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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1711

post #51301 of 62726
3/4/12 at 9:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Certainly in a driver's "wheelhouse" they are all equally fast. At the lower extremity, a driver could be less controlled.

Below a vented boxes tuned frequency all sorts of nastiness happens, enough to destroy a driver. That's why a HPF is required.
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post #51302 of 62726
3/4/12 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Yes, XT32 has made more of a difference than anything other than my speakers. I'm going to run it again today, this time with just inches between each measurement rather than the one foot spacing I used last time.

Ah - I would be *very* interested in your findings there, Theresa. This is an experiment I plan to do here when the FW is ready and I can finally use my Pro kit.
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post #51303 of 62726
3/4/12 at 9:21am
MultEQ and SW correction

My Denon avr-1909 has MultEQ which is supposed to make corrections to the subwoofer.
During the years I made several Audyssey measurement runs, usually using a camera tripod. Often the subwoofer distance was shorter than the physical distance - this is attributed to the less than ideal measurement setup ie. couch picks up vibrations and transmits to the tripod, etc.
Earlier last year I had a setup where the measured distance was longer than the actual distance and ran some REW measurements with the Audyssey microphone and REW graphs showed some difference in the bass region between Audyssey on/off.

Before today my last Audyssey run resulted a sw distance less than half of the physical distance. REW graphs showed no difference in the bass region between Audyssey on/off.
(REW measurement were done with the microphone)

This week I was able to record the sw pre-out signal with REW, and the REW result showed no sw correction applied to the signal.

(Earlier I have made attempts with REW to measure the sub pre-out but the Toshiba laptop I owned at that time couldn't receive line level signal on its microphone-in jack. Now I have a 2009 Macbook Pro and it has a proper line level input so now I can make a sub pre-out measurement. But now I have to get a mic-preamp to use the Audyssey mic since unlike the Toshiba the Macbook has no microphone in.)

Today I made a makeshift microphone stand - really lightweight and thin. You really don't want to see the device, let me just say that I used some packaging material, electrician's tape and a duster.

Anyway, after completing the Audyssey setup my subwoofer distance was larger than the physical distance (good sign) and I ran a REW measurement on the sub pre-out and now I can see that MultEQ does something to the sw channel.

The room layout, the furniture remained the same, the measuremt locations were (more or less) the same, only the microphone stand was different.

I don't know why there's correction at one time and no correction another time.
Did anybody else experience something like this? I remember Markus had this problem but after a fw update on his Onkyo the problem's gone.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink
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post #51304 of 62726
3/4/12 at 9:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Ah - I would be *very* interested in your findings there, Theresa. This is an experiment I plan to do here when the FW is ready and I can finally use my Pro kit.

Same here. It didn't seem to work so well (in my room) with the standard mic/calibration. But things could be different with the Pro mic/calibration.
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post #51305 of 62726
3/4/12 at 10:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoli View Post

MultEQ and SW correction

My Denon avr-1909 has MultEQ which is supposed to make corrections to the subwoofer.
During the years I made several Audyssey measurement runs, usually using a camera tripod. Often the subwoofer distance was shorter than the physical distance - this is attributed to the less than ideal measurement setup ie. couch picks up vibrations and transmits to the tripod, etc.
Earlier last year I had a setup where the measured distance was longer than the actual distance and ran some REW measurements with the Audyssey microphone and REW graphs showed some difference in the bass region between Audyssey on/off.

Before today my last Audyssey run resulted a sw distance less than half of the physical distance. REW graphs showed no difference in the bass region between Audyssey on/off.
(REW measurement were done with the microphone)

This week I was able to record the sw pre-out signal with REW, and the REW result showed no sw correction applied to the signal.

(Earlier I have made attempts with REW to measure the sub pre-out but the Toshiba laptop I owned at that time couldn't receive line level signal on its microphone-in jack. Now I have a 2009 Macbook Pro and it has a proper line level input so now I can make a sub pre-out measurement. But now I have to get a mic-preamp to use the Audyssey mic since unlike the Toshiba the Macbook has no microphone in.)

Today I made a makeshift microphone stand - really lightweight and thin. You really don't want to see the device, let me just say that I used some packaging material, electrician's tape and a duster.

Anyway, after completing the Audyssey setup my subwoofer distance was larger than the physical distance (good sign) and I ran a REW measurement on the sub pre-out and now I can see that MultEQ does something to the sw channel.

The room layout, the furniture remained the same, the measuremt locations were (more or less) the same, only the microphone stand was different.

I don't know why there's correction at one time and no correction another time.
Did anybody else experience something like this? I remember Markus had this problem but after a fw update on his Onkyo the problem's gone.

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/phot...eat=directlink

Out of curiosity, do you recall how tightly you used to screw the microphone onto your camera tripod? I don't know that it would have been the difference with what has happened with you, but I do know that it can severely affect the results of Audyssey. I learned this early on, and thereafter made a point of only very loosely placing the mic onto my tripod. It made a big improvement.
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post #51306 of 62726
3/4/12 at 10:25am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-Authority View Post

Out of curiosity, do you recall how tightly you used to screw the microphone onto your camera tripod? I don't know that it would have been the difference with what has happened with you, but I do know that it can severely affect the results of Audyssey. I learned this early on, and thereafter made a point of only very loosely placing the mic onto my tripod. It made a big improvement.

Very tightly. I thought it shouldn't move on the top of the tripod.

I'll try your method next weekend.
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post #51307 of 62726
3/4/12 at 10:26am
Hi can we buy Audyssey pro software installer kit or is it only for installers i have had a look on google but can not find anyone selling it. This is for UK by the way.

Many thanks
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post #51308 of 62726
3/4/12 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan0210 View Post

Hi can we buy Audyssey pro software installer kit or is it only for installers i have had a look on google but can not find anyone selling it. This is for UK by the way.

There is no UK Distributor and finding a UK Dealer to supply one is very difficult at present, unless you want to pay over £700. If you contact Audyssey, they will put you in contact with the French Distributor - which is the cheapest option at the moment.
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post #51309 of 62726
3/4/12 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It seems to make sense to me. I haven’t included anything like that in my macro response to the FAQ about where to set XOs or whether to use Large for the main speakers "because they are big", because I think someone asking that question is likely to be an inexperienced user. So my answer isn't meant to cover all bases wrt to the issue, but to give some easily-understood general advice which will work for most of that type of enquirer.

Keith,

If driving the mains woofer beyond it's linear region is problematic, then I'd suggest this is both a reason to set the mains (& more so the other satellites) to small as well as push the XO up to 80 Hz.

In my experience mains with 6" woofers even in fairly large rooms can often be set to 60 Hz based on tests run at 75 db. What I'm not certain is whether all 6" woofers can produce good quality sound at 105 db at 60 Hz (or just above 60 Hz). My guess is that many can not do so.

This is probably not a major issue because passages in a movie that are that loud probably mask any distortion from driving the 6" cone beyond its linear range. Or maybe it is an issue because woofer damage can result from driving a cone beyond Xmech which often is not much beyond Xmax.

My thinking is that this may be another good reason for choosing 80 Hz. The explanation doesn't have to be highly technical. I.e., the reason is to not push the satellites beyond their physical limits on loud passages thereby avoiding damage and preserving sound quality on loud passages.

Harrison
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post #51310 of 62726
3/4/12 at 10:54am
"Reran Audyssey and instead of the Speaker Not Detected error I started getting Ambient Noise Too Loud error (the room is quiet as a tomb)."
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There have been reports of the occasional bad mic. It could be that yours is bad as the symptoms are unusual and also erratic. A loose wire in the mic perhaps could cause that good reading you got. The mics are inexpensive - about 20 bucks IIRC - from Onkyo. Be sure to specify the AVR model and serial number if you get a new mic as they are not universal.

I have the same problem, but its not the MIC (I tried a spare), plus it ran before the firmware update.
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post #51311 of 62726
3/4/12 at 10:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post


Keith,

If driving the mains woofer beyond it's linear region is problematic, then I'd suggest this is both a reason to set the mains (& more so the other satellites) to small as well as push the XO up to 80 Hz.

In my experience mains with 6" woofers even in fairly large rooms can often be set to 60 Hz based on tests run at 75 db. What I'm not certain is whether all 6" woofers can produce good quality sound at 105 db at 60 Hz (or just above 60 Hz). My guess is that many can not do so.

This is probably not a major issue because passages in a movie that are that loud probably mask any distortion from driving the 6" cone beyond its linear range. Or maybe it is an issue because woofer damage can result from driving a cone beyond Xmech which often is not much beyond Xmax.

My thinking is that this may be another good reason for choosing 80 Hz. The explanation doesn't have to be highly technical. I.e., the reason is to not push the satellites beyond their physical limits on loud passages thereby avoiding damage and preserving sound quality on loud passages.

Harrison

I agree with all that, but I do think we need to be more realistic in what demands we actually put on our speakers. Yes there are people with systems that can run at or near reference, but it does seem most people even in this thread are typically listening around -10. So this means peaks of only 95db which becomes much more managable for the speaker and amps.
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post #51312 of 62726
3/4/12 at 11:06am
Thank you very much that is a great help

Allan

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

There is no UK Distributor and finding a UK Dealer to supply one is very difficult at present, unless you want to pay over £700. If you contact Audyssey, they will put you in contact with the French Distributor - which is the cheapest option at the moment.
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post #51313 of 62726
3/4/12 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by hclarkx View Post

Keith,

If driving the mains woofer beyond it's linear region is problematic, then I'd suggest this is both a reason to set the mains (& more so the other satellites) to small as well as push the XO up to 80 Hz.

In my experience mains with 6" woofers even in fairly large rooms can often be set to 60 Hz based on tests run at 75 db. What I'm not certain is whether all 6" woofers can produce good quality sound at 105 db at 60 Hz (or just above 60 Hz). My guess is that many can not do so.

This is probably not a major issue because passages in a movie that are that loud probably mask any distortion from driving the 6" cone beyond its linear range. Or maybe it is an issue because woofer damage can result from driving a cone beyond Xmech which often is not much beyond Xmax.

My thinking is that this may be another good reason for choosing 80 Hz. The explanation doesn't have to be highly technical. I.e., the reason is to not push the satellites beyond their physical limits on loud passages thereby avoiding damage and preserving sound quality on loud passages.

Harrison

IMHO, if driving the mains woofer beyond it's linear region is problematic, then the eunduser was not careful enough when planning the system prior to purchasing the speakers in relation to avr power out and room size. Meantime, IMHO, driving the mains woofer beyond it's linear region IS gonna be problematic, something not to be done or just live with it until buying better capable speakers.
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post #51314 of 62726
3/4/12 at 1:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by allan0210 View Post

Thank you very much that is a great help

Allan

If you are interested, I could PM you the details?
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post #51315 of 62726
3/4/12 at 1:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eiger View Post

Guys -

I'm running into some isssues with Audyssey and need a little guidance. I recently switched out two components in my system.

1) Put in new Emotiva XPA-5 Amp.
2) Have new Front L&R Speakers. (Vienna Beethoven).

My issue is this. After removing my buttkicker amp from the chain, and running Audyssey with both my A7s-450 subs to my SMS-1 Velodyne, My Audyssey results have my Sub's trim at -15DB.

First thing I tried was turning down the volume/gain on the SMS-1 without much effect.

What do I need to do to get my two subs blending properly with my new speakers? Right now, it sounds "off". I shouldn't have to re-calibrate my my subwoofers all over again independtly of Audyssey, right? Hoping not.

Can anyone help here?
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post #51316 of 62726
3/4/12 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by eiger View Post

Can anyone help here?

What version of Audyssey are you using?

When you say that turning down the volume/gain on the SMS-1 has had little effect, do you mean little or none? If it's little, then turn it down more.

The Subs are too loud and you need to reduce the output, by about 15dB if possible.
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post #51317 of 62726
3/4/12 at 1:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Q-Authority View Post

Out of curiosity, do you recall how tightly you used to screw the microphone onto your camera tripod?... I learned this early on, and thereafter made a point of only very loosely placing the mic onto my tripod. It made a big improvement.

Not recommended. If you want to isolate the mic, put something under the tripod feet. A piece of yoga mat or carpet might do it. The pro mic comes with an vibration-damped mic holder and vibration-damped rubber feet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zzoli View Post

Very tightly. I thought it shouldn't move on the top of the tripod. I'll try your method next weekend.

See above. BTW, are you using a calibrated mic for REW or the Audyssey mic?
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post #51318 of 62726
3/4/12 at 2:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

The usual advice is to run the sub calibration first, then run Audyssey 'over the top of it'. That way, you get a pretty good calibration using PBK and Audyssey will be the 'icing on the cake' and will have less work to do. If PBK got you a 'perfect' calibration from the get-go (completely flat for example) them Audyssey would add nothing to it. If PBK got close to flat, then Audyssey stands a good chance of correcting it to flat.

This is very true. And, in addition, Audyssey does "phase" or "time" correction that virtually every other EQ system does not do. Hence you get a parametric EQ from the PBK which can't hurt and on top of that you get some additional amplitude (parametric) EQ AND phase/time correction from Audyssey. The phase/time correction from Audyssey is not the same as the simple phase control that many subs have. That system retards the phase of the sub across its total bandwidth. The Audyssey EQ corrects the phase of the sub at the crossover (to match the satellites) and corrects the phase at lower frequencies to compensate for room effects and the natural sub group delay.
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post #51319 of 62726
3/4/12 at 2:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

IMHO, if driving the mains woofer beyond it's linear region is problematic, then the eunduser was not careful enough when planning the system prior to purchasing the speakers in relation to avr power out and room size. Meantime, IMHO, driving the mains woofer beyond it's linear region IS gonna be problematic, something not to be done or just live with it until buying better capable speakers.

I agree fully. However, many end users will not put in the time and effort to get this right or will be miss-led by a salesman or will need to accommodate a WAF limitation. Pushing the crossover up may be a sufficient solution.

I just wonder how prevalent this problem is. Maybe it's not an issue. However, in my 1200+ square foot "great room" with 12+ foot ceiling, Audyssey wants to set my center and surrounds with a 60 Hz XO. The center has two 6" woofers and the surrounds have one each. They are okay speakers (Klipsch) but I don't trust them to do the job at 60 Hz so I push the XO up to 80 or 100 Hz.

Even if they will do the job, pushing them to their limits could have me ordering replacement drivers some day. Not fun.

I just posted on an Audyssey.com blog to get Chris K's reaction.
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post #51320 of 62726
3/4/12 at 2:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BigCoolJesus View Post

Hey guys,

Been playing with the placement of my main speakers and wanted some opinions. I have a 92" projection screen with the mains currently positioned directly on either side of the screen and toed in towards MLP. My seating is one row of three seats centered on the screen about 9ft away. I have room to spare on either side of the screen to space the mains out further so the soundstage isn't so narrow.

Does anyone know if there is a recommended distance/equation to determine distance the mains should be in relation to the sides of the screen for movies? Is it better to have a wide or narrow soundstage for movies?

Just trying to get a feel if the speakers should be as close as possible to the sides of the screen to match up perfectly with what's happening in the movie......or if having a wider soundstage (moving speakers further to the sides) is more suggested for better envelopment during movies?

Thanks for your input/thoughts.

BCJ,

You have gotten some good advice, but I suggest one other minor consideration. I understand that speakers are designed with the expectation that they will be a certain distance from the wall behind them and will not be boxed in at the sides. I.e., they won't have cabinets on either side flush with the front of the speaker. Chris K of Audyssey has spoken of this problem in particular re the center channel which often is shrouded by a cabinet or table top.

If your screen is a ridged structure and the fronts of your mains will be flush with the screen, having them close to the screen will pretty much violate these tenets. The manuals for your speakers may suggest they not be boxed in.

I would not suggest violating the general rules others have suggested, at least not to a great extent, but, if practicable, having a foot between the mains and the screen would be desirable.
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post #51321 of 62726
3/4/12 at 4:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


IMHO, if driving the mains woofer beyond it's linear region is problematic, then the eunduser was not careful enough when planning the system prior to purchasing the speakers in relation to avr power out and room size. Meantime, IMHO, driving the mains woofer beyond it's linear region IS gonna be problematic, something not to be done or just live with it until buying better capable speakers.

You know every octave deeper requires four times the excursion to be equally loud. Every speaker or sub will by birtue of having a ginite linear excursion stop keeping up at lower frequencies at some point. I think it is appropriate to balance those issues in a bass managed system. I don't probably want to fit speakers that could cleanly and without compression play below 60 Hz in my room - if I wanted ref level playback.
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post #51322 of 62726
3/4/12 at 9:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Not recommended. If you want to isolate the mic, put something under the tripod feet. A piece of yoga mat or carpet might do it. The pro mic comes with an vibration-damped mic holder and vibration-damped rubber feet.


See above. BTW, are you using a calibrated mic for REW or the Audyssey mic?

When I used a mic it was the Audyssey microphone. I was interested in the relative differences with and without Audyssey graphs so in that regard I think any microphone would do.
Then I found this topic:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1328136

Most recent measurements were sub-preout, no microphone used.
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post #51323 of 62726
3/5/12 at 12:39am
Thank you however the £700 price tag put me off. I thought the pro system was mainly software and that price make adobe CS5 look a bargain lol.

I will just do with the built in checker, the reason i had considered stepping up was as i have been thinking about adding some small room treatment steps.

My system is in a do all room not dedicated and there fore it needs to look ok as well as sound good.

Do you by any chance know which is the correct forum for room treatment chat please?

Thanks again

Allan

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjf_uk View Post

If you are interested, I could PM you the details?
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post #51324 of 62726
3/5/12 at 5:04am
Can we revisit MultiEQ and the low freq hipass. Im trying to figure how to EQ my sealed subs before i run Audyssey to get the most out of their FR ability.

Is it true that there is a 10hz hipass ? That woulds work if it is....Search function churned up everything but...
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post #51325 of 62726
3/5/12 at 5:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Can we revisit MultiEQ and the low freq hipass. Im trying to figure how to EQ my sealed subs before i run Audyssey to get the most out of their FR ability.

Is it true that there is a 10hz hipass ? That woulds work if it is....Search function churned up everything but...

There is no high pass filter applied by Audyssey MultEQ.
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post #51326 of 62726
3/5/12 at 5:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post

Can we revisit MultiEQ and the low freq hipass. Im trying to figure how to EQ my sealed subs before i run Audyssey to get the most out of their FR ability.

Is it true that there is a 10hz hipass ? That woulds work if it is....Search function churned up everything but...

I've wondered the same, is there a high pass put in place by XT32? I could answer this with REW but I am not up to getting everything setup at this time.
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post #51327 of 62726
3/5/12 at 5:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

I've wondered the same, is there a high pass put in place by XT32? If so, how should I set my miniDSPs high pass? I could answer this with REW but I am not up to getting everything setup at this time.

No HPF. Very obvious from this REW measurement from sub pre out.
LL
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post #51328 of 62726
3/5/12 at 5:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickardl View Post

No HPF. Very obvious from this REW measurement from sub pre out.

Thank you very much. I'll keep my HPF as it is.
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post #51329 of 62726
3/5/12 at 5:42am
As far as I can recall, he XO's in the AVR's (high and low pass) are set by the AVR/Manufacture, not by Audyssey. Audyssey just reports the -3db point to the AVR, but the manufacture sets the XO's. So, it would be up to the manufacture to add the high-pass option for subs. Audyssey simply does not do any correction below the -3db point.
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post #51330 of 62726
3/5/12 at 5:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cavchameleon View Post

As far as I can recall, he XO's in the AVR's (high and low pass) are set by the AVR/Manufacture, not by Audyssey. Audyssey just reports the -3db point to the AVR, but the manufacture sets the XO's. So, it would be up to the manufacture to add the high-pass option for subs. Audyssey simply does not do any correction below the -3db point.

Not talking about the crossover, I was talking about the high pass on my sub and whether Audyssey imposed one of its own. This was answered and thank you once again.
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)