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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1827

post #54781 of 62264
6/25/12 at 4:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceX View Post

my audessey set my speakers to 40hz, I heard 80hz is best? Is that true and why?

 

 

Answered in the FAQ - see link below.

 

c)2. I often see advice to change the Crossovers from what Audyssey has set to 80Hz. Why is this? Has Audyssey got it wrong? Click here.

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post #54782 of 62264
6/25/12 at 4:21pm
I dont see a crossover setting for the sub, is that the LPF of LFE? or by setting all speakers to 80hz that makes the sub handle everything else?
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post #54783 of 62264
6/25/12 at 4:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceX View Post

I dont see a crossover setting for the sub, is that the LPF of LFE? or by setting all speakers to 80hz that makes the sub handle everything else?

a crossover redirects frequencies from one speaker to the other. that is, the crossovers for the speakers have to have a low pass to the sub, or they wouldn't be crossovers. So there's nothing separate to set. LFE is the .1 channel in multichannel recordings. It doesn't get crossed over. The LPF will reduce sounds above the cutoff you set. For most folks, leaving it 120 Hz works, and makes sense because theoretically that's the max frequency to be put into the LFE channel for movies. Some folks like it lower. The main reason I can think of to lower it would be if, with your overall system balanced properly, bass heavy sound effects sound like they are coming from the sub rather than being centered or following the higher frequency components of the sound into the left, right, surrounds or whatever.
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post #54784 of 62264
6/26/12 at 12:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceX View Post

I dont see a crossover setting for the sub, is that the LPF of LFE? or by setting all speakers to 80hz that makes the sub handle everything else?

a crossover redirects frequencies from one speaker to the other. that is, the crossovers for the speakers have to have a low pass to the sub, or they wouldn't be crossovers. So there's nothing separate to set. LFE is the .1 channel in multichannel recordings. It doesn't get crossed over. The LPF will reduce sounds above the cutoff you set. For most folks, leaving it 120 Hz works, and makes sense because theoretically that's the max frequency to be put into the LFE channel for movies. Some folks like it lower. The main reason I can think of to lower it would be if, with your overall system balanced properly, bass heavy sound effects sound like they are coming from the sub rather than being centered or following the higher frequency components of the sound into the left, right, surrounds or whatever.
There's one other reason:
Some multichannel music has garbage recorded/encoded in the .1 channel between 80Hz and 120Hz. IIRC, one of the remastered Steely Dan albums exhibits this problem. The studio had an 80Hz low pass filter in place while mastering, so they weren't aware of the garbage because THEIR playback system filtered it out. Using an 80Hz LPF of LFE would filter it out but a 120Hz setting would allow the garbage to be heard.


Max
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post #54785 of 62264
6/26/12 at 3:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by LanceX View Post

I dont see a crossover setting for the sub, is that the LPF of LFE? or by setting all speakers to 80hz that makes the sub handle everything else?


Yes - if you set an 80Hz crossover, everything below 80Hz goes to your subwoofer.

 

LPF of LFE is something else and is explained here:

 

c)5. What is the LPF of LFE and what should it be set to? Click here.

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post #54786 of 62264
6/26/12 at 6:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by djbluemax1 View Post

There's one other reason:
Some multichannel music has garbage recorded/encoded in the .1 channel between 80Hz and 120Hz. IIRC, one of the remastered Steely Dan albums exhibits this problem. The studio had an 80Hz low pass filter in place while mastering, so they weren't aware of the garbage because THEIR playback system filtered it out. Using an 80Hz LPF of LFE would filter it out but a 120Hz setting would allow the garbage to be heard.
Max

Max,

I recall Roger Dressler discussing this a while back. So we are presented with the option of setting LPF of LFE at 80 Hz to avoid the MC music anomalies, setting it at 120 Hz to ensure all LFE content in movies is reproduced, or switching it back and forth, depending on content. Correct me if I am wrong, but the frequency of poorly-recorded MC music is likely to be low. What I don't understand is, how much LFE content is there in movies in the 80-120 Hz range? If it is a significant amount, then I would think that setting LPF of LFE at 120 Hz would be the safest option. Your thoughts?
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post #54787 of 62264
6/26/12 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Max,
I recall Roger Dressler discussing this a while back. So we are presented with the option of setting LPF of LFE at 80 Hz to avoid the MC music anomalies, setting it at 120 Hz to ensure all LFE content in movies is reproduced, or switching it back and forth, depending on content. Correct me if I am wrong, but the frequency of poorly-recorded MC music is likely to be low. What I don't understand is, how much LFE content is there in movies in the 80-120 Hz range? If it is a significant amount, then I would think that setting LPF of LFE at 120 Hz would be the safest option. Your thoughts?
I seem to remember Roger citing only one (or two?) 5.1 music titles that had garbage between 80 and 120 on the LFE. I have never noticed any of this myself and have no intention of swapping LPF settings for music and cinema.

Jeff
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post #54788 of 62264
6/26/12 at 7:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post


Max,
I recall Roger Dressler discussing this a while back. So we are presented with the option of setting LPF of LFE at 80 Hz to avoid the MC music anomalies, setting it at 120 Hz to ensure all LFE content in movies is reproduced, or switching it back and forth, depending on content. Correct me if I am wrong, but the frequency of poorly-recorded MC music is likely to be low. What I don't understand is, how much LFE content is there in movies in the 80-120 Hz range? If it is a significant amount, then I would think that setting LPF of LFE at 120 Hz would be the safest option. Your thoughts?


I recall reading that they don't generally have a lot of content in the LFE that is above 80Hz BICBW. If FilmMixer is about he might chime in and give us a definitive answer. When I have experimented with changing the LPF of LFE to 80Hz I have never noticed any difference. Mine is set at 120Hz and has been there for ages - no intention of changing it. I don't use the HT for (serious) music listening anyway as you know, so that isn't an issue for me.

 

I'll post those Sub 2 Pro settings in the other thread soon.

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post #54789 of 62264
6/26/12 at 7:14am
Whats better Audyssey or Anthem's ARC?
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post #54790 of 62264
6/26/12 at 7:28am
^^^

gee... what answer do you think you are going to get in this thread?
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post #54791 of 62264
6/26/12 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Whats better Audyssey or Anthem's ARC?


It's impossible to say - depends on what you mean by "better". They both purport to do the same thing - to electronically EQ the room and system together. Both have multiple mic positions, both apply correction to peaks and dips (limited for the latter), both are able to run in 'automatic' mode. ARC can only correct for 7 speakers, Audyssey can correct for 11 if that is important to you. ARC (I think) uses an individually calibrated mic (as does Audyssey Pro but not XT32 etc). ARC has the ability to calibrate separately for music and movies, with different crossovers, filters etc. Audyssey only has the music and movie target curves option. Both systems keep their proprietary information secret for obvious commercial reasons, so we will never know precisely how they work. I think if you wanted to try both systems to compare them it would be very difficult because there would be too many variables, so only listening over a long period would perhaps help. I believe Kal Rubinson tested both for Stereophile and came to the conclusion that he preferred Audyssey, if that is any help to you.

 

It may come down to your preferred choice of AVR/AVP. If you really want to go with Anthem then you will have ARC. If you prefer to go with Onkyo or Denon (and a few others) you will have Audyssey. If you are going to go for Audyssey I would strongly suggest that you go for a unit with XT32 as it is significantly better than the lesser Audyssey variants.

 

There are other options of course. Pioneer has its MCACC system but AIUI that doesn't EQ the bass which to me makes it entirely pointless. Yamaha has its YPAO system, about which I know nothing I am afraid.

 

I have tried to be unbiased above - but you are asking in the Official Audyssey Thread, so expect people here to come down on the side of Audyssey!  Similarly, if you ask your question in an Anthem or ARC thread, I'd expect a bias towards ARC.

 

I can tell you that XT32 has the capability to make a tremendous improvement to the performance of your system in your room and it is one feature that I would not be without in any AVR I bought (or Pro capability as well of course - even better, but much more expensive).

 

You might also want to research Trinnov and TACT if you haven’t done so already.

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post #54792 of 62264
6/26/12 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


I recall reading that they don't generally have a lot of content in the LFE that is above 80Hz BICBW. If FilmMixer is about he might chime in and give us a definitive answer. When I have experimented with changing the LPF of LFE to 80Hz I have never noticed any difference. Mine is set at 120Hz and has been there for ages - no intention of changing it. I don't use the HT for (serious) music listening anyway as you know, so that isn't an issue for me...

IIRC FM has stated the following: content from 80-120is variable. He sets his AVR LFE LPF to 120 but rolls off the LFE starting at 80 when mixing films. I did not detect any loss of rumble when I A/B'd from 120-80 listening to familiar LFE laden passages in action films.

As I have an external amp, it is easy for me to listen to the LFE channel on music recordings. I simply reset speakers to Large and turn off the amp. You'd be surprised what's in there. biggrin.gif As I listen to quite a bit of MC music, I simply keep my LFE LPFat 80.
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post #54793 of 62264
6/26/12 at 7:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Whats better Audyssey or Anthem's ARC?

It also depends on a couple of other things:

1) Do you value simplicity in setup? Audyssey (unless you choose to go with a Pro setup) is self contained. ARC requires that you use an external laptop to perform its calibration.

2) Depends on which version of ARC you're talking about. The version of ARC that Anthem includes with their AVR's is not the same as the ARC that is put into Anthem's seperates. IMO, XT32 is superior to the AVR version of ARC, while it would take XT32+Pro to compare with the advanced ARC found in Anthem's hi-end seperates.

Cheers,
SB
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post #54794 of 62264
6/26/12 at 10:09am

Having recently upgraded to a 9.1 AVR and already having hard-wired Rear Surround speakers, I added 2 Wides and 2 Heights in front (all speakers are Def Tech).  Given that Wides/Heights are prioritized over Rear Surrounds, I went with both wide/high and am not using the nice rear surrounds still in place.  Today I had a thought about using the rears also by connecting them with the Front Height outputs along with the actual front heights.  My assumption is that since the height info is mostly ambient sound in Audyssey DSX or Neo-6, it is much less directional than the wides or even the side surrounds.  So, I connected them that way and tried a scene from Thor with rain overhead.  The whole soundstage sounded deeper and the rain truly sounded like it was in the ceiling.  The fronts heights are directional radiators, but the existing rears are bipoles.  At first I was concerned about this, but decided that was probably a good thing since I don't want specific direction from the rears, even on Height settings.  

 

I plan to look through my blu rays and see what good material I have on hand to test further, but would welcome any input on why my idea is either good or bad.  Should I consider connecting the rears to the side surrounds instead?  Or should I abandon this experiment completely?  I have big Def Tech towers w/ subs for L/R/C, midsized BPVX surrounds and a dedicated SVS sub.  I added Pro Monitor 1000's for the wides (best compromise I could find in Def Tech for monopole) and 800's for the front heights.  The room is 20' wide with a 10.6' wide 2.35 screen and the rear surrounds are back at about 27'.  Seating is at 13'.  I am very close to the exact 30°, 45° and 60° across the front and the sides are at about 100-110°.  Appreciate any thoughts on this.

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post #54795 of 62264
6/26/12 at 10:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

Having recently upgraded to a 9.1 AVR and already having hard-wired Rear Surround speakers, I added 2 Wides and 2 Heights in front (all speakers are Def Tech).  Given that Wides/Heights are prioritized over Rear Surrounds, I went with both wide/high and am not using the nice rear surrounds still in place.  Today I had a thought about using the rears also by connecting them with the Front Height outputs along with the actual front heights.  My assumption is that since the height info is mostly ambient sound in Audyssey DSX or Neo-6, it is much less directional than the wides or even the side surrounds.  So, I connected them that way and tried a scene from Thor with rain overhead.  The whole soundstage sounded deeper and the rain truly sounded like it was in the ceiling.  The fronts heights are directional radiators, but the existing rears are bipoles.  At first I was concerned about this, but decided that was probably a good thing since I don't want specific direction from the rears, even on Height settings.  

I plan to look through my blu rays and see what good material I have on hand to test further, but would welcome any input on why my idea is either good or bad.  Should I consider connecting the rears to the side surrounds instead?  Or should I abandon this experiment completely?  I have big Def Tech towers w/ subs for L/R/C, midsized BPVX surrounds and a dedicated SVS sub.  I added Pro Monitor 1000's for the wides (best compromise I could find in Def Tech for monopole) and 800's for the front heights.  The room is 20' wide with a 10.6' wide 2.35 screen and the rear surrounds are back at about 27'.  Seating is at 13'.  I am very close to the exact 30°, 45° and 60° across the front and the sides are at about 100-110°.  Appreciate any thoughts on this.

Just so we have all the information, is there a reason you didn't purchase a reasonably-priced two-channel amp so you can do a proper 11.1 configuration?
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post #54796 of 62264
6/26/12 at 10:39am
^^
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1370048/the-official-onkyo-tx-nr3009-owners-thread/100_100#post_22160273
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post #54797 of 62264
6/26/12 at 11:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Just so we have all the information, is there a reason you didn't purchase a reasonably-priced two-channel amp so you can do a proper 11.1 configuration?

because he didn't get a Denon 4311 smile.gif
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post #54798 of 62264
6/26/12 at 11:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint350 View Post

Today I had a thought about using the rears also by connecting them with the Front Height outputs along with the actual front heights.  My assumption is that since the height info is mostly ambient sound in Audyssey DSX or Neo-6, it is much less directional than the wides or even the side surrounds.  So, I connected them that way and tried a scene from Thor with rain overhead.  The whole soundstage sounded deeper and the rain truly sounded like it was in the ceiling.  The fronts heights are directional radiators, but the existing rears are bipoles.  At first I was concerned about this, but decided that was probably a good thing since I don't want specific direction from the rears, even on Height settings.  

what you are doing is certainly not "correct" but if it sounds good to you, by all means....

just so you know, the height effects with Audyssey DSX are not just "ambient sound". That is the case with Dolby PLIIz but not DSX. Not sure why you mentioned dts Neo:6 but it has nothing to do with height effects.

with DSX, the height/wide speakers are generating synthesized early reflections to make the room seem more "spacious". The content is generated from the front L/R channels, and the reflections generated at the suggested angles are intended to make you feel like you are in a much larger room and increase the "theater effect" like you would get in a huge theater or concert hall.

when you pipe those reflections to the back surrounds, it probably becomes more "ambient" because they are bipoles, so you get this dispersed sound from those same reflections. So, again, it may sound pleasing but isn't techincally "correct" in that those sounds aren't necessarily supposed to be there. Additionally those speakers are not receiving the correct Audyssey filtering given their acoustic positioning within the room like they would if they got discrete info intended for the surr.back channels.

you could try piping all four surrounds through the two Sur. L/R channels (probably helpful if you do this via an external amp using the pre-outs just to relieve the load on the receiver) which would be more "correct" in the sense that the stuff going to the surrounds was always intended for the surround channels. But the bottom line is that you should do what sounds good to you.
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post #54799 of 62264
6/26/12 at 11:49am
Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

because he didn't get a Denon 4311 smile.gif

Sorry, I keep forgetting how lucky we 4311 owners are. wink.gif
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post #54800 of 62264
6/26/12 at 11:52am
I keep forgetting how lucky you 4311 owner are as well, but then someone reminds me. tongue.gif
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post #54801 of 62264
6/26/12 at 11:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

Whats better Audyssey or Anthem's ARC?

For me Audyssey is MultEQ + DEQ. There might be other EQing software on the market that can also do a good job, but I know of no other commercially available AVR/AVP that takes care of loudness issues the way DEQ does when listening below reference level. Anyone?
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post #54802 of 62264
6/26/12 at 12:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

For me Audyssey is MultEQ + DEQ. There might be other EQing software on the market that can also do a good job, but I know of no other commercially available AVR/AVP that takes care of loudness issues the way DEQ does when listening below reference level. Anyone?

I must admitt Audyssey does a nice job when it comes to being able to listen to effects/dialog at low volume however, I see no improvement in controlling the volume levels. The surges are still present especially when commercials come on.
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post #54803 of 62264
6/26/12 at 12:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post

I must admitt Audyssey does a nice job when it comes to being able to listen to effects/dialog at low volume however, I see no improvement in controlling the volume levels. The surges are still present especially when commercials come on.

Then use MultEQ + DEQ + DynVol, and surges during commercials go away. smile.gif
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post #54804 of 62264
6/26/12 at 1:00pm
Quote:
Today I had a thought about using the rears also by connecting them with the Front Height outputs along with the actual front heights.  My assumption is that since the height info is mostly ambient sound in Audyssey DSX or Neo-6, it is much less directional than the wides or even the side surrounds.

 

DSX derives the Height information from the front R & L channels. So by connecting in this unorthodox way you are sending front L&R information to the rear surrounds. I'd expect a dog's dinner to result from that TBH.

 

If you want to hear just what is in those height channels, disconnect the rest of your speakers and have a listen. With DSX you will be surprised - it sounds pretty much like the front L&R have been shunted up to the ceiling most of the time. Dolby PLIIz is, IMO, a better height solution. (It derives the information from the surround channels).

 

Quote:
I plan to look through my blu rays and see what good material I have on hand to test further, but would welcome any input on why my idea is either good or bad.  Should I consider connecting the rears to the side surrounds instead?  Or should I abandon this experiment completely?

 

Well FWIW, my take on it is that it makes no more sense than connecting your surrounds to the front channels and your wides to your rear surrounds. IOW, it just completely ruins the careful mix that some dedicated mixer spent weeks agonising over. If you like the way it sounds, that's fine of course - it's your system - but if you value even an attempt at hearing what the Director and mixer intended, then forget it.

 

I don't know what AVR you have but if you had a Denon 4311 you would be able to add a two channel amp and send rear surround information to the rear surrounds!  How's that for an idea?!

 

Sorry if I sound a bit abrasive - but you did ask for opinions, and this one is mine smile.gif

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post #54805 of 62264
6/26/12 at 1:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post


For me Audyssey is MultEQ + DEQ. There might be other EQing software on the market that can also do a good job, but I know of no other commercially available AVR/AVP that takes care of loudness issues the way DEQ does when listening below reference level. Anyone?


TACT does I think.

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post #54806 of 62264
6/26/12 at 1:06pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by asere View Post


I must admitt Audyssey does a nice job when it comes to being able to listen to effects/dialog at low volume however, I see no improvement in controlling the volume levels. The surges are still present especially when commercials come on.

It's Dynamic Volume you need for that not Dynamic EQ.

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post #54807 of 62264
6/26/12 at 1:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's Dynamic Volume you need for that not Dynamic EQ.

I think DynVol needs DEQ to be turned on and DEQ needs MultEQ to be turned on as well, so the formula shall be MultEQ + DEQ + DynVol. This is all supposed to be based on Reference Level calibration for proper operation in such a daisy chain configuration. In other words DynVol can not be turned on while MultEQ and DEQ are turned off. Right? smile.gif
Edited by mogorf - 6/26/12 at 1:19pm
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post #54808 of 62264
6/26/12 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

I'd expect a dog's dinner to result from that TBH.

LOL. Never heard that before!
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post #54809 of 62264
6/26/12 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


TACT does I think.

Thanks for the info Keith. Just looked into TACT loudness compensation implementation briefly. Although it does take care of adjusting loudness curves but it does it only in correspondence with Master Volume settings, while as we know Audyssey's DEQ also looks into loud and soft parts of the audio material at a given MV setting and makes an instant adjustment of the curves in real time, hence the name dynamic. I vote for DEQ, but you already knew that, eh? wink.gif
Edited by mogorf - 6/26/12 at 1:46pm
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post #54810 of 62264
6/26/12 at 1:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It's Dynamic Volume you need for that not Dynamic EQ.

Yes even with Dynamic volume ON there is spikes.
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