"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1789

You can store and recall the Audyssey settings in an Integra, same as you would in an Onkyo.

Cheers,
SB

6. Is it possible to save and recall an Audyssey MultEQ calibration? (click here)

Gothcha, thnx for the clarification. The emoticon simply reflected my confusion, generated in particular by this part: "There were certain speakers that were designed for and certified by THX. 80Hz might still make sense if one were using a full complement of THX speakers,...".

Indeed the default LPF LFE on Denons (and probably most all AV processors) was 80 for many years. Only in the past few years was the default raised to 120Hz on Denons.

FilmMixer has recently commented on another thread that he filters at 80 when mixing, but sets his home processor at 120 Hz to allow other mixers' content to be fully passed.

Somewhere in this thread, I think Roger Dressler said that he has experimented with 80hz for the LFE LP, and preferred it for certain content. I hope I am not mis-remembering that.

Brian

You are not mis-remembering that. And I seem to remember it being on 5.1 music where the engineer let extraneous noises into the LFE channel and setting LPF to 80Hz removed it. I don't recall that he set it there for cinema.

Jeff

Hi Feri,

I just want to clarify one detail about this. With Dolby Digital and DTS, there was no need for an LPF of LFE because those formats brickwall-filtered the LFE channel during recording/encoding. Therefore, there could not be any content above 120 Hz in the LFE channel on those formats. With the introduction of the "lossless" codecs, Dolby TruHD and DTS-Master Audio, the LFE channel became a "full range," (3 Hz to 20 kHz), channel. Therefore, it became possible for recording engineers to place content in the LFE channel well above 120 Hz, either intentionally or unintentionally. Therefore, it became necessary to filter the channel on playback, and that was when the LPF of LFE became mandatory in receivers and pre/pro's with those codec's.

Having said that, there is almost never any content above 80 Hz recorded in the LFE channel. I believe Roger Dressler uses an 80 Hz LPF of LFE because his feeling is that, if there is content in the LFE channel above 80 Hz, it probably *shouldn't* be there and he would prefer it be removed. It would be interesting for Roger to confirm this. It would also be interesting to get filmmixer's thoughts on whether 80 to 120 Hz content is ever intentionally placed in the LFE channel.

Craig

^^^

I had also heard that, for example, let's say you use 80 Hz crossovers for all speakers. If then you set the LFE channel LPF to 120 Hz, then the content from the main speakers to the sub could be out of phase with respect to the LFE content sent to the sub.

I.e., different filters give you different phase shifts for each of the two sets of content.

I think SSPs/AVRs should be smart enough to adjust for that, but that was the argument I've heard in the past.

Advanced Search this thread yields these pertinent (and enlightening!) Dressler posts here, here, here, here.
That's why I've kept mine at 80, BTW, despite the std 120 recommendation.

FilmMixer posts:
Older ones here and here. Recent here.

Hi Craig, thank you for your clarification, appreciate it. And yeah, it would be interesting to hear Roger and Filmmixer on the subject. Especially when the sound engineers mix up to 20 kHz into the 0.1 channel. Can't imagine how that would sound on a sub when all the filters are taken out of the way. BTW, IIRC a sub can easily play up to 2-3 kHz (?) without filters in the chain. Is that right?

Sorry been reading up to page 728 (over the last two days) and am starting to get more confused than anything. I have a few questions.

It states (if possible) to have the first measuring position "behind MLP" if possible. I am guessing this would be behind the back of the couch? Am I reading this correctly? I have always done my first measurement in the actual MLP's position.

Should I have each progressive measurement be two feet away? Or can I have each measurement from the fist position be more (as long as the mic. isn't outside the L/R speaker or close to a wall)? Wouldn't a larger listening "bubble" be better?

As another poster has commented. When I did have rear surrounds connected, I really didn't notice them at all. Even when using Audyssey DSX or other manipulated modes. Is it even worth it? The wife would rather not have wires running the floor if possible.

Sorry for all the newb questions. Any help will be greatly appreciated.

I think many have a gross misconception as to the real difference between a 120Hz vs. 80Hz low pass. Personally I always have found I prefer an 80Hz setting. This isn't the difference of having a low pass or not having one. This is just setting the filter lower. If instead we look at the difference between a 120Hz vs. 80Hz low pass, we see it is in fact a shelf filter. Assuming a 4th order filter, moving to 80Hz has no real effect below 40Hz, reduces the 80Hz level by ~4dB, 100Hz by ~7dB, 120Hz by ~9dB and ultimately reaches -14dB somewhere above 200Hz. If the low pass filter is 2nd order, cut those differences in half.

If you have your subwoofers rising to say 3-6dB above the main speakers, the lower crossover point would have the 80-100Hz range pretty much in line with a flat calibration and a smooth rise below there, which many like the sound of.

In addition to those reasons, I've found that it is easier for me to get a better subwoofer-to-speaker blend when I don't have overlapping bass. Can it be done? Sure. Used to do it myself a long time ago by setting crossovers based on wherever my various speakers rolled off. Trying to get a smooth and seamless blend between my speakers and subwoofers was a chore, with lots of trial and error using a SPL meter and test tones. Ugh!

Switching to a single blending point (crossover), even for LFE content, made things a lot easier. BTW, it doesn't have to be at 80Hz. I based it on two factors: where my speakers started to sound better than my subs AND where I would start to hear directionality. So, for example, if your subs sound better than your speakers up to 100Hz but you start hearing smearing of male vocals (directionality) above 90Hz, then I would compromise and bring the crossover point down.

But that would be my crossover for all channels, including LFE. I'd rather not go through the trouble of getting my subs/sat integration juuuuust right at 80Hz only to have another half octave of bass hanging above the blend point.

The authorities on such things are the FAQs linked below my signature. They are the place to start your reading . . . . I know, it's a bit late for that.


Two feet between measurements is a general rule that provides a pattern that Audyssey recommends. If you are limited to 6 or 8 measurements and have several seats, the two foot rule works well. Personally I use from 12" to 18" with four or five measurements around my seat (the MLP) and three around my wife's seat (her head is just 3' from mine).

A number of us have found that keeping the measurements grouped around the most important seat(s) is most effective. If you extend the measurements into areas where nobody will sit, or areas that will be used infrequently, you may pick up room modes there that don't exist in the important seats and that when corrected degrade the response at the more important seats. Some of us only mic one or two seats.


My personal experience is that rear sounds are quite ineffective since even 6.1 content is rare and the receiver modes that try to create rear surround content are relatively ineffective and may even be disturbing.


No problem.

I haven't been able to keep up with this thread, so I hope I'm not rehashing something that has been covered recently. But, here are some things that I picked up from the Audyssey Facebook page recently. Some of these are relevant to things that have been discussed here in recent weeks. Is there anything new for the FAQ here?

Re crossover choice.

If you have just one sub, a lower crossover gives you the benefit of woofers in two mains at two different locations and likely smoother response down to that XO.

If you have a version of MultEQ that does not EQ the sub, use a lower XO so you will have the benefit of EQ'd sound down to the lower limit of your mains capability.

Too hot high-end.

If Audyssey EQ's to a too hot high end it's probably due to a damaged mic. Another reason may be electrostatic speakers that produce horizontal lobes with the mic vertical position between two lobes. Another is mic positions too far off-axis indicating a weak tweeter.

Sub distance shorter than actual.

Typically caused by vibrations from the sub reaching the mic support.

Blend presents a dip at the XO.

On April 11 Chris addressed a "dip at the XO" problem. Swapping the phase of the sub fixed it. When asked about a sub polarity warning from Audyssey, Chris said "Recently we are seeing some AVR makers (Onkyo) doing away with displaying the warning." (Didn't lack of a warning come up a week ago?)

Chris recommended against dialing in the sub with its phase control. He said "What's really needed is a group delay adjustment that changes phase as a function of frequency." Maybe Group delay is an SQ issue?

The fellow with the XO dip problem said he moved his sub and the problem went away.

Also, Chris reiterated his frequent suggestion to not trust a single measurement when judging whether the sub-satellite blend is good.

The above is FWIW .....

No - the first position is the most important because Audyssey sets levels and distances from that. I suggest you read the Audyssey 101 in the FAQ:

** First Time Audyssey User? Follow This Audyssey 101! **


There are several parts of the FAQ that may help you. This particular issue is covered here:

3. Where should I position the mic for best results? (click here)



Were your rear surrounds positioned properly? Side surrounds are best at 90 degrees to 110 degrees from the MLP and rear surrounds directly behind with some distance between the MLP and the speakers. On both Dolby and Audyssey's websites there are charts showing ideal speaker locations.

Most of the time you aren't really supposed to notice them.


I wouldn't want to be without mine, which are effective and only disturbing when they are supposed to be.

The sub distance tweak works in this fashion.

Like Dolby PL2x? Wow, fooled me.

Question:

Forgive me if this already answered, but when adjusting phase/distance of side surround to correctly image between it and the front mains, which processing do you use if you are running DSX wides? In other words do you run the DSX wide when setting the phase/distance or defeat that channel? If you defeat the wide then it might throw off the total image when dsx is running it, right?

So would you then correctly set the image between right and right wide with pink noise to the right channel only and then treat right and right wide as a single speaker when setting the image between R and surround R?

Can I do Audyssey setup in the morning with birds chirping outside my house, with cars passing by occasionally? Will it seriously affect the result?

Unless you get an Excessive Noise error message you have a good calibration.

If there is a problem, Audyssey will warn you, raise the level of the chirps and try again.

See the FAQ here for more info:

2. Why does Audyssey report ‘Ambient Noise Too High’ when I am running the calibration? (click here)

Mark,

Thanks for your valued feedback. I ran two new REW measurement sets. Both are subs only, using the same first 10 measurement points that I use for Audyssey Pro. Measurement set 1 is with Audyssey off, and measurement set 2 is with Audyssey on (DEQ and DVol off).

I have attached a screen shot showing the averaged response for both measurement sets. The results look peculiar. Audyssey does not seem to be able to do anything with the dip at 60 Hz. Audyssey improves response below 60 Hz, and makes it slightly worse above 60 Hz (at least for the subs).

Any feedback you might have would be appreciated (or from anyone else as well, of course).

Hi Jerry, you've done a nice job, indeed.

Meantime, please allow me some feedback on that "ugly" dip at 60 Hz. Looking at the second graph (subs only, Audyssey on) it shows a huge "S-shape" level swing from 50 Hz to 70 Hz.

- at 50 Hz -> 80 dB
- at 60 Hz -> 65 dB (-15 dB down)
- at 70 Hz -> 83 dB (+18 dB up)

OK, so this is what the graph shows.

Now, can you do a listening test at your MLP as follows? In REW turn on Generator, select Log Sweep, start at say 40 Hz, end at say 80 Hz, duration 60 sec (long enough for careful listening), and listen carefully. Listen whether you can verify by ear that dip at 60 Hz in the graph or not. What I'm curious about is whether the REW graph really represents what we hear or a real life listening test gives a smoother response in that area in regards of an audible level drop at 60 Hz.

Hope its not too much to ask.

Thanks for the valued feedback, Feri. I have my REW kit set up today and I will conduct the test you recommend. Let's see what it reveals! More later...

Can the Audyssey setup microphones be used for older receivers? I have a Denon 3806 that I cannot find the original setup microphone for. I do have the setup microphone for the Denon AVR-3808ci, AVR-1610 and AVR-1612.

^^
Depends on the model, but no, not in your case as each one of the below models has a different mic calibration file as shown:

3806: DM-S205 (hockey puck style)
3808: DM-A405 (tower style)
1610, 1612: DM-A409 (tower style)

There are several listings for the DM-S205 on ebay ---> http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=dm+s205

I'd call denon directly with that question.

DJ, listen to JD.....

See the FAQ for more information:

4. Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro? (click here)