"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1912

 

Denon is a very difficult foreign language to master and I would always be very wary of literally translating their manuals. The recognised Universal Authority on Denon translation is AVS member, batpig, who is the compiler of the Denon-English Dictionary and batpig has reviewed the FAQ answer (see below) and is happy with it, as indeed am I, who wrote it ;)  jdsmoothie is another Denon expert authority and I see that he has also replied to you with the correct information too.

 

If you engage LFE+Main, you duplicate the bass which will be sent as a result to the mains and the subwoofer. This is wrong for all manner of reasons. There is only one way to send the bass to the correct place (the sub) and that is to set speakers to small and use the bass management provided in the AVR. If speakers are set to Large then no bass management will take place and the sub that you paid for will sit there doing nothing (other than handing the actual LFE channel itself (the .1 in 5.1).

 

Is perhaps the definition of 'LFE channel' causing some confusion?

 

The LFE channel is a separate channel that may or may not actually have any content in it - it exists mainly for historical reasons and it has nothing to do with the majority of the bass that you will hear in your system at home. Most of your bass will be mixed into the main channels and this is why you need bass management if you have a subwoofer - to send the bass that would otherwise go to the main channels to your sub instead. The sub is the best place for the bass because the sub has been specially designed to handle the bass and has its own powerful amplifier for that purpose - OTOH the main speakers will not have been designed to handle the lowest frequencies very well (or very loud). This is why AVRs have bass management in the first place so it makes little sense to bypass it altogether or to duplicate where the bass ends up.

 

Have another read of the FAQ answer below and it should all click into place - but the bottom line is this: you definitely do NOT want LFE+Main engaged if you want the best sound your system can produce.

 

f)7.   What is ‘LFE + Main’ or ‘Double Bass’ and should I use it?

+1

And the prize for the most succinct answer of the week goes to........ <drumroll> ...... 

My toast was burning.

Thanks JD....

You mean it was almost, er, toast :)  Great answer though. 0. 0. No. I love it...

^^^^

I agree. Even I can't screw up 0.0. No

Thanks again...!

Patrick

Guys i have a question, what should i set the REFERENCE OFFSET for the XBOX 360? 5 , 10 or 15 ?

This is what the manual says but no mention about Xbox 360 gaming:

0 dB (Film Ref): This is the default setting and should be used when listening to movies.

15 dB: Select this setting for pop/rock music or other program material that is mixed at very high listening levels and has a compressed dynamic range.

10 dB: Select this setting for jazz or other music that has a wider dynamic range. This setting should also be selected for TV content as that is usually mixed at 10 dB below film reference.

5 dB: Select this setting for content that has a very wide dynamic range, such as classical music.

no mention about gaming tho so which would be correct for gaming?

I am not a gamer at all, but I would expect that games are similar to rock music and have a very compressed dynamic range. If that is the case, then use 15dB. Alternatively, try the other settings and just listen - which sounds best to you?  Pay special attention to the bass and surround channels when listening.

 

g)3.   What is Reference Level Offset in Dynamic EQ?

Okay thanks, ill set the xbox to 10db then, that should be good right?

and for cable tv what should i set the refernce to?

LFE versus LFE+Mains (Denon)

Thank you to all who have commented in order to help me with my understanding regarding the correct Denon setting for the proper base management of my system; I truly appreciate the assistance.

I do not want to come across as argumentative and I respect that I have no where near the level of knowledge as the experts in this forum, however I respectfully disagree in part with the explanations provided regarding LFE and LFE+Main relative to Denon.

I understand the difference between LFE (.1) and low range frequency base signals. I also agree and understand that when you select "small" versus "large" in the speaker configuration menu that by doing so I am allowing the receiver to perform the base management thus avoiding sending those low base frequencies to the mains.

Please allow me to clarify. My Denon 4308ci allows within the speaker setup sub menu the ability to select the subwoofer mode as the Denon menu screen states "select low range signal to be reproduced by subwoofer" which there are two options; LFE and LFE+ Main.


a). When LFE is selected it states "play low range and LFE of all channels set to small"

b). When LFE + Main is selected it states "play low range and LFE signal of all channels"

I interpret this selection option to allow the user to determine simply what signal goes to the sub as follows.

a). Select LFE only and if your speakers are set to large only the .1 or LFE signal will go to
the sub.
Select LFE only and if your speakers are set to small both the .1 or LFE and the low
range will go to the sub.
b). Select LFE+Main and low range and LFE signal will go to the sub regardless of setting
the speakers to large or small.

I believe the only way to not have the main speakers play low range is to either;

a). Set the speakers to small and allow the receiver to perform the base management
and/or,
b). Set the cross over for the mains to 80 Hz.

My system (Paradigm Studio 100's and centre CC690 certainly could handle the low range however I agree wholeheartedly with the forum recommendation that this is not desirable as yes this is why you purchased a sub in the first place and secondly you want to avoid double bass.

To summarize my Denon setting I have my speakers set to "small" and by doing so I am letting the receiver perform the base management. I have also set my front right, left, centre and rear crossovers to 80Hz thus limiting low range from additionally going to the mains . Now although I have my subwoofer selected to LFE+Main which according to Denon means that the sub will play "low range and LFE signal of all channels" I select this simply to ensure that my sub is not just receiving the .1 or LFE signal only and I am confident with my other settings (small and crossover) that I am not getting low range to the mains.

I believe with Denon the LFE versus LFE+Mains is not a base management utility and as stated simply determines what signal is sent to the subwoofer. With Denon the way to ensure base management of the mains is to select speakers to small and adjust crossovers for mains to 80Hz or higher.

Respectfully Cobra
Edited by cobravenomous - 11/3/12 at 2:27pm

Yes. 10db as well.

Okay thank u very much, i set both my cable tv and xbox 360 to reference level 10db,

one more quesiton, i have auddysey set to MOVIE for the xbox 360 source ,thats most likely right yea? Music doesn't seem like a correct choice for gaming..

Again, it's your setup, settings should be based on your personal preference. Adjust them and use the one that you prefer, after all they're your ears.

I honestly don't know what point you are trying to make. Bottom line is: if you set your speakers to small, then whether you select LFE or LFE+Main makes absolutely no difference.

That was exactly the point that I was trying to make. I was advised earlier never to select LFE+Main, and to only select the LFE sub setting. However as you have confirmed by selecting the speakers to "small", which then allows the Denon receiver to control base management, it is irrelevant then whether you select LFE or LFE+Main for the sub setting as both selections will send low range and LFE only to the subwoofer.

Thanks Cobra

 

Does the Denon allow LFE+Main to be set even if the speakers are set to small?  That is strange because LFE+Main requires the main speakers to be set to Large for obvious reasons. Have you actually tried to set LFE+Main without setting the speakers to Large?  Does it allow it? Does it automatically change the speakers to Large when you set LFE+Main?  It sounds like an odd thing to let you do - to set LFE+Main with speakers set to Small because LFE+Main can't work if the speakers are set to Small.  Bottom line is still this: you do NOT want to use LFE+Main if you value your sound quality.

Yes, Keith, the Denon allows for LFE+Main to be selected if the speakers are set to small. That may not make any sense, but it also does no harm.

Had this discussion in the Denon 4308CI thread related to Denon LFE +Main Dec-2011, http://www.avsforum.com/t/881446/the-official-denon-4308ci-owners-thread/4830#post_21367728:

Edited by mtbdudex - 11/4/12 at 5:22am

Hey tricky question maybe!

I redid my scan and setup for 4311

Have 2nd set of speakers connected to height and have the appropriate setting in amp setup as "B".

Now main reason to do audyssey again was to see what it did with the better B set of speakers just out of curiosity ( I really only listen to these speakers for pure stereo/direct or dedicated enjoyable music listening until I get a 2ch amp etc and or experiment with front audyssey bypass and the sub implementation levels etc.

Once it was all done I checked the the eq audyssey and there was no front b eq!?

Is this correct? Why hasn't audyssey done them? To be honest I don't remember it doing them either..
Should I have "told" amp and set it to normal before swapping over to "b" ??

One other thing is with audyssey on I presume it's using speaker A's curve which would be all wrong for these very different b speakers...
Confused and interested!

Prior to running Audyssey, you must set the Front speaker selection (p. 64 step #11) to either A, B, or A+B and the EQ will be done based on your selection. There is no dedicated Front B EQ when your primary speakers are your Front A speakers.

Ahhhh
ok I just figured that because a set of speakers were/are connected it would do a test/sweep and check whats connected...

Just gotta now do it all again!

Sweet ta mate.

Thank you to all who have assisted in my understanding of LFE and LFE+Main as it pertains to Denon.

I believe it is safe to say now that with Denon; if the speakers are set to small then there is no difference between the Subwoofer Mode setting of LFE and LFE+Main.

Using the previous posters images in the quote above which describe what information is sent to the sub when selecting LFE or LFE+Main, if the speakers are set to large is it correct then to understand;

"Speakers set to Large"

1). If subwoofer selection is LFE only then the subwoofer would only receive the LFE signal
information and no low range signal information.

2). If subwoofer selection is LFR+Main then the subwoofer would receive both the LFE and
low range signal of all channels. I would also believe that this setting would provide the
double base which has been referred to as unwanted.

I am leaving my speaker setting to small to allow base management, but asked the question only to see if I am comprehending the fundamentals.

Again thanks Cobra
Edited by cobravenomous - 11/4/12 at 6:49am

It definitely makes no sense :)

WOOT!!  My pair of Submersive F2s will be here a week tomorrow, 12 November!

 

I wonder if my room treatments will arrive before then so I can get the room ready before the F2s arrive... hope so.

 

It will be interesting to see how Audyssey Pro result is affected (for the better) by the addition of some GIK tri-corner bass traps and some wall treatments (and possibly a ceiling treatment too).

 

I will keep the thread informed of course....

 

In my most recent round of adding room treatments, bass traps improved the impulse response and the waterfall graph.  Based on this, I suspect the Pro calibration results were improved as well. You can check out my results here:  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1432713/using-waterfall-and-etc-graphs-to-analyze-room-response/150#post_22551641

 

 

Thanks Jerry. This will be my first attempt at treating any room. I am concentrating my efforts on the bass (initially at least) as this is where I think I will benefit most. Audyssey Pro is doing a nice job for the upper frequencies I think (and for the bass as well, but traps can only help). I am going to use some 'superchunks' in the corners and then a couple of regular traps elsewhere - depending on what I can fit in, into this small awkward room of mine. I am still researching traps. And they are easy to move around too prior to finalising their location with the aid of OmniMic and ears so I can experiment some too. I'm hoping the traps will arrive by next weekend so I can do some work before the F2s arrive on Monday week.

 

EDIT:  I just skimmed your thread - great job! I couldn’t tell from your photos but did you treat the ceiling at all?  If so, what did you use and where?

Edited by kbarnes701 - 11/4/12 at 2:01pm

I have pretty much the same layout (except it is mirrored). The table actually is not the main concern here. You can always move it away and move back when you want, or cover with something soft and absorbing. The most problematic is the walls above the TV and main listening position. As the walls are parallel and have no furniture they are very reflective and some acoustical treatment is needed. At the back wall absorbing material is also required as you sit very close to it.

^^^

ummm....

Note that if you move the table out of the way for listening, then you need to have it moved out of the way for the Audyssey calibration too. Same goes for covering it with absorbent material - if the material is there for the calibration, it needs to be there for listening and  vice-versa.

 

b)3.   Should I move anything out of the room before running Audyssey?

 

I doubt if many people will go to the trouble of moving furniture every time they want to use their system though.

 

Room treatments etc are always a good idea, but I'm not sure what all this has to do with the OP's question about which way his sub should face ;)