"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1947

Jerry, Thanks for the picture and reminder to get the center channel 'OUT'. The wife and I just watched a movie with the center out and up in front of the TV. She commented right away and I could hear the difference too. I guess I had stuck it back in it's hole because my mind didn't understand how it could make such a difference. Well my ears understand now. My mind.... well, of all the things I've lost, I miss my mind the most.

Basically you have a null in 50-60hz range that cannot be fixed with eq. Eq can only fix peaks.

Options: move sitting position, move subs, add another sub to cancel null. This is why most people recommend 2 subs minimum.

Dealing with bass nulls simply SUCKS. Especially if your subs are installed in-wall. I am buying additional floorstanding subs even though they ruin the decor. EQ with audyssey or any orher eq does not correct nulls. Effective bass traps and tuned traps are visually eyesores on most typical rooms. Best option is ample sub placement options for addressing nulls.

 

Weird goings-on there, Jeff. I think your decision to send the unit for repair is the right one - the only one - in the circs. Glad you managed to get a reasonable calibration done though. 

 

Welcome to the Black Arts :) Mic positioning is the subject of a lot of intense debate and speculation. Some prefer to measure just for the MLP (me) and others prefer to measure for the whole room. Only experimentation can tell you which is best for you IMO. I also sit slightly off-centre and, like you, I regard the MLP as being where my head is. When I have tried it with the mic centred between my two seats I have noticed a shift of the entire soundstage to the left - taking the MLP as being where my head is restores the balance L to R - but of course only for my seat. As I am the only person who really cares about all this, I prefer to optimise for my own seat. Occasionally, I have done a token two measurements on the other seat but overall my preference is for measuring a fairly tight pattern around the MLP/my seat.  All of this is contrary to Audyssey guidelines which recommend well-spaced measurements over the room - but I am fairly sure that Audyssey are saying that so they can get a pretty good result for everyone (with inevitable compromises) rather than a great result for one seat and less than great results for the other seats. They have to provide a single set of guidelines that work for most people whereas we can deviate from that if we wish to optimise for just one seat. All IMO of course.

 

I go into this in more detail in the FAQ, here - also note the links at the bottom of the answer:

 

d)3.   Where should I position the mic for best results?

 

I don't think so, based on the many people in the thread who have reported improvements when bringing the centre speaker clear of shelves, credenzas etc. If the centre speaker is pushed slightly back on the shelf it sits on, there is a high likelihood of a nasty first reflection from the shelf itself and that can cause dialogue intelligibility problems among other ills.

 

I think Jerry is right if the off-centre position is substantially off-centre - eg by a few feet. In my case, off centre is about 8 inches or so (caused by small room difficulties) and for that small distance Audyssey seems to be able to compensate entirely by shifting the image slightly to the right to give me superb imaging and a dead-centre centre spot (eg on centred dialogue). I am sure your 6 inches off centre will mirror my own experience.

 

Poor dialogue intelligibility is often caused by spurious reflections, including that from a shelf which protrudes in front of a speaker and also from any reflective coffee table or similar between the centre speaker and the MLP. The biggest improvement to dialogue in my own room came when I treated it - a vast difference, also with significantly improved imaging.

 

 

 

 

I think yours and bsoko's and Dave's posts reveal very effectively just how much so many of us (me included) take for granted in our lives. At times the issues we encounter in our hobby, and in this thread, can seem to assume huge significance in our lives, but it is only when we step back for a moment and read of experiences like yours that we perhaps focus for a while on the things that really matter. I wish you all, and all those dear to you, as good a Christmas as is possible and a New Year full of happiness and peace.

 

Also important to tilt the centre speaker up towards the MLP, as Jerry's photo shows.

The Dali MS5s are #152 each, for sure the most "heavyweight" speakers I've ever owned, including live performance stage amps. Even that matching CS4 CC is #60! thnx, guys. I went with black finish on the cab to match the speaker grills and bases and the TV, rather than add yet another color of wood to the room. I'd briefly considered placing the CC on a shelf in the cab but the cleaner look didn't outweigh the silliness of placing such an optimal speaker in a suboptimal location.

I currently have a Hsu sub with only multieq. I have thought about getting xt32 but the more I think about it should I invest better on a second sub?

 

I think it depends what you are looking for. If you currently have a problem with room modes and want to try to achieve a smoother response at your MLP or create less seat to seat variance in the bass area, a second sub would certainly be a good idea. If, OTOH, you are happy with the room's modal issues, you might benefit more from the significantly better EQ that XT32 gives over all other forms of consumer Audyssey. XT32 will benefit your bass frequencies especially, as it concentrates more of its resources there, while also giving good benefits across the spectrum. So it depends on your priorities. If you do get a second sub at any stage, then XT32 will also help you integrate dual subs better.

I think the sub has improved the dialog for sure.

Kb,
From the diagram above, it seems mic positions 7&8, which I will have when my new amp arrives, are only about 6" L &R of MLP, and maybe 10" behind? Rather than, as in the diagram, making MLP be several inches in front of your actual head/ears, do you make MLP your actual/ear location and let 7 & 8 be about 'x' (10?) inches behind the head?

In what ways can you know if there are issues with room modes besides tests? What problem would be audible?

Sorry for interrupting the discussion, but for those who were interested in the previous discussions over the various graphs of Audyssey using ETC and not showing any reflection reduction,here are two graphs from the Sherwood R-972 taken by forum member "amt" using REW on the R-972 User notes thread,along with other graphs,that show the results of Trinnov with EQ off and EQ on.

Very interesting!

I am having a problem with my rears. I cannot really hear them. I have a onkyo 818 with xt32. They are barely even noticeable .

Ay suggestions on what I can do to help this out?

When you do an audyssey calibration, do you hear the sweep tone from the rear speakers? Does your content have any rear sound or are you using something internal that creates 7:1 out of 5:1? Normal 5:1 would not play anything through your rear speakers.

If you hear the sweep tones, then it is either your source or your internal processor settings are not right. Of course if you hear no sweep tone, then you have a problem with connections or speakers.

I can hear the sweep tones. Maybe it's my placement. They are in the corners behind me facing Inwards toward my seating area. What's some good movies that will be good test for this?

Unless you have a movie that has discrete 7.1 encoding, then what you hear from the rear surrounds is a derived signal from the other channels (e.g. PLIIx). The derived signal can be subtle, often providing only ambiance. Perhaps your expectations are too high.

Edit: If you want to listen to discrete 7.1, do an Internet search on "Movies with 7.1 audio".

KB and Jerry,
Well, I decided to go ahead and run Audyssey again with new center location mounted out in front of TV (as opposed to in the shelf below TV). Speaker is tilted to point directly at ear level of MLP. Mic's MLP placed at ear height where my head would be in "my seat" (head is about 6" left of sound and video center).

Results... (single vocal, no music)
Stereo: Voice sounded dead center of screen. As I moved to right into middle couch seat, then over to right again to where my wife sits on right side of couch, it seemed that the voice would be coming from directly in front of me (as I moved right across the sound stage). Wife's seat is directly in front of RF speaker. Sound appears to come from it when seated there.
7 Ch. Stereo: I believe all channels out put the same volume (adj. for Audyssey changes). In my seat I could not tell where sound was coming from, so that is great. I guess it makes sense that moving to the right even 6 inches, the right surround became prominent and more so as I moved further right. In my wife's seat, the Rt surround dominated significantly, understandably. My take on this is that when watching a movie she will hear the right surround noises more prominently than designed and Lft surround noises a lot less prominently than designed. That is OK as she would not care.

Results... (BD Movie) Dialogue sounds great! Happy camper here.

My conclusion is that Audyssey will create one sweet spot (best dead center or close too it) and we get to decide where to make that spot. No surprise, I choose 'my spot'.

When we have friend over for a movie night, I will draw names for which guest gets 'the sweet spot'. Some one will get to feel speeeeecial!

Edit: the only variation I made from recommendations at "d)3. Where should I position the mic for best results?", was that the Mic for MLP was only about 4" in front of the back of the couch (not "12 to 15 inches to the backrest of the chair"), but the mic tip was ≈3" above the seat back. And the head cushion was flipped back over back of couch to allow that 4" gap. If this 12 -15 " is still preferred, I 'll try that soon or with the new AVR coming soon.

Thanks for the help and your experiences guys.
Edited by davekro - 12/23/12 at 7:12pm

Dave,

Nice to hear the progress you have made. Post a picture of the smile!

Edit 2: Go to http://www.blu-raystats.com/Stats/Stats.php, and filter on 7.1 audio.

Also check out the link on the AVS Home page for "25 Best Blu Ray for 2012. A few were 7.1, which made me smile and go to Netflix to add to my que!

http://www.avsforum.com/a/25-top-blu-ray-releases-for-2012

: o ) or better..............
Edited by davekro - 12/23/12 at 7:26pm

"Great" as in you prefer not being able to localize sounds?

Ya I thought that was not good

 

It is important that the MLP be where your head is for the first mic position. After that, the other positions can be wherever you want them to be - in a very close, tight pattern or a looser pattern. Some people whose opinions I respect use a very tight pattern - the mic positions at less than one foot apart. Others use mic positions about 1 foot apart, clustered around the No 1 seat (which is what I do). If you are deviating from the Audyssey recommended pattern then only experimentation can tell you what will give you the result you are looking for. But I would always say that the MLP should be where your head is, when you are primarily concerned with just one seat.

 

Boomy or 'one-note' bass. Slurred or muddy bottom end - flabby, not tight. Or, if you are sitting in a null,  lack of bass at the seating position but plenty of bass elsewhere. If your bass is tight and well defined with minimal 'overhang' and goes as deep and as loud as you'd expect, chances are everything is OK. All rooms have modes - it's just a question of managing them by moving the sub and/or the MLP, adding treatments/bass traps and/or electronic EQ (although the latter is very limited in what it can do for true nulls).

 

If you are musically inclined, play a track with very good bass guitar and listen carefully - do you hear all the notes playing, with the correct relative loudnesses, or are some notes missing or over/under-emphasised? Remember that the open E on a bass guitar is only 42Hz, so this won't help you with movie tracks that have loud content well below that frequency, but it is still a very useful test. If the music sounds OK, then go on to a movie disc with good bass and listen some more - this time concentrating on how tight the bass sounds really low down. If it's a muddy mess, you have room issues.