"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1840

Hi whogg,

Sorry to be pedantric, but the bolded parts give me a bit of controversy. You say "F/L speakers". F/L should mean "Front Left". But then you say "from center to "left or right". Can you make it clear whether it's only your Front Left speaker that is "muffled" or both "Front Left" and "Front Right"?
Edited by mogorf - 7/17/12 at 1:16pm

I have a SVS PC12-Plus sub (Bash) and i would like to listen to differences in tuning between 12 Hz and 16 Hz, by changing the filter setting and number of ports blocked.

 

Do i have to recalibrate with Audyssey when i change the sub's tuning?

^^^

yes....

I assume you still have the Marantz AVR? Does Maranz offer a network save/load capability like Denon? Or do up you by chance have Audyssey Pro?

The reason I ask is that I agree with Chris--once you have decided on a final setting for the sub, you should re-run the Audyssey calibration. Having a capability to save and re-load calibrations makes comparing various settings slightly easier. IMO, you should be able to experiment with different settings without re-running a new calibration, and only re-calibrate when you have finalized the changes.

No worries mogorf. Yes I meanto to say Front Left and Right and both are muffled.

Good. In that case IMHO both of your front speakers seem to have blown tweeters. To crosscheck this you may try to swap (for testing purposes only) your Front L + R speakers with your Surround L + R speakers and see if the "muffle" goes away or not. You could also swap one front speaker with the Center speaker for this test.

On another note, in "normal" cases the Audyssey chirps are supposed to sound identical from every speaker in the setup. Did you experience some different sound of the chirps when auto setup was running though your Front L+Rs compared to the rest of your speakers?
Edited by mogorf - 7/17/12 at 3:20pm

Since they replicate highs well on some content, I don't believe they are blown. Yes, during the set up the chirps sounded exactly the same.

Have done Audyssey Full Calibration. Speaker set-up is 9.2 with SB + FH.

Audyssey Full Calibration had calculated the speaker distances correctly & the indiv speaker vol levels sounded correctly. However, when I played any blu ray movie in Audyssey DSX or Pro Logic IIx+Audyssey, the Surround LR & Surround Back LR sounded more prominent but the Front LR sounded less impactful. Is this normal?

Centre & 2 Subs sounded correct.

The calibrated distances & indiv speaker vol levels are as follows:

Speaker Distance (metres) Level (dB)
Front Height Left 3.3 0
Front Left 3.15 -1
Centre 2.7 -3.5
Front Right 3.15 -1
Front Height Right 3.3 0
Surround Left 1.5 0
Surround Back Left 1.35 -1
Surround Back Right 1.35 -1
Surround Right 1.5 0
Subwoofer 2.1 -10.5

Thanks

If you also used DynEQ in your tests, you could see if a RLO of 5 restores the expected spatial balance ...

Chirps sounding the same are a good sign of no speaker problem. Now, can you expand on what you mean by "some content"? And especially what source are you using when "some content" are muffled?
Edited by mogorf - 7/18/12 at 12:11am

Yes, i still have the Marantz and use the internal MultEq, and it does not save/load as the Denon. It puts the calibration in memory and that's it.

 

As is recommended, i will recalibrate after i've settled on a particular sub setting.   Thanks.  :-)

 

The reason i want to check the sub's calibration is that i recently bought a SACD organ recording (Cameron Carpenter's Revolutionary) which seems to stretch the sub a bit in the infra sound portion of the spectrum, but i'm not sure if it's the sub that's at its limit or the room that resonates at a particular frequency. trying the sub at a 16 Hz cutoff instead of 11-12 Hz should clear up which is responsible for the noise. It's also the first time i hear port chuffing, something that did not happen before, even when playing WOTW at reference level.

The idea of a "House curve" is to have a target response that is not perfectly flat, but rather reflects other priorities.

A "LFE house curve" might for example crank the lower bass a tad...

To all the Audyssey Pro's out there...I just purchased an Onkyo 818 and love it. As everyone knows the 818 cannot do separate sub EQ's. So here is my situation: I have two subs, both Velo DEQ 10's each with their own internal EQ's, Presently each sub sits diagonal from each other. I have a VERY small HT...a whooping 11 x 12 and therefore sub placement is limited to say the least. I do have the the opportunity to place both subs equal distant to the primary listening area (one on either side of the TV). After running Audyssey a few times I have come up with the sound which I really like. So here is the question: Would it be ok to enter the speaker distance to 8.5 feet and forget it. Or would it be better to ''start from scratch'' and keep my fingers crossed that I come up with same sound that I am presently hearing? On an unrelated question I read somewhere that it is good to set the surround speakers crossover to 120. Any merit to this?

"On an unrelated question I read somewhere that it is good to set the surround speakers crossover to 120. Any merit to this?"

 

Abba, that's lots of unknowns; which make/model surround speakers and WHY 120 Hz.?

it all depends on the audio system/room combination.

Oops...forgot the model. They are Polk OWM3's. Like I said...I read about the 120 hz in one of the forums. Don't know if there is any rhyme, reason or truth to it.

Thanks for that info. I had completely forgotten that it was addressed in a FW update. Good catch. I will amend the FAQ accordingly.

I doubt that is correct, Feri. If the front R&L have a FR of 40Hz - 20kHz and the surrounds have a FR of 100Hz - 20kHz, then there is no way the chirps will sound identical across all speakers is there?

Store the settings and then you can go back to the known good calibration if you dislike the new one.

 

Store and Recall settings - Onkyo/Integra

To STORE:
1. Push and hold Setup on the AVR (not the remote)
2. While still holding Setup, push Enter
3. Unit displays 'Setup store?"
4. Still holding Setup, push Enter again
5. Unit displays "Setup storing'
6. Unit then displays 'Complete'
All your settings are now stored.

To RECALL:
1. Push and hold Setup on the AVR
2. While still holding Setup, push Return
3. Unit displays 'Setup recall?'
4. Still holding Setup, push Return again
5. Unit displays 'Setup recalling'
6. Unit then displays 'Complete'
Unit then powers off into standby mode. Switch unit back on, your settings have been restored.

 

For more information, see the FAQ, here:

 

a)6. Is it possible to save and recall an Audyssey MultEQ calibration?

See the FAQ for a detailed response, here:

 

a)7. What are the Audyssey 'Movie' and 'Music' curves?

My experience is that the dispersion pattern within any given family of speakers is a significant cause of them sounding "different." I am speaking of monopole vs. dipole and all of the other variations. Now this is for my ears which are (usually) in only one place at a time, as opposed to what MultEQ "hears" from the multiple measuring positions. During the chirps, I tend to be more in the dipioles' nulls whereas the mic could be there or more enveloped in a lobe. Still, a speaker "beaming" sound directly at me sounds very different than one aiming it at the walls.

One small possible quibble with your post is that the chirps so quickly transit their range, I question whether anyone would hear a difference between speakers with LF extension to 100Hz and extension to 40Hz.

Jeff

While what you say is true, Jeff, it must clearly be the case that a speaker that goes to 40Hz will sound different to a speaker which goes only to 100Hz, when swept with a full-range signal, would you not agree?  WRT to the last para of your post, why? Surely people will hear what the speaker produces, regardless of the speed at which it produces it?

 

What I was really taking issue with in Feri's post was his unequivocal assertion that the "Audyssey chirps are supposed to sound identical from every speaker" leading therefore to the conclusion that something must be wrong if the sweeps do not sound identical. I believe this is not correct and could mislead people into thinking there was a problem with their system or their setup where that is not the case. Regardless of who is right between you and me, both of us agree that there are occasions when the chirps will not sound identical across all the speakers, and that this does not automatically mean there is a fault or a problem.

+1.

On another note, in case there is a speaker in a system that has a bad woofer or a bad tweeter I'm sure the chirps from that speaker will sound noticably different. So, the chirps could be used as a rough troubleshooter "device" to detect blown drivers on the spot. In case of a bad woofer its not just the low end that will be missing but the whole range upto the internal c/o frequency of the speaker box. Same logic shall apply for a bad tweeter.

Keith?
Edited by mogorf - 7/18/12 at 9:22am

Evidently not as we quite often get posts questioning if the chirps are sweeping the entire range ... they completely miss the LF part of the sweep. On music, certainly, or even a slow sweep.
Feri's got that "unequivocal" part wrong. Maybe the chirps played through a corrected system would sound the "same" but certainly not the test signals themselves. But personally at least, if I had blown drivers, I think I'd detect it with the chirps, at least for a "per pair" basis..

Jeff

Let's regard that "unequivocal" part as perception wise. Of course a surgically precice lab test with sophisticated acoustical measuring gear would easily prove else, but Guys, we are trying to rely on our own ears during auto setup to detect speaker mishapps, aren't we?

Jeff, who listens to the chirps AFTER auto setup again?

when i do a calibration, my front and side speakers (same make) sound different, but not much;

when comes the time for the back surround speakers, then the sound is very different:

Axiom M80's and QS8's  VS  R.S. Minimus 7

Hi Gelliduis, please try not to be so vague on this issue by saying "speakers sound different, but not much". This is not the issue here. The issue is the possibility to use the chirps to immediately detect a broken driver in our systems. If a woofer in a 2-way speaker box is damaged it's not just the low end that will be missing, but the whole range below the speaker box's internal crossover point. Say a factory c/o is at 3.5 kHz, then with a broken woofer all frequencies below 3.5 kHz will be missing, thus the differently sounding chirps from that speaker will be easily detectable by ear just by listening to the chirps during auto setup.

More on this subject was described by Tom Holman and Ryan Green in their paper for Audio Engineering Society Convention Paper 8310 - First Results from a Large-Scale Measurement Program for Home Theaters (page 3, 2.1.2. Test signal):

"Test signal

The test signal employed as a stimulus is a log-sine
chirp. Since this is basically a swept sine wave, several
benefits accrue. One salient one is that it is simple to tell
if a frequency range is missing due to a bad loudspeaker
driver for instance, or if the system is clipping, or there
are serious, obvious distortion problems such as voice
coil scrapes or rattles. While not specifically designed
for this purpose, a listener becomes trained as to what
the log sine chirp sounds like when properly executed
by the system and one can almost tell the general shape
of response curves simply by listening."
Edited by mogorf - 7/18/12 at 10:37am

I was responding to the person who said the chirps should sound the same whatever speaker mix is used in a system.

 

Kbarnes said the chirps will sound different between one speaker that has a cutoff fr. of 40 Hz and another one cutting off at 100 Hz.

My post meant to say i agree with Kbarnes.

 

2 identical speakers could also sound different, because of room effect.

Aren't we splitting hairs here?  If a speaker has a blown driver, the Audyssey chirp will be distinctly different, and immediately noticeable.  For a speaker mix of different manufacturers, models, etc. the chirps may sound somewhat different, but the difference will be more subtle, and certainly not as far off as the blown driver case.

+1.

BTW, is there anyone here who is not just hearing the chirps, but seriously listening to them? With the exception of Tom Holman and Gellidius?

It's quite different to say that a) a broken driver will make the chirps sound different and b) the chirps should sound identical or there is a problem. I agree with a) but not with b) for the reasons I gave, and the reasons which Jeff gave.

 

WRT to some sounds being inaudible if they are of short duration, this is a new one to me. I know that sounds will be inaudible if they are outside the frequency range of human hearing, or if they are so quiet that they are below the threshold of human audibility - but I have never read anything that suggests that some sounds will not be audible because they are of a short duration. What is the duration below which sounds become inaudible then?