"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1699

Originally Posted by pokekevin

Wife approval factor

Originally Posted by allan0210

WAF

Short in some way for wife?

Pop over to the SVS site whats SVS short for please?

Told you i needed help lol guess some may be as i am UK may have to stick with that reason

Originally Posted by allan0210

WAF

Short in some way for wife?

Pop over to the SVS site whats SVS short for please?

Told you i needed help lol guess some may be as i am UK may have to stick with that reason

Originally Posted by pbarach

http://www.svsound.com

Originally Posted by djbluemax1

Well, here's my personal take on raising my crossovers from their default 40Hz to 80Hz all the way round and how it affected things.

First off, a description of my system to establish a baseline.

Multi-disc player: Oppo BDP-93
AVR: Onkyo TX-NR5008
Additional amplifiers: Emotiva XPA-1 500 watt monoblocks for the L/C/R
Speakers: Boston Acoustics E100's for the LCR. My rear surrounds are older 3-ways that have built-in 12" woofers.
Subwoofer: Seaton Submersive HP with built-in 2400 watt amp.

Surround sound:
I watched the pod race scene off the Blu Ray of Star Wars Ep 1 probably about 15-16 times going back and forth between 80Hz and 40Hz.

I first watched the entire scene with my regular 40Hz crossovers, then watched the entire scene again after changing all the crossovers to 80Hz, then went back and watched those scenes/chapters again with the crossovers reverted back to 40Hz, and yet again with them set to 80Hz.

I then used the A-B function of the Oppo to continuously loop specific scenes from those chapters while switching between the 40Hz and 80Hz settings.

My take on it after all that?
1) In my system, there is no lack of 'slam' in either setting. The overall SPL's and impact in the lower octaves is similar
2) There IS a discernible difference between the two settings in my system. As it turns out, after doing this test, it appears I can localize bass noises below 80Hz to some extent.

In some of the scenes that I replayed/looped back to back, over and over again, I could actually hear the difference between the crossovers in what sounds came from the satellites vs which were handed over to the sub, i.e. in some of the scenes where the other pods fly by, with the 80Hz setting, I could hear that the upper frequencies panned with the speakers, but the low end 'rumble' didn't pan, whereas with the 40Hz crossovers, the entire sound effect of the pod flying by panned across the speakers.

There was a point where I could no longer localize panning though. Basically the really low end of the rumble was non-localizable, but that range appears to be below the 40Hz crossover setting, as once again, I could hear some of the low end rumbles of the pods flying by NOT panning when set to 80Hz, where I would hear it all pan when set to 40Hz, but the lowest/deepest rumbles sounded... formless/sourceless and non-localizable regardless of crossover setting.

For me, this made the 40Hz setting more involving in those scenes, because it produced a much more realistic effect of a large object producing high SPL low frequency noise passing by, as opposed to the 80Hz setting that had the higher frequencies pan, but all the sound from 80Hz down not move around the room.

Had I not specifically tried this and demo'ed them back to back, I would not have realized that I could hear/sense this difference. It's a bit of a downer to me personally, because I was planning to timbre match the rear surrounds using smaller versions of the E100's that have the same tweeter, but those speakers (E70's) have a -3db point of about 63Hz anechoic. Now I have to think deep and hard about this, and it's going to be a pain should I ever decide to change my surround setup, knowing that I'll now have to look into surrounds that can run flat down to the 30's, where it would be so much cheaper and easier to look at all the options that only need to go flat to THX 80Hz specs.

As I mentioned earlier in the discussion, I've also determined that there is a percussive/concussive factor to low frequency capable surrounds. In that example I'd mentioned, it's easy to roughly indicate the direction of the explosion of a bigger firecracker from the direction of the pressure/shock wave. I find this evident in movies with surround gunfire too, and once again, the 80Hz crossover tends to neuter that.

As far as music goes, the effect is much more subtle in my setup, but it's there on tracks where there's material in that region between the 40 and 80Hz crossover settings.

Chesky records is known for their use of stereo mic'ing, in particular, their use of single point mic'ing with a Blumlein pair configuration. This mic'ing technique tends to produce recordings that not only capture the artists, but the space they were recorded in as well.

On David Chesky's Area 31 album, tracks 3 and 4 particularly (Concerto for Violin and Orchestra, Tom Chiu, violin: Allegro Maestoso and Wonjung Kim: The Girl From Guatemala respectively) both exhibited these differences with the 2 crossover settings, because both these tracks have instruments digging into that 40Hz-80Hz range (and on rare occasion, a little lower even).

One of the things about Blumlein mic'ing is that properly done, they not only convey a sense of the space the recording was made in, but they produce recordings with soundstages that appear to have greater depth. The 80Hz setting on those tracks produced a flatter fuzzier depth image of the bass in those 2 tracks than the 40Hz setting, but as I mentioned, the difference was more subtle to me than the more blatant, "these frequencies are panning and THESE frequencies are no longer panning" differences in the Star Wars sequences.

As always, YMMV, but it looks like I'm going to be sticking to the 40Hz crossover settings on my own system.

As far as the point of this discussion taking place in the Audyssey thread, as has already been mentioned numerous times, I'd say it definitely has merit and is on-topic as the previous common advice was simply, "run Audyssey, raise all crossovers to 80Hz if they are set lower. Do not lower any crossovers". Well, in my own setup, it seems that there are benefits to using lower crossovers if the system is capable of reproducing them flat at the volumes that will be used.


Max

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

It's worth mentioning to Allan that if ordering from the UK, you have to go via their European distributor based in Norway, L-Sound. The prices for the subs in Euros is more or less the same as the price in the US in dollars. At first this seems like a bit of a rip-off but in fact if you take into account shipping from USA, plus UK/EU import duty and taxes, it works out about the same as if you could actually buy them direct from the UK. L-Sound are a good company to deal with and the SVS subs still represent fantastic value - way better than anything sold in the UK, IMO.

Originally Posted by allan0210

Hi

Thank you for the link

This is off the UK site

http://www.lsound.no/Avdelinger/SVS/...000001509.aspx £6490

http://www.svsound.com/view-all?page...&product_id=14 $769

I now know i am doing something wrong the same model uk us can not be so much or am i doing something wrong

For sure i won't be spending £6.5K on a sub... lol

Cheers

Allan

Originally Posted by nismo604

Just to make you feel better about your conclusion about keeping your crossover at 40hz. I had the same question before whether I should raise my XOs with XT32, so I posted the question at the audyssey website. Chris was kind enough to answer it.

https://audyssey.zendesk.com/forums/.../20997106.html

The gist of it is for XT32 just leave the XOs where they are.

Originally Posted by allan0210

Hi

Thank you for the link

This is off the UK site

http://www.lsound.no/Avdelinger/SVS/...000001509.aspx £6490

http://www.svsound.com/view-all?page...&product_id=14 $769

I now know i am doing something wrong the same model uk us can not be so much or am i doing something wrong

For sure i won't be spending £6.5K on a sub... lol

Cheers

Allan

Originally Posted by djbluemax1



The other setting is the LPF (Low Pass Filter) of the LFE (Low Frequency Effects). This should be set as high as possible (or to 120Hz).


Max

Originally Posted by djbluemax1

Thanks, but yes, we were already aware of that. The discussion here for the past few pages was whether there was any potential benefit from leaving the crossovers set at the lower frequency vs the common recommendation of raising them to 80Hz.

In particular, the discussion was specifically regarding stereo (and I guess, multichannel) bass and whether the loss of that with higher crossovers actually provided reasons against raising the crossovers if your speakers/system is capable of lower.



I think that site is listing prices in Norwegian kroner? In which case, it's about USD $1164. Not sure how that compares vs shipping from the US + import taxes and VAT and whatever else you folks have to deal with on your side of the pond.

If however, you win the lotto and decide that you DO want to spend $6.5k on subs, here are some awesome options
http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...ricing-3366417
(The Submersive HP is what I have)
http://www.paradigm.com/products/pro...e-series/sub-2
http://www.jlaudio.com/product_list/...am%26%23174%3B


Max

Originally Posted by allan0210

Hi

Thanks for the info the LPF is my next bit to try and understand please

The onkyo was pre set at 120Hz and i moved it to 80Hz thinking match my Kef eggs and sub

If i move the filter back up what does that control do please.

I have tried my Kef xo at 120hz however they sound "wrong" probably better wrong but ether i have a bit missing or the sub maybe won't work as high as 120Hz

So have i messed up putting lpf at 80 but speakesr at 120Hz

Many thanks all those who have helped

Allan

Originally Posted by JHAz

The lfe is ONLY the content in the .1 channel of movies or multichannel recordings. The lpf of the lfe only affects that lfe/.1 channel and makes zero difference to the crossovers from your speakers to the sub. The usual understanding is that mixers limit the lfe channel to 120 hz and below. When you set the low pass for lfe below 120 Hz you basically lose whatever was mixed to the, 1 channel above the cutoff you set.

Originally Posted by allan0210

Got the point 1 bit with that explanation thanks will all subs go as high as 120Hz does any one know?

Originally Posted by allan0210

I will move it anyway i just thought subs really only went down not up very far at all.

Originally Posted by allan0210

So my AV sub output cable deals with all the .1 channel sounds and anything after i have set the xo for my speakers.

Originally Posted by allan0210

On Onkyo amps you get 2 sub out sockets from posts above i see that XT will not handle the info well for 2 subs so if both subs got the same info output from the AV is any benifit gained by having 2 subs as bass is not directional?

Originally Posted by allan0210

One thing about this AV game is as you get understanding of one part a bit more raises its head lol

Originally Posted by toy4x

Having a little problem with my Denon 2310. I have had this unit running now for over 1.5 years, nothing has changed. I had a little time today where everyone left the house so I was able to do another Microphone setup. I have run this setup numerous times before with no issues... now that I have one, I'm stumped.

1st test - I get left front speaker out of phase. I changed the red/black wires around.
2nd test - I get right front speaker out of phase. Put back the original wires to the left speaker.
3rd test - Everything the way it was originally, BOTH front speakers out of phase
4th test - (no change) front left speaker out of phase

what's going on here? Any Ideas? After the 1st test left speaker out of phase, I just skipped it and ran the whole setup all the way through. I didn't finish the setups from 2-4 tests. I ran a couple BR with Master HD and it sounds great...so dont know the issues with the setup.

Also noticed the sub after the first test says distance 23.5 ft...when it is only 11 ft. It set the sub channel level at -12. All other distances are correct. Previous tests always got it really close to 11ft and always set it at -10.5.

Any help? Not so sure if this is an Auddyssey issue, reciever issue, or microphone issue.

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

I don't know about 'all' but all those I have read specs for do. And yours definitely does.



They often go as high as 200Hz or more.



Yes. The .1 always goes from the AVR to the sub in its entirety if you set the LPF to 120Hz as advised above. The rest of the bass that would ordinarily go to the main speakers is redirected to the sub depending on the XO you set. IOW, if you set an XO of 80Hz, all the frequencies down to 80Hz are handled by your main speakers and all those below 80Hz are handled by the sub.



Yes. The main benefit of using two subs is that they will smooth out the modes (peaks and nulls) in the room, giving a much more even bass response across a much greater area of the room - less seat to seat variance. The subjective effect is one of tighter, less boomy bass. In an AVR with XT you would use one of the sub outlets and a Y connector to hook up the two subs.



Oh yes, grasshopper.... LOL....

Originally Posted by bezlar

I have a ? Does audyssy set my speaker ohms, or do I have to do it manually? In my speaker configuration my integra 70.3 says 6 ohms but my triads are rated 4 ohms. Do I have to change it or not worry about it? I'm new to audyssy been on Yamaha's for the last 15 years. The audyssy system blows ypo out of the water on sound. It's like I bought all new speakers and subs.

Thanks
Barry

Originally Posted by bezlar

I have a ? Does audyssy set my speaker ohms, or do I have to do it manually? In my speaker configuration my integra 70.3 says 6 ohms but my triads are rated 4 ohms. Do I have to change it or not worry about it? I'm new to audyssy been on Yamaha's for the last 15 years. The audyssy system blows ypo out of the water on sound. It's like I bought all new speakers and subs.

Thanks
Barry

Originally Posted by allan0210

Fantastic thank you Keith

I am set now.

Looked at SVS but just that yet, found a couple 5 year old ones for sale bit far south for me though I am NE UK so fuel prices rear the head.

I did wonder if 2 smaller subs may do a good job my only local HiFi dealer is Richer Sounds then 40 -60 miles for next locations. Not a problem if i had something delivered

Cheers

Allan

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

Use the 6 ohm setting on your Integra. It can handle it. If you use the 4 ohm setting, current limiting is engaged which will reduce the power output of your unit (if it is an AVR). They engage current limiting to satisfy the regulators wrt 4 ohm output and the unit getting very hot when tested with a continuous sine wave - you won't have a problem in real life.

Originally Posted by djbluemax1


Well, here's my personal take on raising my crossovers from their default 40Hz to 80Hz all the way round and how it affected things.

Surround sound:
I watched the pod race scene off the Blu Ray of Star Wars Ep 1 probably about 15-16 times going back and forth between 80Hz and 40Hz.

Originally Posted by allan0210


Pop over to the SVS site whats SVS short for please?

Originally Posted by toy4x

Having a little problem with my Denon 2310. I have had this unit running now for over 1.5 years, nothing has changed. I had a little time today where everyone left the house so I was able to do another Microphone setup. I have run this setup numerous times before with no issues... now that I have one, I'm stumped.

1st test - I get left front speaker out of phase. I changed the red/black wires around.
2nd test - I get right front speaker out of phase. Put back the original wires to the left speaker.
3rd test - Everything the way it was originally, BOTH front speakers out of phase
4th test - (no change) front left speaker out of phase

what's going on here? Any Ideas? After the 1st test left speaker out of phase, I just skipped it and ran the whole setup all the way through. I didn't finish the setups from 2-4 tests. I ran a couple BR with Master HD and it sounds great...so dont know the issues with the setup.

Also noticed the sub after the first test says distance 23.5 ft...when it is only 11 ft. It set the sub channel level at -12. All other distances are correct. Previous tests always got it really close to 11ft and always set it at -10.5.

Any help? Not so sure if this is an Auddyssey issue, reciever issue, or microphone issue.

Originally Posted by jdsmoothie

As noted in your Denon Owner's manual, a phase error can be ignored as long as the wires are confirmed to be connected correctly (ie. don't change the wires if wired correctly +/+ and -/-). You may get a phase error from time to time simply due to room acoustics. Also the sub "distance" is a delay factor more so than an actual distance factor, and may have changed possibly due to room dynamics having changed somewhat.

Originally Posted by allan0210

....... i see that XT will not handle the info well for 2 subs so if both subs got the same info output from the AV is any benifit gained by having 2 subs as bass is not directional?

Originally Posted by hclarkx


I agree with the other responses to this post but I can't agree with the statement that Audyssey XT will not handle two subs well. I've long had two subs and have used the Pro Install kit to compare before and after for different sub locations and XT has always made a substantial improvement in amplitude response and technically, it should. Phase response is likely not corrected as well though the pro install software does not reveal that so it's hard to tell. The problem is that the EQ is sending corrected signals to both subs without knowing which one is causing each measured deviations in the response. The SubEQ does a better job, but don't sell XT short. The improvement it provides is very significant in both blending and smoothing the response.

Having the two subs equidistant from the listening bubble and similarly placed lets XT do a very good job. I.e., with both subs being corner subs or better yet being at the 1/3 points along the wall behind the monitor. This gives XT less challenge from a phase standpoint and produces very good results.