"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1949

guys i have a question , what do most of u guys use for reference level for music listening? 10db or 15db offset? anyone can chime in on gaming as well?

i have the offset set to 5db for movies and blurays, 10db for cable tv watching , not sure what to set it for music, im debating between 10db or 15db. and with games (xbox 360) im clueless as to what reference offset to use.

I'd think that if you like an offset with movies, you'd likely be happier with a -15 offset for music. There is not magic bullet always correct answer because ther is not reference level for music mixing or mastering, and nobody ever tells you what the 'Effective reference level" might have been. I tend to be conservative - I'd rather udnercorrect than overcorrect. ALso pushes for -15 for music.

I don't game, but it's a different thing. Should be somewhat easier to assess with your ears, as IIRC many gamers find that given the way games are mixed, the DEQ increaseses to the surround levels are very noticeable and often unwelcome. Likely suggests -15 for games too, but IDK, really.

I think RLO settings are personal preference. JHAz uses 15 for music, I use zero. Problem is, different values sound different, depending on what you are listening to, because of the lack of standards for mixing.

FWIW, I actually don't have ROL, I use the old fashioned kludge of reducint eacdh input however much I decide. Same thing, just less easy to implement. I imagine if I had "real" RLO, I'd adjust depending on the music being played.

I don't think this does the same thing as RLO, which turns up only the surrounds and the subwoofer when you are listening at volume levels below reference. What you're doing is adjusting different inputs in an effort to volume-match them.

Oooops pbarach, RLO does not touch the MV setting at all, no volume matching involved, so in this respect it does not turn up anything. RLO shifts the equal loundess curves up and down by 5 dB increments, that's all. Play with it and verify with your own ears that whenever you adjust RLO the overall volume does not change!!!!

What you are referring to is done by DynamicEQ. And when done comes RLO for non-reference recordings other than film. In other words RLO is an instructor, it instructs DEQ to move the equal loudness curves up an down.

JHAz's method will work like RLO if he adjusts (increases/decreases) the MV oppositely proportional to the amount of offset applied to the source level. In this case, for example, if the souce level is decreased by 10 dB, the MV shall be increased by 10 dB so as to 1) restore the volume level and 2) to let DEQ apply the correct correction curves.
Edited by mogorf - 12/26/12 at 3:12pm

Actually, Feri, JHAz is adjusting the source input level, not the MV.  The benefit of using the source input is that it can be set for a specific level for each source, similar to RLO being configurable by input.  IIUC, adjusting the source level accomplishes the same thing as changing the RLO with respect to taming the effects of DEQ.  Perhaps we are saying the same thing?

Hi all again. Still fighting with Audyssey, or Onkyo, or my receiver exemplar (The Onkyo 818, Audyssey XT32).

So. Here is interesting observation. It happens with all channels, but I will only tell about center now, to simplify explanation. So, the story is.
The speaker is detected as 50 Hz (a little bit over-optimistic, but let's accept it as it is) by Audyssey and based on that crossovers are set.
I reset it to Full-Range to make measurements of what Audyssey does in isolation more clear (same happens with crossovers set by Audyssey, but it is harder to read the graphs).
This is electrical measurements (from the amplifier output), not the acoustical one. Dynamic EQ and everything "Dynamic" such as Dynamic Volume, Loudness Plus etc. is off.
Then there is the graph:

Interesting part is bellow the 50 Hz (remember, Audyssey detected it as the lowest frequency the speaker can play, so, according to the Audyssey itself and just common logic there should be no correction bellow this frequency, especially any boost to avoid distortion and the possibility to damage the speakers). But there is the boost. More than 10 dB boost! It is even well above of any other correction done in the range the speaker actually can play.

I am not asking here for help (I am dealing with Onkyo about that currently), if you do not understand why it is bad, and simply wrong, you cannot add anything to the discussion and help. If you do, and if you can measure, and have any doubts about your own system - measure it to ensure you have no such problem. And report here, if possible.

Just to avoid a lot pointless questions/discussions - to those who still want acoustical response - there are measurements for that, but is not related to described problem, read above carefully for the reason.

And just another observation I found during my Audyssey measurements. Back to the topic about Dynamic EQ and compression. As I did some measurements anyway I've just tried to turn DEQ on and see what happens there with a set of measurements under different MV levels and input signal levels. And what I see - it does compress dynamic range across the whole audio band, it is quite clear from the measurements. I have complied with my own academic interest on that topic, so I will not do any more measurements on that or publish it somehow, so if anyone wants, he can do it with their own unit. You can believe me or not, I will not discuss it, as I cannot be even 100% sure if it is working correctly with my AVR exemplar, as I have obviously some problems with Audyssey on it.

I'm not sure this adds much to your questions, but I think you have slightly misrepresented what is going on.  When Audyssey measures a speaker, it determines the frequency at which the speaker's response is down by 3dB (the F3 frequency, I believe it is called).  It reports this value to the AVR, and the AVR algorithm sets the recommended crossover frequency.  The reason I am mentioning this is that you say Audyssey established the 50Hz crossover, when it is really the AVR.  We assume that the speaker's F3 is slightly below 50Hz actually.

 

Having said this, I cannot add any insight regarding the boost that is being applied below 50Hz.  On my system, the recommended crossover for the center channel is 40 Hz.  When you look at a measurement of the pre-out, there is indeed no boost being applied below 40Hz.  Perhaps you have a defective unit?

 

This is the what I am thinking, it is remaining to convince Onkyo that it is the case.

Thanks for your measurement. It is actually hard to tell on the graph if you have the boost or not without some reference curve (the one without Audyssey), but it looks like you don't have the problem, even considering HPF applied.

Actually one reason why I am sharing this is that this could be useful to those who have harsh high frequencies as I am, but have no reference microphone to measure acoustical response of the room or it is not showing something obviously wrong. As the problem is pretty frequent may be there is some relation and it could be the easier way to identify the defect just by the fact of occurring this strange boost below F3.

I am even starting to think that the distortions that I hear in high-frequency range are actually the inter-modulation distortion caused by the boost. When clear bell is starting to sound like a drill it is pretty much explainable by inter-modulation.

EQ is still not compression. Significant eq changed change oversll spl pretty much by definition. So what?

Deq absolutely chsnged surround levels but its just a volume increase. Cranking the bass knob at the same time you torn up the volume is not compression. Dyn vol compr
esses and expands. Deq doesnt.

My rough measurements suggest that at MV -20, DEQ increases 25 Hz by 1010definition dB with a -20dBfs tone. Thats a lot but it still just aint compression

Ok a little update. I moved my klipsch rw-12d sub to the front of the stage. Moved 1 Logan dynamo 500 to he side left halfway point . Then put the other logon sub in the back right corner. I tuned them each to 73db. I am getting a pretty good bass response now. I think better then before.

I upped the db on my rear surrounds and my center channel by 2db.

I have dynamic eq on but still it's hard to understand some dialogue when there are explosion and other things goin on. If they are talking its fine.

Once I upped the dbs does that take away Dolby dts mode and he neo?

DEQ is dynamic. The amount of bass boost is not only dependant on the setting of the volume control (like a traditional loudness compensation circuit), but also on the signal levels. Set the MV to -20. Put in a 25 Hz tone at -20 dBFS (a high level). Switch DEQ on/off to see how much change it applies. Do the same test at -60 dBFS, or some other low level (do not change the MV). See how much boost DEQ applies. It is a larger amount. That is a form of frequency-selective compression. Quite a different flavor from Dynamic Volume.

I mentioned the whole audible range, this means any frequency between 20-20000 Hz, it is not EQ (read not only EQ in your terms). Even if you don't agree with science what compression means, still it is a compression even in your own terms

Volume increase? Isn't it what the most basic compressor does - volume increase when signal level diminishes?
It is cranking it even when you don't touch your MV setting...
But it is not the topic. I repeat for those who don't read, and do it last time - I observe it not only with the bass and high frequencies, it is through the whole audible range including middle frequencies.

But again - I repeat, my unit is looking to be defective, so anything out of it is not reliable. So, you might be right and it is not supposed to compress in middle-frequency range. I do not want to talk more about it with anyone who hasn't done full-audible-range measurements and did some comparisons with it. Do not take this personally, my measurements are unreliable by definition - it is just an observation of the (quite probably) faulty unit, so there is no point for disagreement and no point to discuss it further.

 

Here is the left speaker pre-out (red is with Audyssey off, blue with Audyssey on, DEQ off), no smoothing:

 

The guide recommends setting the sub trim so that the final value comes in at -3.5db to +3.5db after auduessey calibration. Any disadvantage to setting the subwoofer gain so that it is -6db when calibrated versus -3db to allow for more upward adjustability of the sub trim? Seems like that would allow up to a 6db gain to be applied without running into postive range.

the guide says this...

You may want to consider this comment from Ed Mullen, Director of Technology at renowned subwoofer manufacturer SVS:

"A general rule when level matching the subs and the speaker channels is to run the gain hotter at the subs and the AVR sub trim level cooler. That keeps the AVR sub signal clean and allows upward adjustability to run the sub hotter if needed."


In other words, it may be better to turn UP the volume control on the sub so that the AVR sets your trim lower (i.e. to a bigger minus figure).


However, the manual for my pb12-nsd recommends running the sub at -3db when manually calibrating and if you exceed -5DB or +5DB, adjusting trims and recalibrate so your desired level ends up at -3db. in other words it does seem that going to a negative number greater than -5 has some drawbacks.

Perhaps yes. But what I wanted to say is this. With an AVR that has RLO and one is comfortable with an MV set to -20 dB for music, the MV does not have to be touched to preserve the same volume level or better to say SPL.

But with AVRs without RLO the amount of source level drop shall be compensated by cranking up the MV in order to enjoy the same SLP. If the source level has been turned down by say 10 dB, the MV shall be turned up by 10 dB as well to restore the same SPL. Now, in this case the same SPL will be achived at -10 dB MV setting instead of the previous -20 dB.

Are we still saying the same thing Jerry?
Edited by mogorf - 12/27/12 at 4:39am

I believe so. At the MV setting of -10, this will have the same effect as setting RLO to 10 and playing at MV -20.

That's a good point Jerry - and an interesting one. I currently use a RLO of 5, but if I adjust the input level instead, I can use 1dB increases instead of the 5db increments.  So if I adjust the input level by 7dB, for example, then my MV will be lowered by 7dB and this will affect the point at which DEQ operates. IOW, if I am at 0dB then DEQ will have no effect. But if I raise the input level by 7dB, then I will listen at -7dB for 'reference' and so DEQ will be operating. And on a per-source basis. Cool :)

Personally, I am HIGHLY skeptical of the over precision of this advice. It's one thing if your sub is WAY out of range and you end up near the extremes, but -5 or -6 is fine as far as I'm concerned. I haven't seen any concrete evidence that a setting of -3 is "better" than -6 other than allowing more room for downward adjustment.

I'm happy to be convinced but, like the mic position charts, I think this is one area where the obsessive tendencies of the lovely folks in this thread causes people to obsess unnecessarily over unimportant details. I don't have have a precise wire frame (sorry to pick on you davekro) nor a tape measure for mic measurements, and my sub comes in at -5 or so usually, and somehow nothing has blown up yet

 

No disadvantage to setting the sub gain to give a trim of -6dB. I do the same because I know I will probably want to increase the sub trim by 2-3dB and if I start at -6dB then I can adjust by 3dB and still have a trim at -3dB, which is within the 'ideal' range.  I avoid sub trims in positive numbers because I fear clipping the sub amp's input.

-3 to +3db is just a guide - expressed that way for simplicity and safety. Like you say, -6dB is fine - and if, like me, you want to run the sub up to 3dB hot, then doing so puts you nicely back in the +/-3dB range anyway.

No. A conmpressor reduces volume when the signal increases. A compressor, in the compression stage, increases absolutely nothing. Ir reduces the amount the signal is alolowed to increase so that, say, a 10 dB spike in the incoming signal yields a 3 dB increase in SPL at the output. THus it reduces overall volume. That's why there's a gain knob at the end of the chain- - to let you get average level back up to where it would have been before you sliced off all the higher SPL parts. It is called "make-up gain" pretty universally.

If I increase every slider on a 32 band graphic EQ, I have added about 12 dB to total output and I have compressed precisely nothing (unless the EQ's internal amplification cannot handle the gain, but that's another matter). EQ increases or decreases levels, by definition. Just more or less precisely from a frequency standpoint.

can anyone chime in on what reference offset they use for xbox 360 gaming? 5db perhaps? im pretty darn sure games aren't mixed at 0 reference.

What is RLO. Thanks

Reference Level Offset

g)3.   What is Reference Level Offset in Dynamic EQ?

Am I the only one who is wants to end this DEQ-is-compression topic and let them think whatever they want? Otherwise, let's figure a way to bottle the "discussion" and sell it as a cure for insomnia.

I am too, I am too! +1