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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1685

post #50521 of 62261
2/17/12 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

How about this, DJ?

Yep, exactly.

I have to admit though, out of selfishness, I do not use that measurement configuration any longer.

Since I'm selfish, FR at the MLP is my priority, and I found out that I can get a good FR at the MLP, AND save myself time with a much simpler measurement method (which of course, isn't recommended by Audyssey).

I simply place the mic for position 1 at the MLP on the couch, dead center between the front L&R and ~30" from my back wall. I use a low profile boom mic placed on the cloth couch. Position 2 is measured 16" forward of 1. Position 3 is the same as position 1. Done.

The results measured at the MLP


Max

P.S. in contrast to kgveteran's graphs, Graph 2 in this post actually shows real nulls at ~150Hz and ~185Hz. In order to show a null, you need to see the graph with NO smoothing applied. It will be sharp, the dip will be deep, and it will center over a frequency. EQ will not correct it. The only way to correct a null as I mentioned in an earlier post is by a) adding bass traps to absorb and reduce the amplitude of reflected bass waves, thereby reducing the intensity of their destructive interference, b) repositioning the sub to alter the cancellation of the reflected and direct waves, c) adding subs to excite more/different room modes
LL
LL
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Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #50522 of 62261
2/17/12 at 9:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by lou99 View Post

Thanks for the tips. Can you recommend how I can accurately get a measurement between 1,2,4,5?

lou - you are WWWWWAAAAAAAYYYYYYY overthinking this. It is NOT important to be that precise in the distribution of measurement positions. You do not need to measure anything, just move it around!

simple rules of thumb, no calculators, protractors, or measuring tape needed:

1) start at the sweet spot for #1 measurement
2) stay 18" away from boundaries and reflective surfaces
3) stay within the axis of the front L/R speakers (i.e. not too wide)
4) move the mic around

the exact order and position of measurements #2-8 is not important!! the very founder and CTO of Audyssey, when he participated in this thread, was very insistent on this point.
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post #50523 of 62261
2/17/12 at 9:59am
I'd still change the layout of the room.
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post #50524 of 62261
2/17/12 at 9:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

lou - you are WWWWWAAAAAAAYYYYYYY overthinking this. It is NOT important to be that precise in the distribution of measurement positions. You do not need to measure anything, just move it around!

No, he just had a bit of confusion about MY measurement location position's numbering vs the Audyssey setup guide's mic position numbering. All is clear now.


Max
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post #50525 of 62261
2/17/12 at 10:02am
he was also asking for how to accurately measure distance between positions when using a boom stand, implying he is seeking a level of precision which is wholly unnecessary.

Quote:


Do you guys have any tips in accurately measuring distance with a boom mic stand?

Quote:


Can you recommend how I can accurately get a measurement between 1,2,4,5?

And this all started with him fretting about the fact that the spacing in the diagram in the Setup Guide isn't the same as the picture on the receiver's GUI.

I'm not sure it's controversial to assert he's overthinking this a bit
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post #50526 of 62261
2/17/12 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

They will say room gain, unless you have a picture of you doing the measurement in real time LOL

My guess is head in the sand.

I really like Audyssey, but it has flaws like everything else in the world...except here

They can't say room gain. These are measurements of the *signal* coming out of the pre/pro, not the acoustic output of the sub in the room.
Craig
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post #50527 of 62261
2/17/12 at 10:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Hardly something to lose sleep over for those of us with enough or more than enough headroom. For the folks who are on the border though, it's not so much fun.

Oh yes, very true. What I was meaning was that it seems like a fairly rare problem - this thread isn't running page after page of discussion about blown subs, like it was, for example, about the obscure theory of Dynamic EQ not so long ago. I agree entirely that if you have just had your sub blown up, and you feel Audyssey was responsible, that it will be rather high on the priority list.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Personally, I have no doubts whatsoever that the normalization process CAN definitely boost the frequencies below the F3 point of the sub. Why do I have no doubts? Because as CraigJohn's posts illustrate, Chis himself has acknowledged it.

Fair comment - but it still doesn't seem to be affecting very many people, judging by the lack of heat in the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

As we know, the lower the frequency, the more power it takes to produce the same SPL's, so I can easily imagine what would happen when someone without sufficient headroom encounters a movie like WOTW, Tron:Legacy, or any one of the movies with significant infrasonic content. If the normalization in their system has caused that boost below the F3 point, it can easily overdrive the sub, and many powered subs do NOT have HPF's or other safeguards to protect against being overdriven.

Yes, I was being selfish I guess. I don't have the problem and my subs have fantastically good overdrive protection, so even if I did, it wouldn't cause me any loss of sleep. But again, I seem to be in a substantial majority there, judging by the paucity of comment on this matter in the thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

I heard my old subs driven past their limits with 18" drivers and 'only' 400watt amps, and those subs were rated for infrasonic frequencies and even single digit Hz (Bag End Infrasubs) although they couldn't reproduce single digit Hz at greater than 75-80db. Fortunately, they were built well enough to handle being overdriven with no damage (note* I'm not saying that in my case, being overdriven was due to Audyssey or the normalization process. Just that I realized I needed more headroom).

Yes - and this, I think, is the core of the debate. People are possibly blaming Audyssey for problems when it is not Audyssey that is the cause. Your experience enables you to see the wood for the trees, but this isn't always the case with less knowledgeable people - and they may just be assuming it's an Audyssey issue when it isn't. That's all I was really getting at.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

It was knowing that I didn't have sufficient headroom specifically for THX HT use that led me to upgrade to Seaton's Submersive HP with its built-in 2400watt amp and it's ability to dig into single digit Hz at fairly high SPL's in most rooms and I can now play those infrasonic scenes at THX Reference.
Max

2400 watt amp! Respect!
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post #50528 of 62261
2/17/12 at 10:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


My view is just that I am unconvinced. Not that it is not possible for Audyssey to be blowing up people's subs, nor that it is likely. Just not convinced. Some people run Audyssey and then boost their subs by 10db from the Audyssey settings. If the sub then suffers, is that an Audyssey problem or user error?

I tend to remain skeptical also, especially when Audyssey is not here to offer explanations. You see convincing arguments that setup has been done as recommended and measurements taken by proper equipment and technique and then you see stuff like this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post


I simply place the mic for position 1 at the MLP on the couch, dead center between the front L&R and ~30" from my back wall. I use a low profile boom mic placed on the cloth couch. Position 2 is measured 16" forward of 1. Position 3 is the same as position 1. Done.
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post #50529 of 62261
2/17/12 at 10:37am
I'm sorry Gary, but the fact that Max takes three measurements instead of 8 doesn't invalidate the evidence for "normalization" boost that others have provided. There have been enough measurements from the pre-out posted to know it's a real phenomenon. Plus, does it need to be repeated again that Chris *acknowledged* that it's a normal part of Audyssey?

Markus posted some pretty convincing evidence that you aren't going to get a dramatically different FR correction based on number of positions or pattern. Your not-so-subtle jab at Max's credibility sort of falls flat.
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post #50530 of 62261
2/17/12 at 10:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I'm sorry Gary, but the fact that Max takes three measurements instead of 8 doesn't invalidate the evidence for "normalization" boost that others have provided. There have been enough measurements from the pre-out posted to know it's a real phenomenon. Plus, does it need to be repeated again that Chris *acknowledged* that it's a normal part of Audyssey?

Markus posted some pretty convincing evidence that you aren't going to get a dramatically different FR correction based on number of positions or pattern. Your not-so-subtle jab at Max's credibility sort of falls flat.

1. It's not like the few pointing out that it .. subs being stressed from the normalization process .. exists are claiming that it is rampant.
2. There are numerous quotes from Chris K that acknowledge it can happen.
3. Why is this still being flatly denied?
4. None are subtle to the regulars here.
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post #50531 of 62261
2/17/12 at 10:45am
Thank you all - I'm an engineer so I have to ask myself how in the heck can this work.... I'll take the measurements tonight. Thanks again.
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post #50532 of 62261
2/17/12 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

Markus posted some pretty convincing evidence that you aren't going to get a dramatically different FR correction based on number of positions or pattern.

Yes, I really wanted to follow up on that, but then it all got bogged down with reams of verbiage about DEQ and then he got sent to the naughty corner.

In light of Markus's experiments, it seems that half of the setup guide is irrelevant, if indeed the mic positioning/number of measurements makes so little difference. I'd guess that about 30% of this entire thread is about mic positioning in one way or another.

Personally I've never obsessed over it. I follow the guide, more or less - certainly not measuring the distance between spots or using a spirit level on the mic stand to ensure it is +/- 1 degree from the true vertical etc. Whenever I need to repeat a set of measurements I use the same positions, give or take a bit, and the calibration invariably comes out good. I do think a lot of 'overthinking' goes on.

HST, I will soon be getting the Pro kit and will have 24 *more* potential measurements to take
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post #50533 of 62261
2/17/12 at 10:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

You will find many recommendations regarding the importance of the first measurement position, which Audyssey uses to determine distances and delays for your speakers. The conventional wisdom is that the first measurement position should be exactly at the midpoint between the front left and right speakers, at ear height. With your sofa so close to the back wall, this measurement position should be a minimum of 18 inches from the wall.

So, given the first measurement position as described above, I would select the second and third positions 1 ft to the left and right, the fourth and fifth positions 2 ft to the left and right, all on the sofa at ear level. The sixth thru eighth positions can then be 12 - 18 inches in front of the line of measurements on the sofa. I would not use the measurement positions closest to the TV, as shown in your diagram.

It is also important that you have no items of furniture between the listening area and the front speakers, because things like coffee tables can reflect sound and produce flawed calibrations. You should also experiment with pointing your left and right speakers at the MLP (toe-in), and making sure your center channel speaker is adjusted so it also points directly at the listener's ears at the MLP. And finally, if the center channel speaker is in a cabinet or on a shelf, make sure it is positioned as far forward on the shelf so that the shelf boundary does not reflect sound, which can affect center channel dialog intelligibility.

Great advice thanks.
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post #50534 of 62261
2/17/12 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

I'm sorry Gary, but the fact that Max takes three measurements instead of 8 doesn't invalidate the evidence for "normalization" boost that others have provided. There have been enough measurements from the pre-out posted to know it's a real phenomenon. Plus, does it need to be repeated again that Chris *acknowledged* that it's a normal part of Audyssey?

I'm sorry batpig but I said nothing about normalization not perhaps being a problem. If you will notice I quoted something about Audyssey blowing up people's subs. And yes I would hold Audyssey's findings in a lot higher regard than those from non recommended setups, unknown measurement equipment and technique not to mention use (channel level bumps, above reference playback etc.) If Chris were still here I bet you would hear more subtle references to use and abuse than problems Audyssey itself may have caused and indeed they may be culpable to some degree.
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post #50535 of 62261
2/17/12 at 12:32pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Me too. Do you still use the distance trick with PLIIz? That's a cunning idea - never occurred to me to experiment with that.

Keith,
Yes I still tweak the distance settings but the slight change that I make doesn't seem to be as noticable with PLIIz.

Cheers,
SB
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post #50536 of 62261
2/17/12 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SpotcheckBilly View Post


Keith,
Yes I still tweak the distance settings but the slight change that I make doesn't seem to be as noticable with PLIIz.

Cheers,
SB

Thank SB. I'll try it over the weekend and see what I find with PLiiz here.
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post #50537 of 62261
2/17/12 at 1:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

You see convincing arguments that setup has been done as recommended and measurements taken by proper equipment and technique and then you see stuff like this.

Cute little jab at me, but as you can see in the post you quoted, I actually provide measurements to demonstrate the results and the effectiveness of using that method to EQ my own system primarily for the Master seat.

What do your measurements look like? Oh, that's right, I can't recall you EVER having posted measurements (or any technical info of ANY use actually). As noted by more than a few members, your speciality seems to be posting one (or on rare occasion 2) line barbs at other posters.

Both Markus's and my own measurements have borne out that it is possible to use a non-standard mic positioning pattern to produce very good results at one seat. Do you have the equipment or even know-how to take measurements of the frequency response in your own setup?

Using my simplified calibration, it produces great measured results and sounds excellent at my Master seat. I have no need to tweak any levels or change any of the settings from the resulting calibration, and since I do a lot of viewing/listening solo in my HT and I'm the main critical listener in my own HT even if there are others present, the results work for me. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to other folks who are incapable of actually measuring the results obtained, but my results speak for themselves.


Max
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post #50538 of 62261
2/17/12 at 5:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post


Cute little jab at me, but as you can see in the post you quoted, I actually provide measurements to demonstrate the results and the effectiveness of using that method to EQ my own system primarily for the Master seat.

What do your measurements look like? Oh, that's right, I can't recall you EVER having posted measurements (or any technical info of ANY use actually). As noted by more than a few members, your speciality seems to be posting one (or on rare occasion 2) line barbs at other posters.

Both Markus's and my own measurements have borne out that it is possible to use a non-standard mic positioning pattern to produce very good results at one seat. Do you have the equipment or even know-how to take measurements of the frequency response in your own setup?

Using my simplified calibration, it produces great measured results and sounds excellent at my Master seat. I have no need to tweak any levels or change any of the settings from the resulting calibration, and since I do a lot of viewing/listening solo in my HT and I'm the main critical listener in my own HT even if there are others present, the results work for me. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to other folks who are incapable of actually measuring the results obtained, but my results speak for themselves.

Max

Amen!!!
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post #50539 of 62261
2/18/12 at 3:19am
Hi, I've had my Onkyo 5509 processor in a couple of month now, and have played with Audyssey xt32 setup several times now .
Just wonder, what is the best crossover frequencies in my HT setup. My main speakers go down to 32hz, center and surrounds down to 45hz.
When I run xt32, Audyssey set the x-over to 40hz for main speakers and 50hz for center and surrounds.
None of my speakers, or my Velodyne DD12 sub, are THX certified.
But don't you (always) recommend to set the x-over at 80hz in almost every case...?
If I want to( have done that a couple of times) set the x-over to THX standards, 80hz, I have to do it manually AFTER I've run the xt32 setup, is that correct?,
I really can't hear any big difference whether I choose the Audyssey chosen x-over or the THX x-over....
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post #50540 of 62261
2/18/12 at 3:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnernorth View Post

Hi, I've had my Onkyo 5509 processor in a couple of month now, and have played with Audyssey xt32 setup several times now .
Just wonder, what is the best crossover frequencies in my HT setup. My main speakers go down to 32hz, center and surrounds down to 45hz.
When I run xt32, Audyssey set the x-over to 40hz for main speakers and 50hz for center and surrounds.
None of my speakers, or my Velodyne DD12 sub, are THX certified.
But don't you (always) recommend to set the x-over at 80hz in almost every case...?
If I want to( have done that a couple of times) set the x-over to THX standards, 80hz, I have to do it manually AFTER I've run the xt32 setup, is that correct?,
I really can't hear any big difference whether I choose the Audyssey chosen x-over or the THX x-over....

It's not going to make a huge difference. Where it might make a difference is in amplifier headroom. By raising the XO, you have the sub handle the lower octaves which means there's more power available for the higher octaves in the satellites.

In my case, my crossovers are also set to 40Hz by Audyssey and I leave them there. Granted I use 500watt monoblocks for the front 3 channels so I have no problems with amplifier headroom and I've measured the speakers power response to see if they can stay flat up to THX Reference at my MLP and they can.


Max
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post #50541 of 62261
2/18/12 at 3:38am
Thx Max, glad to have your opinion on this:-)
500watt pr channel up front, woooow, amazing!
I've ONLY ;-) 160watt/channel, but feel it's sufficient to me/my speakers.....
:-)
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post #50542 of 62261
2/18/12 at 3:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnernorth View Post

Hi, I've had my Onkyo 5509 processor in a couple of month now, and have played with Audyssey xt32 setup several times now .
Just wonder, what is the best crossover frequencies in my HT setup. My main speakers go down to 32hz, center and surrounds down to 45hz.
When I run xt32, Audyssey set the x-over to 40hz for main speakers and 50hz for center and surrounds.
None of my speakers, or my Velodyne DD12 sub, are THX certified.
But don't you (always) recommend to set the x-over at 80hz in almost every case...?
If I want to( have done that a couple of times) set the x-over to THX standards, 80hz, I have to do it manually AFTER I've run the xt32 setup, is that correct?,
I really can't hear any big difference whether I choose the Audyssey chosen x-over or the THX x-over....

Hi Jan, this has been covered so many times in the thread that I am considering putting my reply on a macro (seriously).

Audyssey measures the in-room frequency response of the speakers and reports its findings to the AVR/AVP which then sets a crossover based upon the manufacturer's design decisions.

The XO thus reported will be what Audyssey 'hears' in the actual room at the time of measurement and may differ greatly from the speaker manufacturer's specification, which are usually quoted from testing in an anechoic chamber (ie with the room effect removed) or are just wildly optimistic for marketing purposes.

There are various good reasons to use a XO of 80Hz or thereabouts:

1. By doing so, you will relieve the strain on the main speakers from trying to reproduce very low frequencies. This can help the speakers perform better in the mid and higher frequencies.

2. By doing so you also relieve the considerable strain on the amplifier that it experiences when trying to produce very high SPLs at very low frequencies, such as often found in movie content. It takes simply huge amounts of amplifier power to generate 105 dB at 20Hz or even lower - the amp in the subwoofer has been designed in conjunction with the subwoofer itself to drive the speaker to those levels at those frequencies. By handing off these frequencies to the sub, it greatly eases the strain on your AVR or external amplifier and this will have a beneficial effect on the way it drives the other speakers in the system.

3. By using a dedicated sub (or subs) to produce the low bass, you are also able to place the sub/s in the optimum room position wrt to room modes. Front speakers have to be positioned for imaging and the best place for a bass speaker is not usually the best place for imaging. By crossing over to a sub at 80Hz, you can place the main speakers in the best place and also the sub in the best place too.

4. If you have Audyssey XT or MUltEQ, the filter resolution for the bass frequencies is much higher than it is for the satellites, so handing more of the frequencies off to the sub lets you benefit from that greater filter resolution over a wider range of frequencies. With XT32, the filter resolution for the sub is the same as for the satellites, so that consideration doesn't apply to anyone fortunate enough to have XT32.

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Note to regulars. I have put the above text onto a macro. If anyone wishes to add anything or to correct anything, please say so and I will add the comments to the macro. Then, next time someone asks the same question as Jan, I can just type three characters and the answer will be there! Technology eh?
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post #50543 of 62261
2/18/12 at 5:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

reports its findings to the AVR/AVP which then sets a crossover based upon the AVR/AVP manufacturer's design decisions...
...It takes simply huge amounts of amplifier power to generate 105 dB at 20 or 40 or 60Hz - the amp in the subwoofer has been designed in conjunction with the subwoofer itself ...

Nicely done Keith and a great idea to use a macro. Adding a FAQ to the Setup Guide might be helpful too.

I made some suggestions above. I'd also suggest you add at the beginning a link to Chris' frequently referenced "Ask Audyssey" answer to another closely related FAQ, "Why should I reset my large speakers to small?" Or at least make specific mention of resetting speakers to small and raising any crossovers below 80 to 80 (but never lowering them) as the usual recommended start point. The two issues have basically the same rationale in the answer. And at the end I'd add that it may be worthwhile to compare any crossovers allowed under the above rules to see which might be preferred, particularly in the case of XT32.
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post #50544 of 62261
2/18/12 at 5:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Nicely done Keith and a great idea to use a macro. Adding a FAQ to the Setup Guide might be helpful too.

I made some suggestions above. I'd also suggest you add at the beginning a link to Chris' frequently referenced "Ask Audyssey" answer to another closely related FAQ, "Why should I reset my large speakers to small?" Or at least make specific mention of resetting speakers to small and raising any crossovers below 80 to 80 (but never lowering them) as the usual recommended start point. The two issues have basically the same rationale in the answer. And at the end I'd add that it may be worthwhile to compare any crossovers allowed under the above rules to see which might be preferred, particularly in the case of XT32.

Good suggestions SoM. I will incorporate them into my macro A FAQ is a great idea too - there are so many repeated questions on the thread and its huge length is daunting to newcomers and puts them off searching I think. I don't know if the thread starter is still around? I guess it would be easy enough to start a new 'Audyssey FAQs and Answers' thread though.

EDIT: suggestions incorporated into macro.
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post #50545 of 62261
2/18/12 at 5:21am
^^
The thread starter apparently has not posted much, although did so as recently as last week so he should be able to add any FAQ info to post #1, otherwise it's easy enough to get a MOD to add it. However, it would likely be easier to just start a new thread as you suggest which could be updated by a regular and ideally stickied at some point.

Edit: Also emphasize in your macro that changing these settings AFTER running the AUTO EQ has no impact on the Audyssey filters.
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post #50546 of 62261
2/18/12 at 5:24am
Keith, I've followed this thread for a while now, and admit I've read about XO in here before. But what you just posted, seems too me to be the most enlightened, thx, I'll TRY MY BEST to remember :-) :-)
But, after all, it's a place for everyone, new HT enthusiasts and experienced, agree? And sometimes there's simply too many pages one have to read through to get/assume the right answer in one's particular case, it's simply "better" to have the dialog with one of you experienced ;-)
To be honest Keith, aren't you a little "proud", when you guide one of us newbies in the right direction? -I would have been! , -and think its ok, now and then, to bring the "debate" down to a more Common level :-) -no offend !
Once again, Thx.
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post #50547 of 62261
2/18/12 at 5:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Hi Jan, this has been covered so many times in the thread that I am considering putting my reply on a macro (seriously).

Audyssey measures the in-room frequency response of the speakers and reports its findings to the AVR/AVP which then sets a crossover based upon the manufacturer's design decisions.

The XO thus reported will be what Audyssey 'hears' in the actual room at the time of measurement and may differ greatly from the speaker manufacturer's specification, which are usually quoted from testing in an anechoic chamber (ie with the room effect removed) or are just wildly optimistic for marketing purposes.

There are various good reasons to use a XO of 80Hz or thereabouts:

1. By doing so, you will relieve the strain on the main speakers from trying to reproduce very low frequencies. This can help the speakers perform better in the mid and higher frequencies.

2. By doing so you also relieve the considerable strain on the amplifier that it experiences when trying to produce very high SPLs at very low frequencies, such as often found in movie content. It takes simply huge amounts of amplifier power to generate 105 dB at 20Hz or even lower - the amp in the subwoofer has been designed in conjunction with the subwoofer itself to drive the speaker to those levels at those frequencies. By handing off these frequencies to the sub, it greatly eases the strain on your AVR or external amplifier and this will have a beneficial effect on the way it drives the other speakers in the system.

3. By using a dedicated sub (or subs) to produce the low bass, you are also able to place the sub/s in the optimum room position wrt to room modes. Front speakers have to be positioned for imaging and the best place for a bass speaker is not usually the best place for imaging. By crossing over to a sub at 80Hz, you can place the main speakers in the best place and also the sub in the best place too.

4. If you have Audyssey XT or MUltEQ, the filter resolution for the bass frequencies is much higher than it is for the satellites, so handing more of the frequencies off to the sub lets you benefit from that greater filter resolution over a wider range of frequencies. With XT32, the filter resolution for the sub is the same as for the satellites, so that consideration doesn't apply to anyone fortunate enough to have XT32.

------------------------------------------

Note to regulars. I have put the above text onto a macro. If anyone wishes to add anything or to correct anything, please say so and I will add the comments to the macro. Then, next time someone asks the same question as Jan, I can just type three characters and the answer will be there! Technology eh?

Very good write up. My only comment would be to list some of the cons as well. I have recently become a fan of lower crossovers to get better envelopment as discussed in this thread
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1393245 (there is some good links in there about research on the issue).

Granted you need capable speakers and amps but I found the difference to be quite appealing as I previously was in the camp of set to 80hz and forget about it.
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post #50548 of 62261
2/18/12 at 5:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Note to regulars. I have put the above text onto a macro. If anyone wishes to add anything or to correct anything, please say so and I will add the comments to the macro. Then, next time someone asks the same question as Jan, I can just type three characters and the answer will be there! Technology eh?

Maybe this one?
5. Subs have been measured and equalized playing together. The other speakers haven't.
So, especially for 2 channel music, the summed bass from Left and Right will be unpredictable when playing together.
That is not no such much of a problem for the Center or the Surrounds with movies.


This will probably meet resistance from those who have invested a lot of money into big floorstanding speakers...

Here is what Toole says: Stereo Bass: Little Ado about Even Less
With apologies to William Shakespeare, this issue relates to the fact that for
all the systems described above to function fully, the bass must be mono-
phonic below the subwoofer crossover frequency. Most of the bass in common
program material is highly correlated or monophonic to begin with, and bass-
management systems are commonplace, but some have argued that it is
necessary to preserve at least two-channel playback down to some very low
frequency. It is alleged that this is necessary to deliver certain aspects of
spatial effect.
Experimental evidence thus far has not been encouraging to supporters of
this notion (Welti, 2004, and references therein). Audible differences appear to
be near or below the threshold of detection, even when experienced listeners are
exposed to isolated low-frequency sounds. The author has participated in a few
comparisons, carefully set up and supervised by proponents of stereo bass, but
each time the result has been inconclusive. With music and film sound tracks,
differences in spaciousness were in the small to nonexistent category, but dif-
ferences in bass were sometimes obvious, as the interaction of the two woofers
and the room modes changed as they moved in and out of phase. These were
simple frequency-response matters that are rarely compensated for in such
evaluations. Even with contrived stereo signals, spatial differences were difficult
to tie down. This is not a mass-market concern. In fact, some of the discussion
revolved around the idea that one may need to undergo some training to hear
the effects.
Another recent investigation concludes that the audible effects benefiting
from channel separation relate to frequencies above about 80 Hz (Martens et
al., 2004). In their conclusion, the authors identify a cutoff-frequency boundary
between 50 Hz and 63 Hz, these being the center frequencies of the octave
bands of noise used as signals. However, when the upper-frequency limits of the
bands are taken into account, the numbers change to about 71 Hz and 89 Hz,
the average of which is 80 Hz. This means, in essence, that it is a stereo upper-
bass issue, and the surround channels (which typically operate down to 80 Hz)
are already stereo and placed at the sides for maximum benefit.
Enough said.
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post #50549 of 62261
2/18/12 at 5:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
The thread starter apparently has not posted much, although did so as recently as last week so he should be able to add any FAQ info to post #1, otherwise it's easy enough to get a MOD to add it. However, it would likely be easier to just start a new thread as you suggest which could be updated by a regular and ideally stickied at some point.

Edit: Also emphasize in your macro that changing these settings AFTER running the AUTO EQ has no impact on the Audyssey filters.

Thanks. I was actually adding that as you typed your reply in!
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post #50550 of 62261
2/18/12 at 5:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by runnernorth View Post

Keith, I've followed this thread for a while now, and admit I've read about XO in here before. But what you just posted, seems too me to be the most enlightened, thx, I'll TRY MY BEST to remember :-) :-)

Hi Jan - sorry, I wasn't trying to be snide or anything - just saying that the question is asked a lot. Glad to have 'enlightened' you LOL!

Quote:
Originally Posted by runnernorth View Post

But, after all, it's a place for everyone, new HT enthusiasts and experienced, agree? And sometimes there's simply too many pages one have to read through to get/assume the right answer in one's particular case, it's simply "better" to have the dialog with one of you experienced ;-)

Agreed. The length of the thread and the not-so-brilliant search engine makes it difficult for people to locate the advice they are looking for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by runnernorth View Post

To be honest Keith, aren't you a little "proud", when you guide one of us newbies in the right direction? -I would have been! , -and think its ok, now and then, to bring the "debate" down to a more Common level :-) -no offend !

I have learned so much from this thread and the knowledgeable guys here that I like to give something back when I can. There are many people here who know far more about acoustic theory etc than I ever will and I figure that if I answer the more basic questions, it leaves them free to enlighten us all on the more advanced stuff. I agree with you - this thread is for everyone, newbie and experienced alike.

Quote:
Originally Posted by runnernorth View Post

Once again, Thx.

Hey, you're more than welcome!
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)