"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1735

Originally Posted by ggsantafe

Denon's are not THX certified, so there is no mention in the Denon Owner manual of THX settings. Likewise there is also no mention of the Re-EQ offset for Denon owners. Just pointing out what Austin Jerry was referring to in his post about Onkyo specific terminology, not trying to debate the concept of THX reference

Originally Posted by jdsmoothie

The flagship models, Denon 5308CI and AVP are both THX Ultra2 certified. Both use Audyssey XT and can be upgraded to XT32.

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

OK thanks - for clarification, Denon AVRs don't have DSP modes then such as THX Cinema?

Whether they are THX certified or not, of course, they will still use Audyssey with the prime objective of Audyssey which is to set a system up so that at 0dB on the MV it is playing at THX Reference level. I can’t see how that is AVR-specific (assuming the AVR has Audyssey MultEQ).

Originally Posted by JHAz

Keith, amazing work so far.

Originally Posted by JHAz

Most of the Denon receivers will not Have THX re-EQ or other THX based DSP.

Originally Posted by JHAz

AFAIK, all the Denons denote the 2 Audyssey curves as "audyssey" and "Audyssey Flat."

Originally Posted by JHAz

IDK who invented reference, but reference is certainly the same thing on the non-THX Denons as on Onkyos. Denon, of course, does not refer to THX reference . . . nor, IIRC does Audyssey itself. THey just call it "reference level."

Originally Posted by JHAz

FWIW, I think it's potentially confusing to call 85 dB "average." 85 dB is how loud each speaker should be when playing back bandwidth limited pink noise at -20DbFS. I've never seen FilmMixer or anybody else in the business suggest that reference levels tell them anything about how loud "average" ought to be. They do of course place an upper limit on SPL per speaker. A person could pop in V for Vendetta (dialog averages below 80 dB at reference) and think they're improperly calibrated if they're looking fo the SPL meter to show 85 dB at some particular point in the movie.

Originally Posted by JHAz

It might (or might not) be worth mentioning that ARs made before the advent of DynamicEQ (at least, as I understand it, in the Denon line) attempt to make zero on the MV equal to reference, because reference level was not important to any of the pre-DEQ Audyssey technologies. Might say something like "Note: the Audyssey calibration process on older receivers without DynamicEQ may not result in setting the speaker outputs to equal reference levels at master vloume setting = 0."

Originally Posted by mogorf

Here's another interesting thread on: "Why most of Denon's are not THX certified"

Tip: look for post by batpig and Goatse!!

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

OK thanks - for clarification, Denon AVRs don't have DSP modes then such as THX Cinema? EDIT: I just checked - a couple do but I am surprised to discover that most don't, including my 'favourite', the 4311.

I spotted something called 'Cinema EQ' in the specs which I take to be Denon's own version of RE-Eq or something like it.

Do Denons have user-selectable Audyssey Reference or Flat curves, like the latest Onkyo's Audyssey Movie/Music curves?

If they have a user-selectable Reference curve then that already has the HF rollof, so without any THX modes, I can't quite see the purpose of Cinema EQ.

Maybe it's best to delete the reference to THX and call it just 'Reference Level' - that way nobody with a Denon can be confused into thinking it doesn't apply to them.

Originally Posted by kbarnes701


Hi AJ - I am being slow today - which topics are Onkyo-specific?

Originally Posted by notnyt


Denon released a hardware/firmware upgrade for the 5308. That is all that changed. in my setup, so XT to XT32 here.

Originally Posted by notnyt

Except it kind of sucks with XT32 from what I'm seeing.


The first graph here is raw response of a sealed system compared to Audyssey XT32, the second graph is the same system after being EQ'd MiniDSP, then running XT32. I had better results with standard XT, displayed in the third graph. Fortunately, I have a MiniDSP which I used to EQ my subs flat before running audyssey which presented me with some better results, shown in the second graph. Audyssey really had to stretch for this one


Yellow is after Audyssey XT32, green is raw response without Audyssey.


Blue is MiniDSP only, red is MiniDSP then Audyssey XT32


This is an older graph from before I upgraded my receiver with Denon to support XT32. Yellow is raw, green is after running Audyssey XT

Originally Posted by Gooddoc

As I said earlier, there have been numerous firmware issues during initial rollouts. Given the general experience that XT32 is typically superior to XT leads me to suspect a firmware issue could be at fault here. After all, you have XT and XT32 graphs to compare and its not looking too good for XT32. I'm fairly confident Audyssey technical support would love to see those graphs.

Originally Posted by Gooddoc

As I said earlier, there have been numerous firmware issues during initial rollouts. Given the general experience that XT32 is typically superior to XT leads me to suspect a firmware issue could be at fault here. After all, you have XT and XT32 graphs to compare and its not looking too good for XT32. I'm fairly confident Audyssey technical support would love to see those graphs.

Originally Posted by hclarkx

I think your results are not difficult to explain. In the first graph you do not see Audyssey raising the sub level at the low end because Audyssey does not EQ to flat below the -3 db point. Your -3 db point is fairly obvious in this graph. Keep in mind that Audyssey is used by thousands of users and has to be safe from a liability standpoint. Forcing higher output below the - 3db point could destroy a subwoofer driver that does not have the Xmax to achieve flat below that.

In the second graph there was not much for XT to do, so it didn't do much.

In the third graph, the results are as expected. It seems no -3 db point was found. The rise at the low end remains because I think XT's does not correct that low.

Though the -3 db point is fairly obvious in your first graph, the reference for the -3db point is determined through a fairly complex look at the sub output over its operating range. Hence in most cases it is very difficult to eyeball the - 3db point as identified by Audyssey.

I've found that shifting the mic locations within the listening bubble can significantly affect where the - 3db point is identified. I've had my system (two 15" drivers per side) left with a -3 db point of 28 Hz and then be flat to 20 Hz by just moving the mics a bit or doing less locations (with XT32).

Another consideration is that Audyssey is trying to provide the best listening experience across the listening bubble. Hence the result at any one position is not a good indication of what Audyssey is doing. Additionally, if you mic, say, 10 locations in the listening bubble you must test exactly those same ten locations and integrate the results to assess exactly what Audyssey is doing. This along explains most complaints about Audyssey not achieving flat response. A truly flat response at multiple listening (or mic'd) locations is not physically possible in a credible theater, home or otherwise.

Tell us, how big is your listening bubble relative to the room size, how many mic locations did you use for the Audyssey setup, and how was your own testing done (number of positions, location relative to Audyssey mic locations, etc.)?

And, of course, your results are far from problematic with or without Audyssey. Your subs are equidistant and it appears you have an excellent room and probably some good room treatments. You haven't left much for Audyssey to help with. Any help Audyssey provides is icing on the cake and is probably limited to spreading any remaining ill effects across the listening bubble so there is no bad seat (though no perfect seat either).

Harrison

Originally Posted by notnyt

The first and third graphs start with identical response, so that pretty much shoots a hole in that theory. Nothing changed between those graphs except XT -> XT32. I tested it with XT32 using one location and multiples. Many runs of each. I've run Audyssey many many times so I'm familiar with the quirks. My -3db point is actually 7.5hz, and what I was expecting to see was more bass cut above 35hz to deal with the rising response typical of sealed enclosures, which it did not do. I'll check for any new firmware updates as well, but I don't think there are any. I'm pretty happy with things as they are. MiniDSP to the rescue.

Anyway, you can see where the subs actually roll off, due to an electronic HPF.

Originally Posted by batpig

the only THX certified Denons with Audyssey are the flagship products as JD noted above. All that stuff we talk about with THX RE-EQ are really Onkyo specific issues and how they implemented it.

Originally Posted by batpig

basically, yeah, it's a legacy tech which they have had for a loooong time to deal with "harsh" soundtracks translated into the home environment. Really an outdated anachronism at this point. Denon is sometimes slow to remove these types of vestigial options, leading to ever more user confusion....

Originally Posted by batpig


Yes, Denons w/ MultEQ have always implemented the Audyssey / Audyssey Flat / Audyssey Bypass L/R selections.

Originally Posted by batpig

Join the club It's just there because... it is.... I suppose there are people who don't use Audyssey who want some method of high-freq roll-off. But anyway, Cinema EQ on Denons really doesn't have anything to do with Audyssey MultEQ.

Originally Posted by batpig


yes, that's how I would do it.

Originally Posted by mogorf

Hi notnyt, I have to confess this is the first time for me to hear about MiniDSP, and sorry for the unsolicited question, but are you really sure you need that device in the food chain when you have Audyssey XT or even XT32 on board?

Originally Posted by notnyt

Yes, it is in line with my subs. Audyssey XT32 alone failed miserably at EQing my subs flat. XT worked much better.

Again, this is before and after XT32



This is before and after XT

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

It sure would. But I don't think I know enough about it to do it myself. Could you (or anyone) give me the gist of it? Thanks.

Originally Posted by notnyt

Yes, it is in line with my subs. Audyssey XT32 alone failed miserably at EQing my subs flat. XT worked much better.

Originally Posted by mogorf

Yes, I've seen these graphs. Arrgh! Nonetheless, while trying to catch up with you, do you mean your system is hooked up like this:

AVR sub line out --> MiniDSP line out --> sub power amp power out --> sub

If I saw correctly on your pictures your subs are not powered subs but you have separate amps with line in level from the AVR and that's where in between you insert the MiniDSP. Do you have 1 MiniDSP for each sub amp?

Originally Posted by pbarach

I don't really understand it, but I googled and found a massive thread about dialogue normalization:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=121087

This is a Dolby metadata instruction to the processor that can't be turned off or modified--I did find that out. It seems to be a way of adjusting the overall master volume level for a particular BluRay disc to bring the dialog to a standard listening level, but it's not a dynamic adjustment that changes as the disc plays. It's a one-time setting as the disc starts. It shows up on the dial of some Denon receivers when the player is bitstreaming the audio to the receiver.

It would appear that this generally introduces an offset to reference level so that "reference level" at 0 dB for home listening will be different than 0 dB in the theater. If this is true, then nobody is actually listening at the same reference level in the home with which movies are mastered...

Originally Posted by pbarach

^^^
"Massive" it's not, when compared to THIS thread. 17 pages.

Originally Posted by kbarnes701

I just had a look. That 'Big Daddy' dude over there usually has very good contributions. bluray.com is one of my most-used sites.

Originally Posted by beastaudio

you got the signal chain these are certainly not plate amps built into the sub cabinets

There are several different types of MiniDSP that you can choose from. I believe Not' has the 2x8 where it can take 2 rca's in, and individually control the 8 rca's out after you EQ the signal.

Originally Posted by mogorf

Interesting! If Not' has the 2x8 MiniDSP kit I suppose he has a signal flow like this:

AVR (Audyssey) on a digital platform --> AVR D/A converter for analog sub out --> MiniDSP RCA IN followed by A/D --> MiniDSP processing on a digital platform --> D/A converter in MiniDSP --> analog line out to each sub power amp...

I wouldn't volunteer to predict what such multiple D/A and A/D convertions with dual DSP'ing can cause, but as Not's results show it seems while XT has no conflict, XT 32 does suffer from such hook-up.

Fingers crossed for Not!

Originally Posted by Toknowshita

Does the Denon version of XT32 have you set the sub gain so it measures 75dB prior to running the speaker pings? IOW have you changed the gain setting on your sub between XT vs XT32?

Originally Posted by pbarach

I don't really understand it, but I googled and found a massive thread about dialogue normalization:
http://forum.blu-ray.com/showthread.php?t=121087

This is a Dolby metadata instruction to the processor that can't be turned off or modified--I did find that out. It seems to be a way of adjusting the overall master volume level for a particular BluRay disc to bring the dialog to a standard listening level, but it's not a dynamic adjustment that changes as the disc plays. It's a one-time setting as the disc starts. It shows up on the dial of some Denon receivers when the player is bitstreaming the audio to the receiver.

It would appear that this generally introduces an offset to reference level so that "reference level" at 0 dB for home listening will be different than 0 dB in the theater. If this is true, then nobody is actually listening at the same reference level in the home with which movies are mastered...

Originally Posted by batpig

I find this article pretty good in explaining the concept:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...on-6-2000.html