"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1906

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brady84 

I need some help.
I do not think Audyssey is properly redirecting the right amount of bass in my system. I am using omnimic for spl measurements and frequency sweeps and the receiver is a Onkyo 805. After Audyssey is completed I switched my speakers to small and set the cross overs to 80hz, I also re level match each speaker as Audyssey seems to calibrate them to about 72db on the test tons. When taking frequency response measurements with omnimic the bass below 80hz is pretty flat so I know AUD did some work down there but the level is way too low, about 10db's. This happens in stereo mode as well as surround mode on the receiver. When I go to the level calibration the sub channel is the correct volume, by the time I can get the redirected bass to the proper level the sub channel is measuring over 85db's and is obviously super hot compared to the rest of the speakers.
Does anyone have any experience as to why Audyssey would set the redirected bass so much lower than the LFE channel?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brady84 

Thanks for the quick reply. I figured some visuals would help, or at least not hurt. These response plots were taken from the same position, microphone not touched between EQ settings. The level trims are also not modified. The subs are level trimmed hot by about 3db's in my effort to get the Audyssey plot a bit flatter. I apologize for the inconsistent y axis values on the two plots, took them in a hurry.
This is my raw response from the primary listening position with 1/6th octave smoothing, left channel only for both plots, no EQ engaged, just stereo mode with 80hz crossovers. My Triple 12's pick up quite a bit of mid bass around 120hz and running the subs hot for Audyssey makes them about the same level as the bloated mid bass when no eq is engaged.

Here is the plot with Audyssey engaged. EQ turned on is only difference from first plot. If I level match the subwoofer channel with the speakers in the receiver the bass is another 3-5db's lower than this plot. I'm assuming what all this means is that if I watch a 5.1/7.1 movie with Audyssey engaged the LFE track will be 3-5db's hot (due to my level settings) and the redirected bass from the mains will be 3-5dbs lower than it should be, due to lowered levels of redirected bass from Audyssey.

Edit: Looking at these plots there is almost a 15db difference (not 10 as originally stated) between Audyssey engaged and the raw response.

I re-read your two postings several times and I am still not sure I understand what is going on here.  You use the words "I do not think Audyssey is properly redirecting the right amount of bass in my system".  Audyssey does not "redirect bass", bass is re-directed from all speakers set to "small" by the AVR's crossover settings.  Then you say, "...by the time I can get the redirected bass to the proper level the sub channel is measuring over 85db's and is obviously super hot compared to the rest of the speakers".  What are you adjusting to get the redirected bass to the proper level, since you say that the "sub channel is the correct volume"?

Next thing I don't understand is why are you measuring left channel only?  if you are interested in bass response, you should be driving both left and right channels with a mono test signal, in stereo mode, with all subs set to their originally-calculated Audyssey trim levels.  While I am unfamiliar with your set-up, it is possible that one of your speakers is in a null. 

You say "... the bass below 80hz is pretty flat so I know AUD did some work down there".  Looking at the graph with EQ, there is a small flat section from about 40Hz to 55Hz, but on either side of that, the response is anything but flat.  The dip in the 40-55Hz range is peculiar, and indicative to me that something is seriously wrong that we don't understand yet.  I have never seen an Audysssey calibration alter a specific range by -15 dB (since Audyssey can only apply up to a 9dB correction). 

My recommendations:

- Tell us a bit about your room setup, e.g. what are your left and right speakers, what type subs do you have, how many, and where are they placed?  Pictures would be helpful.

- Using the current calibration, provide two new Omnimic measurements as follows:  place the mic at the MLP at ear-height.  Run the first measurement 10-300Hz, Audyssey off, both left and right speakers driven.  Run the second measurement without moving the mic, but with Audyssey on.  Post the graphs either with no smoothing, or no more than 1/24 smoothing.

- Tell us a bit about how you are taking the Audyssey measurements.  Where do you place the mic, and are you using a tripod or boom mic?

This is an interesting case, and I'm sure that you can get some better results by working with us here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by primetimeguy 

Very odd indeed, looks like you are getting some sort of cancellation going on only when eq is engaged. Can you plot just the sub and then just the main speaker response?
Also, if you are setting levels based on receiver test tones those do not run through audyssey. I'd recommend leaving them as they are at least for now, and if you change them used a calibration disc for the tones.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

You say "... if you are setting levels based on receiver test tones those do not run through audyssey".  The Audyssey calibration actually sets the speaker trims, and the level of the test tones is indeed affected by these trim settings.  So, what exactly do you mean?

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHAz 

Sicnt EQ changes by the Audyssey setup could affect the readings when playing test noise. The receiver's test tones don't "pass through" Audyssey, AFAIK. So there's a potential for discrepancy.

I agree, the test tones aren't subject to the filters, but they are affected by the trim settings.  IMO, when using the test tones following an Audyssey calibration, the important thing to look for is the relative levels, not the absolute levels.  And unless the test tone measurements reveal something significantly wrong, I would always recommend to trust the levels set by Audyssey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinJerry 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHAz 

Sicnt EQ changes by the Audyssey setup could affect the readings when playing test noise. The receiver's test tones don't "pass through" Audyssey, AFAIK. So there's a potential for discrepancy.

 

I agree, the test tones aren't subject to the filters, but they are affected by the trim settings.  IMO, when using the test tones following an Audyssey calibration, the important thing to look for is the relative levels, not the absolute levels.  And unless the test tone measurements reveal something significantly wrong, I would always recommend to trust the levels set by Audyssey.

Yes the receiver tones are affected by the trim levels,  But I disagree they can be used for relative levels.  One speaker may have a huge peak at 1khz that Audyssey is correcting.  So using raw receiver test tones you will set that speaker level too low.  If you are going to adjust trim levels after running Audyssey it needs to be done with a source other than the receiver tones.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinJerry 

Quote:

Originally Posted by primetimeguy 

Very odd indeed, looks like you are getting some sort of cancellation going on only when eq is engaged. Can you plot just the sub and then just the main speaker response?
Also, if you are setting levels based on receiver test tones those do not run through audyssey. I'd recommend leaving them as they are at least for now, and if you change them used a calibration disc for the tones.
Sent from my SPH-D700 using Tapatalk 2

 

You say "... if you are setting levels based on receiver test tones those do not run through audyssey".  The Audyssey calibration actually sets the speaker trims, and the level of the test tones is indeed affected by these trim settings.  So, what exactly do you mean?

He means that when you play the AVR's own test tones, they do not have Audyssey EQ applied to them - they 'bypass' Audyssey. The test tones are not affected by the Audyssey EQ - so playing the test tones generated by the AVR doesn't correlate properly to the post-cal results.

EDIT: Just saw your reply - yes the test tones are of course affected by the trims (otherwise there'd be no point to the trims) but the EQ applied in the Audyssey calibration may boost (or reduce) certain frequencies in the tones and this could affect the overall SPL from the tones. But I concur that this is unlikely to be relevant to the issue at hand.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

He means that when you play the AVR's own test tones, they do not have Audyssey EQ applied to them - they 'bypass' Audyssey. The test tones are not affected by the Audyssey EQ - so playing the test tones generated by the AVR doesn't correlate properly to the post-cal results.

Never mind....

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinJerry 

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHAz 

Sicnt EQ changes by the Audyssey setup could affect the readings when playing test noise. The receiver's test tones don't "pass through" Audyssey, AFAIK. So there's a potential for discrepancy.

 

I agree, the test tones aren't subject to the filters, but they are affected by the trim settings.  IMO, when using the test tones following an Audyssey calibration, the important thing to look for is the relative levels, not the absolute levels.  And unless the test tone measurements reveal something significantly wrong, I would always recommend to trust the levels set by Audyssey.

+1. Especially if using a ratshack SPL meter. Omnimic is much more reliable though thanks to the far superior, calibrated mic. FWIW, my OM and my Audyssey readings are pretty much identical (using the Pro mic for Audyssey).

Quote:

Originally Posted by AustinJerry 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 

He means that when you play the AVR's own test tones, they do not have Audyssey EQ applied to them - they 'bypass' Audyssey. The test tones are not affected by the Audyssey EQ - so playing the test tones generated by the AVR doesn't correlate properly to the post-cal results.

 

Never mind....

I edited...

Quote:

Originally Posted by JHAz 

just for grins I went here http://www.doctorproaudio.com/doctor/calculadores_en.htm and did some cipherin'. Assuming 7 octaves of pink noise (from about 80 hz to about 10K), each octave equal at 60 dB on average, you'd get a total SPL of 68.5 (non-coherent - - 76.9 for coherent wsources but I don't see how they could be considered coherent because they don't overlap in frequency - - I could be wrong). If there were one octave wide peak at 70 dB, the total noncoherent SPL is 72, ond total coherent is 79.2. So an octave's worth of 10 dB peak nets a difference of a bit over 3 dB in a 7 octave limited bandwidth pink noise test, I think. A litttle more than I might've guessed . . .

Now that is cool... 

Quote:

Quote:

Originally Posted by amill94 

Hey guys, hoping I can get some help with my subwoofer issue and my Onkyo 3007. Had the receiver since launch in 2009. I've been running it with Martin Logan Source fronts, Martin Logan Matinee center, ML Abyss sub and some Athena bookshelfs for rears. I finally upgraded my subwoofer to a HSU VTF-15H. I ran through the Audyssey and the receiver set the fronts to full band which enabled double bass. I changed them to 80hz along wtih the rest of the speakers and noticed I was lacking mid bass for music and somewhat during movies. The sub crossover is turned off on the sub and the receiver lpf of lfe was set to 100 or 120hz. I set the fronts to full band and turned on double bass and noticed mid bass had returned. AFter reading through the faq here I noticed you aren't supposed to use double bass. I was under the impression that double bass on the onkyo units acted like lfe+main on denon and yamaha receivers.

I decided to start over and factory reset the receiver. Re ran audyssey and got the following settings which were different than the last time I ran it.
These were the audyssey results and db reading by my radioshack 33-2055

FR: -6.5 = 66db
FL: -6.5 = 66
C: -4.0 = 66
SR: -10.5 = 67db
SL: -7.0 = 67db
SUB: +0.5 = 67-68db

I adjusted them all to read 75db so they ended up like this.

FR +2.5
FL +2.5
C +5
SR/SL = -3.0

Sub: +1.5. I needed to get it up around +3.5 or slightly higher to get it to hit 78-80db. instead I settled at bumping the gain on the sub to 9o'clock and the avr gain to +1.5. I'm only hitting about 77db this way though. IS there any negative effects to running the avr gain @ +3 or +4?

Fronts were crossed over @ 40hz
Center @ 60hz and Surrounds @ 90hz.
Double bass was set to off.


Is it normal to have such a large variation between what the receiver sets the speakers to and what 75db actually is? Also, I adjusted the speaker's xo to 120hz and played musical content to make sure the sub would produce midrange, and it did. However, if I drop the xo below 100hz I lose a lot of midbass. Any other thoughts on settings I could try. I posted in the thread for this sub and it seems like the receiver settings are my last hope. In the Audyssey submenu, Audyssey is set to on, dynamic volume is off and soundstage is set to reference. It's grayed out though, so I can't change it to anything but reference.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks.

Hi -  what is important really for the trim levels is that they are consistent rather than they measure at exactly 75dB when using an external SPL meter. Yours show remarkably good consistency, albeit 9dB down. The ratshack meter isn't especially reliable for absolute measurements although it's pretty good for relative measurements, as you have seen. The Audyssey mic has a tolerance of +/- 2dB and the ratshack mic might also have something similar, so if they are both erring in the same direction you could have a 4dB discrepancy very easily, although that is still a long way off the 8 or 9dB you are seeing. There is also the issue of making sure the ratshack meter was in the precise same spot as the Audyssey mic was for position 1 when you took the follow-up measurements.

Personally, I would trust Audyssey more than the ratshack meter and I would have probably left the measurements where they were - as I say, it is the relative readings rather than the absolute that matter. If your levels are set relatively correctly, then all that will happen is an adjustment of the MCV to hit the desired 85dB average for reference, although it will throw off Dynamic EQ to some extent.

Check out this FAQ answer:

e)3.   Why does my My Sound Pressure Level meter give a different result to Audyssey?

There is also the possibility of a defective Audyssey mic. If you have access to a different mic of the same type as the one supplied with your AVR, you may care to calibrate again and see if the results differ.  Check out the FAQ answer below for more info on mic types.

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?

You need to turn Dynamic EQ to ON if you are listening at less than reference level (0dB). The commonest reason for lack of bass is listening below reference level and you cannot evaluate correct bass performance at lower than reference level unless you turn on Dynamic EQ. I suggest you do that and listen again.

You definitely do NOT want to use double bass as this will give you bloated and non-reference bass (you heard the bass 'come back' when you tried this, but I would guess you were listening well below reference and I know you had DEQ off, so this would explain it). But you need to turn double bass off and to set a crossover. 80Hz is a good starting point as your sub will without question be far, far more capable of handling frequencies below 80Hz than your main speakers are. I would raise the front speaker XOs to 80Hz from the 40Hz that the 3007 (not Audyssey) set.

Check out these FAQ answers for detailed reasoning:

f)7.   What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?

f)5.   Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?

There is no negative effect to running the sub trim at +3dB/+4dB. 

I think all the tweaking you have done to Audyssey's settings may well have resulted in a bit of a mess. I would run Audyssey again, following the setup procedures in the Audyssey 101 (linked in my sig) and this time, leave the trims alone (but set the XOs as suggested above and turn off double bass etc and turn ON Dynamic EQ - DEQ is set to ON by default after running Audyssey so you must have turned it off). When you have done this, do a listening test - leave the ratshack meter in the drawer - and see what it sounds like.

EDIT: see Craig John's post a few above this one about the value or otherwise of using the test tones in the AVR to check levels. The general point is that the AVR test tones do not go through Audyssey's EQ so measuring them is probably pointless once you have run Audyssey.

If I could add one more comment to what Keith has posted it would be this:  if you are concerned that the overall level of your speakers is too low, then rather than adjust them using the RS SPL, simply raise the trim level of each speaker in the AVR by the same amount.  This preserves the relative level between the speakers, which is likely more accurate than your SPL readings. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by amill94 

Quote:

Originally Posted by kbarnes701 


Hi -  what is important really for the trim levels is that they are consistent rather than they measure at exactly 75dB when using an external SPL meter. Yours show remarkably good consistency, albeit 9dB down. The ratshack meter isn't especially reliable for absolute measurements although it's pretty good for relative measurements, as you have seen. The Audyssey mic has a tolerance of +/- 2dB and the ratshack mic might also have something similar, so if they are both erring in the same direction you could have a 4dB discrepancy very easily, although that is still a long way off the 8 or 9dB you are seeing. There is also the issue of making sure the ratshack meter was in the precise same spot as the Audyssey mic was for position 1 when you took the follow-up measurements.

Personally, I would trust Audyssey more than the ratshack meter and I would have probably left the measurements where they were - as I say, it is the relative readings rather than the absolute that matter. If your levels are set relatively correctly, then all that will happen is an adjustment of the MCV to hit the desired 85dB average for reference, although it will throw off Dynamic EQ to some extent.

Check out this FAQ answer:

e)3.   Why does my My Sound Pressure Level meter give a different result to Audyssey?


There is also the possibility of a defective Audyssey mic. If you have access to a different mic of the same type as the one supplied with your AVR, you may care to calibrate again and see if the results differ.  Check out the FAQ answer below for more info on mic types.

d)4.   Do I have to use the mic that came with my AVR or PrePro?


You need to turn Dynamic EQ to ON if you are listening at less than reference level (0dB). The commonest reason for lack of bass is listening below reference level and you cannot evaluate correct bass performance at lower than reference level unless you turn on Dynamic EQ. I suggest you do that and listen again.

You definitely do NOT want to use double bass as this will give you bloated and non-reference bass (you heard the bass 'come back' when you tried this, but I would guess you were listening well below reference and I know you had DEQ off, so this would explain it). But you need to turn double bass off and to set a crossover. 80Hz is a good starting point as your sub will without question be far, far more capable of handling frequencies below 80Hz than your main speakers are. I would raise the front speaker XOs to 80Hz from the 40Hz that the 3007 (not Audyssey) set.

Check out these FAQ answers for detailed reasoning:

f)7.   What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?


f)5.   Since I ran Audyssey everything sounds great - but where has my bass gone?



There is no negative effect to running the sub trim at +3dB/+4dB. 

I think all the tweaking you have done to Audyssey's settings may well have resulted in a bit of a mess. I would run Audyssey again, following the setup procedures in the Audyssey 101 (linked in my sig) and this time, leave the trims alone (but set the XOs as suggested above and turn off double bass etc and turn ON Dynamic EQ - DEQ is set to ON by default after running Audyssey so you must have turned it off). When you have done this, do a listening test - leave the ratshack meter in the drawer - and see what it sounds like.

EDIT: see Craig John's post a few above this one about the value or otherwise of using the test tones in the AVR to check levels. The general point is that the AVR test tones do not go through Audyssey's EQ so measuring them is probably pointless once you have run Audyssey.

Thank you for this reply. This single post gave me more information than I have found over the past few days. Regarding Dynnamic EQ, I do have that turned on. I have dynamic volume turned off. I must have confused the two. I'm going to factory reset the receiver today and re-run audyssey. I'll leave the speaker gain settings where audyssey places them. Then adjust xo's to 80hz for the speakers. Should I set the lpf of the lfe to 80hz as well or max it out @ 120hz on the avr?

Since audyssey sets the speaker levels in the receiver lower, is there any issue with keeping the volume on the recevier up near 0? Most tv watching is done between -20 and -30db. BD movies is usually around -12-18. I'm assuming I'll be in the low single digits now keeping the audyssey settings.

Thanks again.

Hi Amill,

Have you tried different sub placements?  You might have a room mode contributing to your lack of midbass punch.  That is the only argument for running mains full range that I have ever really agreed with.  Running mains full range(if they are capable down low) will help cancel room modes, think multiple subwoofers.  I'm not suggesting you do that, but it could explain why your seeing what you are seeing.

Where do you sit in the room?

You have a rat shack meter.  Do some FR plotting and see if you have a midbass cancellation issue.  Plot both ways with mains full range and with set to small.  See what you get.

FWIW, for music I use the Audio- subwoofer bass setting and turn my bass all the way up.  If your looking for that kick in the chest from the kick drum, thats the best way I've found to get it and easily switch back to flat calibrated bass for movies.  I do have quite a bit of headroom and my system can accomodate this bass-boost so start with a couple dbs bass boost on the sub and see how you like it.  That concert sound we're all used to from live shows is not a flat FR, it normally has quite a midbass boost for punch.

As far as the AVR calibrating to 75db.  Mine normally calibrates a few dbs short of 75, but I wouldn't worry too much about the number.  Your speakers will likely be complaining before you hit reference at listening position which would be "0,"  Remember 75 is just a number and each system has its own capabilities/weaknesses.  99.99999% of HT systems can't do Reference without ear piercing distortion, Mine included.