"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1817

note: every implementation of xt32 will "eq" the subwoofers as one... with good reason...

2nd note: even with physical equidistant positioning, "we" have proven in the pro thread (an a few others as well) that it can be beneficial to the final result if the user plays with delays, and those delays don't always come out "equal"...

imo... it's not relevant if the user only has 1 sub (obviously)... it may be relevant if they have 2, depending on how much follow up tweaking/work they put into it, regardless of physical positioning... dealing with frequencies that are dominated by room modes (vs. radiant energy) can require a different approach at times...

Yup ... like I said ... just as with "XT".

It seemed like you were suggesting that the 818 was not able to EQ "dual" subwoofers.

 

S'right, Chris. My bass has been vastly improved by measuring after running Audyssey and then changing the sub distances to smooth out the response. The actual best choice 'distances' entered bear no relation to a) the Audyssey-calculated distance settings and b) the physical distances in the actual room. AIUI we are changing phase relationships when we change the distance settings and it seems to be *always* beneficial - certainly so in my own case over a number of Pro calibrations.

It is true that the Soundstage Width/Height parameters are just "ganged" volume controls that adjust the level of the width/height speakers up or down. However, some users have tested and it doesn't appear that each step is a full dB increase. On Onkyos they only have a scale from -3 to +3 and it does appear to be a straight dB volume adjustment, whereas on Denons the scale is -10 to +10 as you know. It is probably safe to assume that you get the same -3 to +3dB range but just in smaller increments, but this hasn't been confirmed by measurements as far as I know.

anyway, the bottom line is that it's just a volume control so you can increase/decrease the relative presence of the DSX speakers.

i think i see the problem. There are extra characters. [URL=" preceeding [URL= shouldn't be there.

I suspect operator error. Here's my cut-and-paste to that same question -

2. What is the difference between the various versions of MultEQ? (click here)
Edited by pepar - 6/13/12 at 10:57am

Thanks for the links, Yes isnt large full range ? Anyway for movies I have all my cut offs 10hz higher then what Audyssey sets them at or more and seems to sound really good .

You got it, Jeff - that link works like a charm....

 

Yes large = full range. IE no crossover to the sub/no bass management. Raising the XOs from where Audyssey sets them is fine. Glad it sounds good!

Thanks for your help and yes couldnt be happiier
Edited by TheFactor - 6/13/12 at 4:36pm

In reality, in a 5.1 movie system the speakers should never be set to Large anyway. Setting the main speakers to large bypasses the AVR's bass management for those channels and also bypasses the subwoofer which cost good money and is purpose-designed to handle the low frequencies and high SPLs which movies demand



im a little confused regarding this large small question. i have a Denon avr a100.
If set my speakers to LARGE and choose the 40 60 hz crossover and LFE + MAIN then why is the sub by passed.

my speakers are pretty good, they are Sonus faber Liuto towers and Cremonma center.

^^^

it really isn't relevant how "good" your speakers are...

i have an a100 as well, along with decent speakers... they will produce measured in room response down into the mid 30's... they are crossed at 80...

it could easily be argued (and imo/ime correctly argued) that you should set your xover as high as possible (i.e. until you begin to localize the sub)....

the "why" behind this is in the faq section...

it really isn't relevant how "good" your speakers are...

i have an a100 as well, along with decent speakers... they will produce measured in room response down into the mid 30's... they are crossed at 80...

it could easily be argued (and imo/ime correctly argued) that you should set your xover as high as possible (i.e. until you begin to localize the sub)....

the "why" behind this is in the faq section...

thank for your response

i disagree, i think the main speakers are relevant, im not braging about the speakers, simply pointing out that they are very capable


i did read the faq section. my confusion comes fom the sub being bypassed except for the.1, I thought with XT 32, LFE + MAIN you would recieve the higher resolution calibration in the lower frequecies af all the apeakers.

thank you

With the sub set to LFE + MAIN the sub actually just receives the usual sub channel content (LFE + the content below all speaker crossovers) and has full XT32 filters applied. But with the Main speakers set to Large with the sub set to LFE + MAIN each Main speaker is sent its respective channel's entire, full-range signal. Normally the freqs below the crossover are redirected from the speaker to the sub, but in this case nothing is redirected away, instead it is copied. The speaker has full XT32 filters applied down to the F3 freq. As the freqs below the crossover are duplicated in the main speaker and the sub, this is dubbed "double bass" and generally results in heavier, non-reference bass.
Edited by SoundofMind - 6/14/12 at 3:31am

you should feel free to disagree... it doesn't make you any more correct....

there are good sound reasons for not doing what you are doing, and as stated, the quality of the speakers is not relevant...

your room does NOT care how "good" your speakers are... it will impact the sound in the modal area exactly the same way, whether they are 10 dollar specials from walmart or 1,000,000 boutique specials....

believe what you like... basic acoustics are not on your side...

 

If the speakers are set to Large, then you can't also set a crossover for them (but see remarks below wrt to LFE + Main setting). They are either 'large' or 'small'. If the former, then there is no crossover to the sub for obvious reasons and thus the bass management in the AVR is bypassed. If you choose to set them to 'small' (a misnomer as it has nothing at all to do with the physical size of the speakers) and select a crossover than you are a) engaging bass management and b) allowing the purpose-designed subwoofer to handle the bass frequencies below the crossover that you set.

 

WRT to LFE + Main, this setting should never be used as it will give what is called 'double bass'. You have highlighted an omission in the FAQ - I mention LFE + Main and say not to use it but do not give the reasons why. I will amend the FAQ to include an answer specifically on that issue as it has come up more than once. Meantime you can either trust the general advice in this thread about not using it or you can google it and find out why - or others might chime in with a view.

 

EDIT: i have now updated the FAQ. Please follow this link for more information on why it's not a good idea to use LFE + Main:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51780#user_f7

 

No matter how capable your main speakers, they will not reproduce bass as well as a purpose designed sub. The speaker manufacturer may say that the speakers are capable down to 30 Hz or even lower, but the issue is not how low they can go but how low and how loud they can go. Movies demand, at Reference, 115 dB for the bass frequencies and there are virtually no speakers that can deliver 20 Hz at 115dB (unless you have maybe 100 grand to spend on them, and even then it's doubtful). A subwoofer has been specially designed from the outset to deliver that sort of performance and it makes little sense to try to force the main speakers to handle what the sub has been designed to take care of. Also, by trying to force your main speakers to handle 20Hz at 115dB you are requiring a massive effort from your amp or AVR and you are asking the speakers to do the impossible, which also has a negative effect on the upper frequencies which the speaker can handle.

 

Finally, there is a lot of content in many movie tracks at 20Hz. I doubt if your speakers (or most people's) can handle 20Hz at anything like the required SPLs.

 

This answer from the FAQ gives more background on why it is not a good idea to set speakers to large and to bypass bass management:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51780#user_c2

Edited by kbarnes701 - 6/14/12 at 7:19am

Note that Denon/Marantz models still use the crossover setting for front main speakers set to LARGE but are used only when the sub setting is LFE+Main, although in this instance the crossover is really a "copyover".

This is another instance where Denon/Marantz and Onkyo AVR settings differ. On Onkyo models (at least lower/mid level models) speaker settings are either "Full Band" or a specific crossover (eg. 80hz) and "Double Bass" is an actual setting that when enabled "feeds bass sounds from the front left, right, and center channels to the subwoofer" (ie. you have no control over what lower speaker frequencies get sent to the sub). On Denon/Marantz models, the speaker settings are either LARGE or SMALL; however, when a front main speaker is set to LARGE, the crossover is generally set to 40hz such that frequencies 40hz and lower are "copied" to the sub when the LFE+Main setting is used. However, the crossover setting can be adjusted upwards if desired such that there is control over what frequencies are "copied" to the sub.

@PHUELIPH

Not sure what device you're using to respond, but it's much easier to follow your posts if you use the "Quote" button to quote the person you're responding to .... for some reason your posts are stripping the "Quote" code.

Your post as is ...

If you use the QUOTE button ..... we see who you're responding to and what they said

 

 

Thanks JD. These differences between Denon, with which I am not at all familiar, and Onkyo, with which I am (supposed to be) familiar, are one of the reasons I have not yet amended the FAQ to incorporate a solution to this LFE + Main thing.  Onkyo does have some sort of 'double bass' thing but as I have never, even for a moment, thought of using it, I will need to RTFM to discover if it works in a similar or dissimilar way to Denon's implementation.

 

 

 

Ah - thanks. Now I don't have to RTFM :)

 

 

Thanks again. I think I may now have pretty much all I need to write a FAQ question and answer along the lines of "What is LFE + Main or 'double bass' and shoukd I use it?".

And at what level of distortion. We tolerate more distortion at low frequencies than high, and speakers do generate more distortion at low frequencies. But which will do the best job at 60-70-80? A speaker designed to reproduce 40 to 20k, or a speaker designed to reproduce 20 to 200(-ish)?

FAQ UPDATED

 

FAQ updated to include new question and answer:

 

f)7. What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?

 

Link is here:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/795421/official-audyssey-thread-faq-in-post-1/51780#user_f7

 

Quite so.

one thing i will never understand... many insist on crossing over too low, because they don't want to "waste" their main speakers...

of course, by doing so, they are "wasting" their sub, which is almost certainly more competent at producing those frequencies...

 

:)  It's a weird 'perception' thing I guess which ignores the actual science and reasoning behind our recommendations. And of course, by forcing the main speakers to try to reproduce frequencies they can’t handle, at levels they can't reach, they really are 'wasting' their main speakers, in the sense that they are causing them to work less well than they actually could.

It really is a psychological issue, but we are all subject to those from time to time. And knowing it is all in my head only helps a little in overcoming them. With main speakers, I think it is a form of willy-waving ... hey, look at my large speakers.

Jeff

Updated Linky Doc.

FAQ Links.doc 40k .doc file

Please excuse my ignorance or dumbness but as far as waste main speakers goes how are they wasted? Are they wasted if example they are crossed at a lower point like 60hz vs 120hz?

at least one of the reasons people do and say this, is the fact that they paid so much money for speakers that should go down to 20 Hz at -9 dB (or whatever), and then Audyssey tells them to send all the bass (from 120 on down) to the sub.

so they will still use  their speakers right down to 20 Hz ( "i paid for it"), distortion assured and maybe life shortened.

 

they want to get what they paid for, whatever the cost; but it does not make good sense, as a good sub would give them the sound quality.

That's it. They believe the manufacturer's specs and they PAID for that performance. And, sure as shootin', they are going to use it. No wimpy crossovers for them!

I agree most speakers should be set small, but depending on their quality the xover could be lower than 80. My Polk LSi setup is all are set at 60 and they sound GREAT, I even toy with setting them to 55.