading when you record a 1 kHz sine wave at 85 dB SPL in your studio and I have my AVR calibrated by Audyssey and put the Master Volume to 0 dB I'm supposed to hear the same 1 kHz sine wave at 85 dB SPL in my room at the MLP, aren't I?

But what about the music industry colleagues? What do they do out of standard that causes confusion and then when Audyssey chimes in with a reference level offset in 5 dB increments calls for a settlement of such offsets? How do they record/specify that 1 kHz sine wave?

I'm not dead yet, but soon gonna be! While no standard playback standards are obvious for you, it still gets me lost in the woods!

Thanks in advance, as always!

Think of it this way.... a lot of music mixers might just sit down, turn it up to what they think sounds good, and start mixing, regardless of how much headroom they have on the stereo mixing bus, or how much headroom they have left on the recorder...

What they do "out of standard" is that they have no "standard." Each studio might use a different calibration method, different monitors set at different levels to check the mix on different speakers... it's rare that mid or near field monitors are calibrated with any kind of eq or room correction (except for making sure SPL is the same for the LR, or 5.1 setups...)

Then, after the song is mixed, it is many times turned over to a mastering engineer.. each of which will be mixing on specialty equipment, much of it custom or one-offs... a lot of time, in pop, rock or R&B, the goal is to use as many bits as possible...

Again, though, that has nothing to do with max SPL.... it is only relative to how the engineers setup the monitoring system, and how much headroom the monitor control has in it.

In how it relates to Audyssey....

Many music engineers just push into their mix bus and set the monitors by ear to how loud they want it.... again, there is no standard...

Because of this, the songs are, as a generalization, printed at a much hotter level than film content (i.e. they are as loud as can be to use all available head room, and stay out of the noise floor..)

If I were to play that back on my system, it would be screaming loud.... probably close to 105db as possible for most pop/rock/RB music..

When they mixed it, they have their monitors at a level which is comfortable for them, which is probably around 65-75db SPL 0dbfs if you were to check it.... that is still plenty loud.

Since you also aren't likely to listen to music at 0 MV on a calibrated AVR, the RLO compensates for theses kind of discrepancies... I find my self listening to music around -20/-15..... hence if I used Dynamic EQ for music, I would want a RLO of -15, to not "overdo" the compensation.... in this example, if I am at -15 MV, there is no compensation, and I should have a close approximation of what the music mixer heard if he was listening on a relatively flat system, and mixing in a standard pop music work flow.

It's all a guessing game without a standard.

It took me about the last 25 pages of discussion to determine that I should use a 5dB RLO for DynEQ I could have listened to SoM who told me to do that at the outset, or just asked you... got there in the end though...

In a good way or a bad way?

Awww...my head is gettin so swelled up I may need a bigger "sweet spot".

Does this mean you have abandoned the former D Bone Curve?

I like the THX Cinema mode sometimes too - but I have loudness Plus set to ON (which automatically sets Preserve THX Settings to YES). This means that I can use a different mode such as PLIIz and DEQ kicks in (with a 5dB RLO) or when I use a THX mode, DEQ gets shut off and LP automatically kicks in. I would rather poke out my left eye with a rusty nail than use Dynamic Volume, so that is always off. I haven’t seriously tried using the Music curve (flat) with THX yet but IIRC Chris said we are supposed to.

At my usual MV setting of somewhere between -9dB and -5dB I find that there isn’t a huge difference between Loudness Plus and DEQ when the latter is using the 5dB RLO. There are some subtle differences but, as yet, I can't quantify them. Now that I have discovered (with a little help from my friends) the 5dB RLO for DEQ I am much happier with DEQ than I ever was before. My bass trim is still being boosted by +4dB as per an earlier experiment before all this DEQ malarkey started, but I suspect that it will gradually be reduced back to where Audyssey set it, over time. For now I am reveling in the extra bass oomph

I think this is the most Preference-heavy post I have ever made

LOL! When I saw that FM also used a RLO of 5dB, I actually shouted out "YES!" - out loud, just like that. A grown man....

That would be some coincidence. I'll remain skeptical for the moment.

No, my theater is still D Bone Premium 1 Certified™, but I still like to experiment. So far so good with the new set up, but the proof will be later tonight when we watch good ole fashion TV, to see if the surrounds blow up on differing sources and mix levels.


EDIT: That didn't last too long. We watched some Discovery Channel HD, and DEQ still makes the sub way too hot at -20dbish, which is the level we watch TV the most. The surrounds were better tamed by THX, but the excessive bass just muddies up the works. Back to my curve for good.

Imagine my dismay when your mention of the NS-10 prompted me to finally read up on this icon of the audio industry, only to discover this choice quote: "the NS10 better enables you to get to the nub of a mix by more accurately reproducing its fundamental time-domain information".

Not sure. Is there something unclear about the difference in the cal methods? Or why?