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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1871

post #56101 of 62279
8/24/12 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jd17 View Post

It's actually 8,66 inches (220mm).
Do you mean that Audyssey MultEQ XT32 can and will do the same thing that the ATM is doing?
I cannot imagine it does. That would basically mean that Audyssey is a danger to all speakers and subs that natively won't go down to 20Hz.
I thought Audyssey "respects" the limitations of your speakers?

Audyssey only "respects" the acoustical response. If it finds output below the tuning frequency of your ported sub then it will apply boost or cut depending on what's required to achieve a smooth in-room response. It does that down to 10Hz.
In your case, where you deliberately boost low frequencies, I'm pretty sure MultEQ equalizes below the tuning of your speaker.
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post #56102 of 62279
8/24/12 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

Gosh, that looks like a smoothed graph. What was the resolution of that measurement? biggrin.gif
Craig

Like always, no smoothing, 1Hz resolution. I'd send my Greek friends to Audyssey headquarters if a single point run wouldn't produce a sufficiently smooth response.
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post #56103 of 62279
8/24/12 at 6:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by craig john View Post

I think your question is: Is the unused processing that would have been used on the LFE channel reassigned to the L/R channels because the LFE is being sent there? Is that a correct interpretation of your question?? If so, the answer is "No." The downmixing of 5.1 to 5.0 happens *before* Audyssey EQ. Therefore Audyssey only "sees" the downmixed, L/R + LFE signal and only applies the single filter tap set of the L/R channels to those signals. The L/R channels don't get the "512x" processing of the LFE channel PLUS the "512x" processing of the L/R channels. The filters for the LFE channel remain unused. In addition, the filtering for the rear surround channels and any DSX channels, (Wides or Heights), remains unused. They don't get reassigned to the other channels either. You only get the one filter set that is available for the channels in use.
I did understand it this way, but thanks again for the clarification. smile.gif
Quote:
PS. I also agree with Markus that adding subs would be beneficial, and not just because you would get to use the Audyssey 512x processing on the subwoofer channel.
Again, I also do not disagree but as I said - maybe in the future in a separate room.
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post #56104 of 62279
8/24/12 at 6:45am
I can at least confirm multEQ does crazy things to my little 8 inch energy sub. Without multEQ it basically drops off a cliff at 35hz. A 30hz tone is practically inaudible. After multEQ, a 30hz tone is a clearly audible mess of distortion, probably from the sub bottoming out trying to keep up.

I hope future versions try to correct this by multEQ actually verifying it's results at very low freq - if the mic picks up too much distortion, it should back off.
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post #56105 of 62279
8/24/12 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Audyssey only "respects" the acoustical response. If it finds output below the tuning frequency of your ported sub then it will apply boost or cut depending on what's required to achieve a smooth in-room response. It does that down to 10Hz.
In your case, where you deliberately boost low frequencies, I'm pretty sure MultEQ equalizes below the tuning of your speaker.
Just to make sure that I fully understood what you mean:

Example:
The speakers go down to 40Hz/-3dB in an anechoic chamber.
Due to my room acoustics there is response to - let's say - 35Hz/-3dB.
In this case Audyssey would equalize to just 35Hz - right?

In my case that would mean: ~30Hz/-3dB with the help of the ATM in anechoic chamber.
Audyssey "recognizes" the 30Hz and equalizes everything to 30Hz...

Correct?
Edited by jd17 - 8/24/12 at 6:55am
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post #56106 of 62279
8/24/12 at 6:54am
Correct.
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post #56107 of 62279
8/24/12 at 7:00am
OK got it.
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post #56108 of 62279
8/24/12 at 7:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Like always, no smoothing, 1Hz resolution. I'd send my Greek friends to Audyssey headquarters if a single point run wouldn't produce a sufficiently smooth response.
Just don't move that ear!
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post #56109 of 62279
8/24/12 at 7:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary J View Post

Just don't move that ear!

Already plugged one and the vise is also in place:

http://eco.psy.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/ecopsy/team/lewald/AK.jpg
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post #56110 of 62279
8/24/12 at 7:27am
craigs johns in his MLP !! eek.giftongue.gif:)
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post #56111 of 62279
8/24/12 at 7:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by markus767 View Post

Already plugged one and the vise is also in place:
http://eco.psy.ruhr-uni-bochum.de/ecopsy/team/lewald/AK.jpg

LOL! Now THAT'S funny
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post #56112 of 62279
8/24/12 at 8:48am
I've purchased Paradigm Reference Studio 10''s for duties as the Front Height speakers in my system. I know that width is preferable to height, but my room will not accomodate front wide speakers.

I understand that the Front Height speakers should be more outward than the mains, but I really don't have room for that either. Given that, should the height speakers go directly above the mains (orange squares in pics below), or should I place them inward a little to help with separation (red squares in pics below)?

Thanks for your input.

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post #56113 of 62279
8/24/12 at 9:07am
Quote:
While everyone (?) is waiting for Chris' clarification whether MultEQ applies modifications to the filters before they become active in the AVR or not, I did a little test regarding averaging:


I ran MultEQ with 3 measurements, leaving the mic always in the same location. A 10dB boost and then a cut at 59Hz (Q10) was applied in measurement 2 & 3. Then I measured the acoustical result:




Green = no boost or cut

Blue = -10dB cut in measurement 2 & 3

Red = +10dB boost in measurement 2 & 3


Obviously MulltEQ doesn't weight dips and peaks differently (which psychoacoustically would make sense). Under the test conditions the result is a simple average.

Looking at the results it seems I don't fully understand what you did here. Sorry if I'm being dense.

You did three separate three position MultEQ calibrations, correct? One calibration with with no cut/boost, one with the boost in Audyssey calibration measurement 2&3, and one with the cut in Audyssey calibration measurement 2&3? Then, between each separate MultEQ calibration you placed your mic in place of the Audyssey mic and measured results?confused.gif




Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
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post #56114 of 62279
8/24/12 at 9:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCWolfPck View Post

I've purchased Paradigm Reference Studio 10''s for duties as the Front Height speakers in my system. I know that width is preferable to height, but my room will not accomodate front wide speakers.

I understand that the Front Height speakers should be more outward than the mains, but I really don't have room for that either. Given that, should the height speakers go directly above the mains (orange squares in pics below), or should I place them inward a little to help with separation (red squares in pics below)?

Thanks for your input.


If you are planning to use DSX for the Heights, then Audyssey are quite adamant that you must follow their strict placement guidelines, as shown below.

 

But if you intend to use Dolby PLIIz (which I find very preferable to DSX for various reasons, not the least of which is the way they derive their information from the surround channels as opposed to DSX's deriving it from the L&R channels), then the placement is much less strict. Anywhere above the main speakers is OK - the higher the better.

 

I am not sure what DTS recommend for their Height version - Neo:X.

 

Audyssey guidelines:

 

 

 

 

Dolby PLIIz guidelines:

 

 

This graphic from DTS seems to show that their Height speaker placement guidelines are similar to Dolby's:

 

As you can see - Audyssey's are by the most demanding requirements, with the requirement to have the speakers at a 45 degree angle in both the horizontal and vertical planes. I use PLIIz as I say and my Height speakers are as high as I can get them in the room and outside the boundary of the R & L speakers. Result is superb.

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post #56115 of 62279
8/24/12 at 9:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Looking at the results it seems I don't fully understand what you did here. Sorry if I'm being dense.
You did three separate three position MultEQ calibrations, correct? One calibration with with no cut/boost, one with the boost, and one with the cut? Then, between each separate MultEQ calibration you placed your mic in place of the Audyssey mic and measured results?
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
Code:
Calibration 1:   Measurement 1 = 0dB   Measurement 2 = +10dB   Measurement 3 = +10dB
Calibration 2:   Measurement 1 = 0dB   Measurement 2 = -10dB   Measurement 3 = -10dB
Calibration 3:   Measurement 1 = 0dB   Measurement 2 = 0dB     Measurement 3 = 0dB

Does this make it any clearer?

I basically simulated a concordant frequency variation at location 2 & 3.
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post #56116 of 62279
8/24/12 at 9:40am
Yes, I thought they were in room measurements

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
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post #56117 of 62279
8/24/12 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooddoc View Post

Yes, I thought they were in room measurements
Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2

They are.
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post #56118 of 62279
8/24/12 at 9:56am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


If you are planning to use DSX for the Heights, then Audyssey are quite adamant that you must follow their strict placement guidelines, as shown below.

But if you intend to use Dolby PLIIz (which I find very preferable to DSX for various reasons, not the least of which is the way they derive their information from the surround channels as opposed to DSX's deriving it from the L&R channels), then the placement is much less strict. Anywhere above the main speakers is OK - the higher the better.

I am not sure what DTS recommend for their Height version - Neo:X.

Audyssey guidelines:



Dolby PLIIz guidelines:


This graphic from DTS seems to show that their Height speaker placement guidelines are similar to Dolby's:


As you can see - Audyssey's are by the most demanding requirements, with the requirement to have the speakers at a 45 degree angle in both the horizontal and vertical planes. I use PLIIz as I say and my Height speakers are as high as I can get them in the room and outside the boundary of the R & L speakers. Result is superb.

Thanks! I'm so new to the thought of more than 5.1 that I didn't even think to consider the Dolby and DTS processing. It looks like my room configuration fits them best anyway and I should be fine with the speakers above the mains. I'll still give DSX a listen to see what it's like. The charts you posted certainly answered my question. Thanks again!
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post #56119 of 62279
8/24/12 at 9:59am
OK, I got it now, lol. The simulated room mode thing threw me off. Homer Simpson moment...

Sent from my Galaxy Nexus using Tapatalk 2
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post #56120 of 62279
8/25/12 at 11:41pm
5-1.jpg 16k .jpg file
Referring to the attached image, which one sounds better in 5.1 setup (especially the surround effect)?
Can Audyssey make both surrounds sound the same?
For the room on the right, if add on rear surrounds (make it 7.1 setup), should sound better than the left room (5.1 setup)?
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post #56121 of 62279
8/26/12 at 12:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

Referring to the attached image, which one sounds better in 5.1 setup (especially the surround effect)?

Burger King or McDonalds? Who makes the better burger? This is a question of personal taste. As long as there's no predefined set of quality characteristics for "the" burger, my answer to the question is as good (or meaningless) as anybody else's answer. You have to find out for yourself.

That said, the longer room can create delayed late reflections which result in added spaciousness. Depends on the speaker's directivity and room properties.
Edited by markus767 - 8/26/12 at 2:32am
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post #56122 of 62279
8/26/12 at 2:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

For the room on the right, if add on rear surrounds (make it 7.1 setup), should sound better than the left room (5.1 setup)?
With 4 surround speakers you'll get greater wrap-around envelopment and more stable rear-vs-side imaging in the surround field than you would using only 2 surrounds.
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post #56123 of 62279
8/26/12 at 2:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

...Referring to the attached image, which one sounds better in 5.1 setup (especially the surround effect)?
Can Audyssey make both surrounds sound the same?
For the room on the right, if add on rear surrounds (make it 7.1 setup), should sound better than the left room (5.1 setup)?
Yes, the usual recommendation is that if you have little room behind MLP there is little to be gained from rear surr. So the longer room would potentially benefit far more from 7.1 than the shorter one. But in both rooms the Audyssey std recommendation is that the benefit to be gained in the overall surr effect is greatest adding wides, then heights, and least with rear surrs.
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post #56124 of 62279
8/26/12 at 2:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by KCWolfPck View Post


Thanks! I'm so new to the thought of more than 5.1 that I didn't even think to consider the Dolby and DTS processing. It looks like my room configuration fits them best anyway and I should be fine with the speakers above the mains. I'll still give DSX a listen to see what it's like. The charts you posted certainly answered my question. Thanks again!

 

You're welcome. Yes, try all three Height variations and see which you prefer. I find DSX gives an impressive result even though my Height speakers cannot follow Audyssey's placement guidelines here due to room dimensions etc. But I prefer Dolby PLIIz of the three as it seems to give the most 'natural' result to me. DSX derives its Height info from the front R&L channels and it seems to give a too front-centric presentation with the Surround channels becoming far less important to the mix. Neo;X just sounds odd to me - it derives its info from the Right/Right Surround and Left/Left Surround for its Right and Left Height channels respectively. If you play a disc that is encoded with 7.1 and use Neo:X it does really weird things to the Surrounds - Transformers DOTM is a good disc to demo that effect with. (This is in my system which has no Rear Surround speakers). Just try all three and settle on the one that sounds best to you - this is definitely a Preference issue!

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post #56125 of 62279
8/26/12 at 2:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

5-1.jpg 16k .jpg file
Referring to the attached image, which one sounds better in 5.1 setup (especially the surround effect)?
Can Audyssey make both surrounds sound the same?
For the room on the right, if add on rear surrounds (make it 7.1 setup), should sound better than the left room (5.1 setup)?

 

I am assuming you are using Dipole surround speakers. If you are using Monopoles, I don't have enough experience with them as surround speakers to comment I am afraid.


With that proviso, for the room on the left you could also try moving the surrounds so they are at right angles to the MLP. 

 

For the room on the right I would leave the surrounds where you have indicated.

 

The room on the right lends itself to 7.1 setup and in that case I would bring the surrounds to 90 degrees with the MLP and maybe even slightly forward of it.

 

I would suggest temporarily mounting the surrounds if possible so that you can experiment by listening to the results for various positions.

 

I would also try to ensure that the right, left an centre speakers are equidistant from the MLP.


Edited by kbarnes701 - 8/26/12 at 2:47am
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post #56126 of 62279
8/26/12 at 2:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

...Referring to the attached image, which one sounds better in 5.1 setup (especially the surround effect)?
Can Audyssey make both surrounds sound the same?
For the room on the right, if add on rear surrounds (make it 7.1 setup), should sound better than the left room (5.1 setup)?
Yes, the usual recommendation is that if you have little room behind MLP there is little to be gained from rear surr. So the longer room would potentially benefit far more from 7.1 than the shorter one. But in both rooms the Audyssey std recommendation is that the benefit to be gained in the overall surr effect is greatest adding wides, then heights, and least with rear surrs.

 

He doesn't seem to have room for Wides though as his R&L are already close to the wall boundaries in both of his scenarios.

 

When Audyssey make that recommendation, are they primarily thinking of music content? I only have Height speakers but I find that DSX gives the presentation a very front-centric bias - the Surrounds play at lower SPLs when you engage DSX and it does something to the way the surrounds work that makes them a lot less 'noticeable' in the mix. It has always seemed odd to me that Audyssey says that sounds from the front are far more easily perceived by human ears and then they make the whole soundstage biased towards the front with DSX. It would seem to make more sense, given that it is true that we find it harder to locate sounds from behind us, to concentrate on improving what is behind us, not making an already forward-biased situation even more so.

 

I ask if they are thinking of music rather than movies, because whenever I read about DSX on an Audyssey site they always stress that DSX gives added 'reflections' which seems to be with the intent of re-creating a concert hall rather than a film mixer's studio. In that sense I can see why they go for the frontcentricity (I made that word up :)) - but their "wides before heights and heights before rear surrounds" schtick doesn’t seem to hold good for movies IMO.

 

I find PLIIz gives a truly excellent result with a Heights-only setup like mine.

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post #56127 of 62279
8/26/12 at 2:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundofMind View Post

Yes, the usual recommendation is that if you have little room behind MLP there is little to be gained from rear surr. So the longer room would potentially benefit far more from 7.1 than the shorter one. But in both rooms the Audyssey std recommendation is that the benefit to be gained in the overall surr effect is greatest adding wides, then heights, and least with rear surrs.

Surround effects and spaciousness are two different things.
Psychoacoustic studies have shown that the spaciousness of frontal sounds can be increased by reflections coming from around ±60°. There is currently no consumer format that provides discrete channels for such wide information but there are sound formats that provide discrete back surround channels. So it's probably more reasonable to optimize for existing sound formats than for upmixing algorithms that extract their information from a subset of channels.
DSX will always add spaciousness to each and every scene of a movie. The algorithm doesn't care if it's appropriate for a scene or not.
Edited by markus767 - 8/26/12 at 3:05am
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post #56128 of 62279
8/26/12 at 3:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

5-1.jpg 16k .jpg file
Referring to the attached image, which one sounds better in 5.1 setup (especially the surround effect)?
Can Audyssey make both surrounds sound the same?
For the room on the right, if add on rear surrounds (make it 7.1 setup), should sound better than the left room (5.1 setup)?

Potentially, the room on the right would sound better since MLP in the left is close to the back wall. But MLP should never be in the center of the room like this since that's where the standing waves will be cancelling each other out. Best position is 38% of room length from front, so move forward a bit. Second best is 38% of room length from back. Note: when using only one subwoofer, put it on the front wall but slightly off center to counter canceling standing waves at MLP.

With the left room, try to move MLP forward to 38% room length from back and put broadband sound absorption on the back.
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post #56129 of 62279
8/26/12 at 3:30am
Thanks for all the feedback. I guess the first question is still not answered yet. (everyone seems to be answering the 3rd question and DSX except erwinfrombelgium)
Quote:
Referring to the attached image, which one sounds better in 5.1 setup (especially the surround effect)?
In your opinion, left room or right room?

In my opinion, the left room will sound better as the rear wall helps with surround sound reflection. I'm more concern with the effect of the rear wall with surround sound.
Edited by Skylinestar - 8/26/12 at 3:39am
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post #56130 of 62279
8/26/12 at 3:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post

In your opinion, left room or right room?
In my opinion, the left room will sound better as the rear wall helps with surround sound reflection. I'm more concern with the effect of the rear wall with surround sound.

The rear wall being so close in the left room may help with surround reflections. But it will cause muddy reception from the front speakers due to first reflections (there are 6 early reflection points* from each speaker, the rear is often forgotten). Plus point sounds from the surround channels will also suffer from these early reflections. If the rear wall is so close to the MLP, absorption and/or diffusion is more than recommended!

*In a box shaped room
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