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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1728

post #51811 of 62738
3/15/12 at 8:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

The question was worded as you originally asked ... and the answer was that 2 stickied Audyssey threads won't be permitted. As already mentioned, a 2nd Audyssey thread would be too confusing and result in double posting ... not the desired end result. Keith will be developing the FAQ inside of this thread and then at some point may place it in a dedicated "locked" thread, as once locked, cannot be accessed without a mod's intervention.

Once again, I NEVER suggested 2 stickied Audyssey related threads. From Day 1, my recommendation was always to create a new stickied thread specifically for the FAQ and setup questions and unsticky THIS current thread.

Title them appropriately so they're easily distinguishable between one for questions regarding Audyssey setup and use vs. this current thread where the topics are much more in-depth and diverse. Direct any setup questions in this thread to the FAQ thread, and direct any acoustic theory questions in that thread to this one (in just the same fashion that general Audyssey questions are answered but Denon specific feature questions are referred to the Denon threads for that particular model).

I guess these concepts must be a lot harder to understand than I'd initially assumed. I don't see this current solution working out very well for very long.


Max
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post #51812 of 62738
3/15/12 at 9:09pm
^^
Sorry, my mistake. My post was in reply to CraigJohn's post which was "dual" stickied threads. Your suggestion is understood; however, as Keith has been deligated to be the "admin" of the FAQ, as he already noted, this thread will remain "stickied" and he will start developing the FAQ section.
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post #51813 of 62738
3/15/12 at 9:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdsmoothie View Post

^^
That would be 85db; however, if the AVR used a 85db test tone it would be extremely loud, so a 75db "test" tone is used instead.

What would be 85db? I am still not understanding this...
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post #51814 of 62738
3/15/12 at 9:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by KtrainHurricane View Post

Sorry if this is a repeated (or stupid) question, but I have an Onkyo TX-NR709 and I read in the manual that when the receiver's volume is set to 0 db (relative), it is outputting volume at "THX reference level" (??).

Does this mean that it is outputting sound at 83 db, or 75 db? --> my understanding is that 83 db is "true" reference level, but then I do not understand why when calibrating with Audyssey it tells me to set the subwoofer to 75 db...

Basically, the THX Reference standard calls for average SPLs of 85db with 30db of headroom for a maximum per-channel SPL of 105db in the satellites (+10db for a maximum of 115db for the LFE channel).

Audyssey originally used an 85db test tone for the calibration, but received numerous complaints about how loud the calibration tones were (especially since many users performed the calibrations at night when their room was quietest), so Audyssey switched to using a 75db test tone for the calibration (perceptually half as loud and much more tolerable).

So there you have it. The avr sends a series of 75db chirps to each speaker and subwoofer. It measures the actual SPL received by the calibration mic at the MLP (Main Listening Position). If the result at the MLP for a particular speaker is 71db, the avr's trim for that speaker will be set at +4db. If the mic reads an SPL of 77db for another speaker, the trim value is set to -2db.

Since subwoofers usually have volume knobs, the calibration process asks the user to set the sub's volume knob to a position where the mic reads closest to 75db at the MLP before continuing the calibration.


Max
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post #51815 of 62738
3/16/12 at 2:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Yes, I would definitely raise the speaker above the oven if you choose to go that route. You need to have a clear line of sight to the tweeter and midrange divers in the speaker. Blocking them with an oven would be bad.

As for the pro-calibration, that would be for someone else to answer as I don't have a pro-capable avr at the moment, so I haven't tried it.

And no, I've never had a Radeon card.
Max

1. I dont mean line of sight to listener is blocked. Door will be closed I mean that there is not a free line of sight from the front speakers to the wide speakers and since it is supposed to handle room reflections I guess if the reflection from the front bounce in the oven there will be a timing issue (i refer to wide speaker on the left side in picture A between oven and door). If i raise it the tweeters for fronts and wides will be at different heights (about 30-40cm) which is not acc to DSX spec, so wonder what is worst

2. Out of intrest, which reciever do you have. I plan on the Integra 80.3 pre, could be that there is a difference in how good it handles assymetrical setups?


3. Ok, good to know. Think his name was only DjBlu (not Max in the end)

Thanks
Boogie

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post #51816 of 62738
3/16/12 at 4:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

If a FAQ thread was stickied and locked I also think it would be the best case scenario. But two running threads is probably not a good idea IMO.

Keith, a suggestion for the FAQ: "Who is Gary J. and if I make any changes to settings have I really lost any chance of hearing 'reference' playback?"

Your worst nightmare and depends on the changes.

Good time for some perspective for newbies. When you have someone doing a definitive Audyssey FAQ who is amazed that different mic positions gives different results and believes that it is an Audyssey "problem" realize that -

Your first resource should be the excellent Audyssey Setup Guide. Written by those of us here at the time under the watchful eye of Chris from Audyssey.

Your next resource should be Ask Audyssey at the Audyssey site for the best answers.

Just IMO.
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post #51817 of 62738
3/16/12 at 5:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Your worst nightmare and depends on the changes.

Good time for some perspective for newbies. When you have someone doing a definitive Audyssey FAQ who is amazed that different mic positions gives different results and believes that it is an Audyssey "problem" realize that -

Your first resource should be the excellent Audyssey Setup Guide. Written by those of us here at the time under the watchful eye of Chris from Audyssey.

Your next resource should be Ask Audyssey at the Audyssey site for the best answers.

Just IMO.

Thx Gary! So what you're saying is that they are the "reference" references?
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post #51818 of 62738
3/16/12 at 5:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Thx Gary! So what you're saying is that they are the "reference" references?

By George, I think you've got it!
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post #51819 of 62738
3/16/12 at 6:54am
Audyssey FAQ updated. 5 additional FAQs added.
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post #51820 of 62738
3/16/12 at 6:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post

I have this feature on my 4311Ci and I set both subs to 75Db (square turns Blue) and my trim levels are still -9.5 on sub #1 and -10.5 on sub#2, The volume is below 25%.

Another question, I think this was stated back a few threads but I cant find it LOL!! When say I want to raise my sub trim levels 3Db...if I do this for each sub that will be 6Db but if I go to where it says sub 1+2 it will only be 3Db....I raised the subs 3db with the 1+2 feature and both trim levels on sub #1 and Sub #2 still went up as normal like it would if I did them seperate?

I think this is a specific Denon question and I am afraid I don't know the Denon features very well. Maybe someone can chime in. Generally, once you decide to raise the sub trims from where Audyssey set them you are entering preference land, so whatever sounds good to you is good. No need to sweat it.
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post #51821 of 62738
3/16/12 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Po-TAY-to, po-TAH-to ... me too.

And thanks, Keith, for your efforts. It is much appreciated.

Jeff

No problemo Señor Jeff. It's good to give something back in exchange for all the help I have been given so freely here.
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post #51822 of 62738
3/16/12 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

I don't see this current solution working out very well for very long.

You may well be right, long term. What I'm proposing is that I do the FAQ within this thread for now and once it is 'complete' in the sense that no changes have been made for a while, to then transfer it to a new thread which is locked. Then, for the occasional future change, I can ask the Mods to unlock it for me to edit. I a really concerned about two threads in case it just caused confusion. I like your idea of having an 'Audyssey Setup Issues' thread (the FAQ thread) and an 'Audyssey Advanced Users' thread, but generally the idea of two threads does concern me. I can see the arguments for each concept with equal merits which makes it very hard to decide which is best of course

Having the FAQ within this thread also perhaps makes it easier for current regulars to cast their eye over it now and then to check it for errors and omissions. Every time I update the FAQ I will post a note to that effect.

It will take a few weeks to do all the FAQs and perhaps we can then revisit the issue of where it lives long term?
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post #51823 of 62738
3/16/12 at 7:12am
You think this new effort is duplicative?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Your worst nightmare and depends on the changes.

Good time for some perspective for newbies. When you have someone doing a definitive Audyssey FAQ who is amazed that different mic positions gives different results and believes that it is an Audyssey "problem" realize that -

Your first resource should be the excellent Audyssey Setup Guide. Written by those of us here at the time under the watchful eye of Chris from Audyssey.

Your next resource should be Ask Audyssey at the Audyssey site for the best answers.

Just IMO.
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post #51824 of 62738
3/16/12 at 7:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Good time for some perspective for newbies. When you have someone doing a definitive Audyssey FAQ who is amazed that different mic positions gives different results and believes that it is an Audyssey "problem" realize that -

Gary J, you are as charming as ever. However, quoting out of context, or downright misquoting does you no service. I am not in the least surprised that different mic positions give different results (let alone 'amazed'). If you had read any of my many posts on the subject of mic positions, you would know this of course.

If you care to volunteer to help with the compilation of the FAQ, and to bring all of your experience and communications skills to bear on it, I would be very grateful.
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post #51825 of 62738
3/16/12 at 7:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Thx Gary! So what you're saying is that they are the "reference" references?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

By George, I think you've got it!

But unfortunately, you didn't!
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post #51826 of 62738
3/16/12 at 7:31am
You know, Guys, when I tried to talk about proper speaker setup prior to running Audyssey (the so-called cold setting) this is what I meant everyone should avoid: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1399355

So many mistakes can be easily spotted here.

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post #51827 of 62738
3/16/12 at 7:31am
Quote:
Originally Posted by robc1976 View Post

I have this feature on my 4311Ci and I set both subs to 75Db (square turns Blue) and my trim levels are still -9.5 on sub #1 and -10.5 on sub#2, The volume is below 25%.

What's the question? You have very efficient subs which the AVR must attenuate to get to -75db. Listen as set for a few weeks (to adjust to what the mixer intended) and if you still want to raise the sub trim do so at that time on the AVR.
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post #51828 of 62738
3/16/12 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

Basically, the THX Reference standard calls for average SPLs of 85db with 30db of headroom for a maximum per-channel SPL of 105db in the satellites (+10db for a maximum of 115db for the LFE channel).

Audyssey originally used an 85db test tone for the calibration, but received numerous complaints about how loud the calibration tones were (especially since many users performed the calibrations at night when their room was quietest), so Audyssey switched to using a 75db test tone for the calibration (perceptually half as loud and much more tolerable).

So there you have it. The avr sends a series of 75db chirps to each speaker and subwoofer. It measures the actual SPL received by the calibration mic at the MLP (Main Listening Position). If the result at the MLP for a particular speaker is 71db, the avr's trim for that speaker will be set at +4db. If the mic reads an SPL of 77db for another speaker, the trim value is set to -2db.

Since subwoofers usually have volume knobs, the calibration process asks the user to set the sub's volume knob to a position where the mic reads closest to 75db at the MLP before continuing the calibration.


Max

Max - this is a great reply to a question I have seen here on a fair number of occasions in one guise or another. With your permission, I would like to lift your excellent reply wholesale and add it to the FAQ.
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post #51829 of 62738
3/16/12 at 7:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Max - this is a great reply to a question I have seen here on a fair number of occasions in one guise or another. With your permission, I would like to lift your excellent reply wholesale and add it to the FAQ.

Just to note, it's 85 dB with 20 dB of headroom.
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post #51830 of 62738
3/16/12 at 8:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Just to note, it's 85 dB with 20 dB of headroom.

Of course. Thanks. Good spot.
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post #51831 of 62738
3/16/12 at 9:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Just to note, it's 85 dB with 20 dB of headroom.

And, FWIW, the test "chirps" are at -X DBVS (and rising if noise floor is too high). Assuming the first is at -30dBFS, whether that results in 75 dB in room during the test depends on speaker efficiency, gain structure of the AVR and distance from the speakers (it's why Audyssey and the AVR set the levels after the chirps). FOr those folks with efficient speakers that get set at -10dB, the chirps, if at -30dBFS, would be 85 dB loud in room.

Perhaps cleaner to say that Audyssey sends test chirps at a known digital level.
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post #51832 of 62738
3/16/12 at 9:10am
Keith, how would you like to receive feedback on your FAQ's? Would a PM be appropriate? I assume that you want constructive feedback...
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post #51833 of 62738
3/16/12 at 9:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by allsop4now View Post

The room is an issue but unfortunately there is little acceptance for room treatments as this is our living room.

I'm considering adding another identical sub-woofer (SVS SB12-NSD) and with XT there are restrictions like symmetrical (with respect to MLP or room?) placement and same distance to MLP as far as I understand after various reading.

In my room that means that the sub-woofers have to be place alongside the front speakers. Currently the single sub-woofer is placed 20 inches away from a corner as this gives better bass at MLP than other WAF placements.

With few options for sub-woofer placement, should I add another sub-woofer when using XT or go for XT32 with no extra sub-woofer but perhaps added in the future?

I also listen to multichannel SACD.

Further details:

The room is 18 feet by 11 feet 4 inches, have drywalls, concrete ceiling and hardwood floor with large parts covered with carpets. One side wall have windows with curtains partly covering them.

The speakers are good (Canton Vento, smallest tower but largest surround and center, approximate MSRP of $7500) and a SVS SB12-NSD sub-woofer. The crossover is set to 80Hz in the receiver.

There is only one placement of speakers that works in the living room: The front speakers are placed on a long wall that has a door at one end, are 10 inches from the back wall and more than 3 feet from closest sidewall. However, both surrounds are placed 3 inches from the back wall pointed at MLP but one surround is placed in a corner.

Distance from MLP to backwall is 20 inches.

Audyssey reports the following distances:

FL 8.9 ft
FR 8.8 ft
C 8.0 ft
SL 7.0 ft (very close to backwall)
SR 6.0 ft (very close to backwall, and also is in a corner, sad to say)

Bump.

Any opinions as to buy an extra sub-woofer using XT but restricted placement, or a new receiver with XT32?
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post #51834 of 62738
3/16/12 at 9:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Keith, how would you like to receive feedback on your FAQ's? Would a PM be appropriate? I assume that you want constructive feedback...

By PM please AJ. To avoid cluttering the thread with posts just about the FAQ.
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post #51835 of 62738
3/16/12 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by allsop4now View Post

Bump.

Any opinions as to buy an extra sub-woofer using XT but restricted placement, or a new receiver with XT32?

It's a tricky call IMO. There's no doubt that there are huge benefits to be gained from running dual subs. And huge benefits from switching to XT32. Which is most important to you?

Benefits of dual subs - smoother in-room response with less seat to seat variance. If you want great bass across the whole room, then dual subs is a goods idea. If you are primarily concerned with one seat, maybe dual subs is lower on your priority list.

Benefits of XT32 - way, way better EQ potential with the bass than XT can manage. So your one sub will benefit immediately from XT32. Also, XT32 has benefits in the mid and HF regions over and above those conferred by XT. You should find with XT32 that your imaging improves, along with greater clarity and a more detailed soundstage. You will also find that the front/surround integration is better with XT32.

If it was me, I would go for XT32 first. It has many advantages and will improve the sound of your existing sub. If later you get a second sub, XT32 will work far better with it than XT because XT32 measures the delays and levels of each sub individually and then EQs them as a pair. XT doesn't really handle dual subs all that well. So, for me at least, the best upgrade path would be XT32 first, then the second sub.
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post #51836 of 62738
3/16/12 at 9:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by allsop4now View Post

Bump.

Any opinions as to buy an extra sub-woofer using XT but restricted placement, or a new receiver with XT32?

If you are not able to place subs optimally for aesthetic/space reasons, XT 32 will better deal with that reality. But it's better for other reasons as well.

Sorry your previous question got lost in the shuffle!

Jeff

edit: Damn, beaten by the limey.
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post #51837 of 62738
3/16/12 at 9:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by allsop4now View Post


Bump.

Any opinions as to buy an extra sub-woofer using XT but restricted placement, or a new receiver with XT32?

Although there's no definitive answer to your question, I would buy the 2nd sub and measuring gear to set them up properly in your room. For acoustic problems associated with most rooms a properly integrated 2nd sub will provide a bigger benefit than going from XT to XT32 IMO. I'm not sure where you read all those restrictions on placement, but most of them are not accurate. Although a lot of rules-of-thumb are thrown around, it is the unique acoustics of your room that will determine optimal placement and sub levels.

Edit: beat by both of you, lol. I am a proponent of multiple subs before EQ, but it is not the only approach as you can see .
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post #51838 of 62738
3/16/12 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Although there's no definitive answer to your question, I would buy the 2nd sub and measuring gear to set them up properly in your room. For acoustic problems associated with most rooms a properly integrated 2nd sub will provide a bigger benefit than going from XT to XT32 IMO. I'm not sure where you read all those restrictions on placement, but most of them are not accurate. Although a lot of rules-of-thumb are thrown around, it is the unique acoustics of your room that will determine optimal placement and sub levels.

Edit: beat by both of you, lol. I am a proponent of multiple subs before EQ, but it is not the only approach as you can see .

Yea, it's not the second sub per se that will reduce room modes, it is the placement of both subs. Absent the option of placing both optimally, I would pick the best SINGLE spot and COLLOCATE BOTH at that spot.
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post #51839 of 62738
3/16/12 at 10:04am
FAQ updated. Changes made to mic placement section. Thanks Austin Jerry.
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post #51840 of 62738
3/16/12 at 10:08am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Yea, it's not the second sub per se that will reduce room modes, it is the placement of both subs. Absent the option of placing both optimally, I would pick the best SINGLE spot and COLLOCATE BOTH at that spot.

I agree. If truly limited placement options and no measuring gear then that is probably the best approach.

But it seems the OP is under the impression that the subs need to be equidistant to the LP with XT and that's why he has limited placement options. Not too clear though. To the OP: the subs do not have to be equidistant to the LP.

A big difference in my mind between Audyssey and a second sub(aside from headroom) is that a 2nd sub can correct HUGE nulls. Big nulls are like Kryptonite to Audyssey - its rendered powerless. Of course, how much benefit that is depends entirely on whether the OP's room has huge nulls that need correction.
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