"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1950

 

LOL. 

+1. = 2

Hi Igor,

Seeing your fight with Audyssey and members here, I might probably do the followings just in order to scrap out some points.

1. Would go to Hometheatershack's REW forum, show them the graph, especially the boost in the low frequency region and carefully describe the way you have the measuring gear setup and calibrated. I have a fear there is someting in the way you are doing the measurement that results in such a low end boost, but maybe (probably) in real life it is not there. Especially that you have mentioned that the phenomenon exists for all speakers in your system, not only for the center.

2. While using REW, I would engage Generator, setup a log sweep and listen carefully to that lower range in question to hear and compare to the higher range whether that boost is really there for your ears or not. A 10 dB boost will clearly be audible.

Whaddaya think?

I posted this 5 days ago, and have had no answer offered.

Could someone here please help me with this issue. Thanks, Steven.

It may be me who couldn't follow up your discription thoroughly, but I would threat the front two Apogee Mini-Grand speakers as a whole, i.e. the subwoofers would serve as an integral part of the Front L&Rs and would buy two separate powered subwoofers (with gain control knob on the plate amp), especially that you mention you are going to set up a 9.2 system where the .2 really means 2 separate (-ly placable) subwoofers. Unless otherwise you are looking forward for, ...uhmm,...unnecessary complications!

How does that sound?
Edited by mogorf - 12/27/12 at 10:50am

No fight with members, only with Onkyo (and Audyssey in it)

Whadda I think? I think you haven't read the message you are replying to, as people often do Well, this happens with me too sometimes.
1) As there is a reference curve (black line on the graph, measured with Audyssey off) that is flat like hell (except not calibrated, but it is not significant as long as we are comparing to this line), it pretty much ensures that my setup and measurements are correct. OK, I haven't mentioned what the black line is... But...
2) The range in question is below 50 Hz, i.e. the frequency the speaker is incapable to play, except if to produce distortion (and what it actually does in reality, this is why I am started the fight with Audyssey). So there is no point in listening how it sounds - It should be quiet in the first place.

And I've got already an alternate measurement from AustinJerry - big thanks to him! At least it proves that what I have is not a common thing happening with Audyssey and there are units in this world that are working correctly, and we now know how it actually look in this range when things are working correctly.

Sorry to ask the obvious, but can you go into REW->Preferences->Soundcard tab-> Sample rate? Depending on your soundcard it could be set either to 44.1 kHz or 48 kHz (or else)? Care to confirm? Choosing the wrong sample rate can end up in whacky graphs!!


Can't disagree more, so there is always room to listen to how it sounds, thus a verification of whether the measurements were taken correctly or not! It really shouldn't take more than a few minutes to do this verification test of the ear, eh?


AustinJerry's measurements don't prove anything for your system, it's a proof of his system working correctly, isn't it?

44.1 kHz, but do you really see something whacky in the reference graph? Both are all the same settings except the Audyssey On or Off.

Do you understand that speaker have the limit in capability what low frequencies they can play (loud enough and not distorted)? Also have you even tried to hear 20 Hz tone, or something close to that? I simply hear nothing unless it "shakes" the room or makes the speaker to produce distorted sound caused by clipping or other kind of distortion. There is no point in listening 20 Hz tone except if you really want to damage your speaker, so, if you disagree - good luck damaging yours But when I listening real music as a test I hear pretty much easily the intermolulation distortion added by this boost.

BTW, what do you think, what increase in power is needed to play something 10 dB louder?

I know, my English is far from perfect, but what made you think I meant something different

Care to set it to 48 kHz, rerun the measurements and post the graph?

Your posted graph is a measurement of pre-outs, no speakers involved! Go figure!

Igor, 10 db is 10 times the power

double the power is 3 dB.

I am too lazy to do something that will not change anything.
So what? I have measurements with speakers involved, read the my original post again why they are not there. It is not in any way related to the issue I am talking about. If you do not understand the consequences of boosting the low frequencies below the capability of speakers, do not know what is the intermodulation distortion, the clipping, etc., there is nothing to talk about with you. I will not learn you here, one hint have been given to you already, you have ignored it, so, I repeat - what do you think, what increase in power is needed to play something 10 dB louder?

dB is a logarithmic value:

Log of 2 (i.e. double) is 0.30103 x 10 deci = 3dB (3 deciBel)

Ok, good math, now think what happens if you pass 20 Hz boosted by 10 dB (10x the power of everything else) when listening at the reference level?
With both, the amplifier and speakers.

Igor,

Let's talk after you have rectified the validity of your measurement graphs, ...48 kHz sample rate setting in REW + listening test, both!!!

They are valid. I don't have to prove anything to you if you can't see obvious things on the graph and don't know the basics.
You still haven't provided any reason why do you think they are wrong and 48 kHz will change something. I have pointed you to the no-audyssey reference curve already, do you see something strange on it?
If you can't listen, are ignoring everything, and only telling other people are wrong without proof, if the acoustical frequency response is your only mantra, and distortion doesn't matter for you, there is really nothing left to discuss with you.

I repeat again and the last time - I don't hear 20 Hz tone. Even if my speakers would be capable to play it I hardly would hear it unless it is very heavy levels (basically statistics tell that the level you can hear it equals to the level of pain at that frequency)... That levels will simply damage my speakers (and my ears). Damage yours if you like! I could hear 40 Hz tone, but to produce needed sound pressure comparable with everything else it will make woofers in my speakers to move with the amplitude that also will damage them! If you have larger woofers in your speakers - you can probably listen them at that frequency without damaging, but do not recommend it to anyone just because you can and your speakers are capable (if they are).

Over and out.

"An informal way of saying 'bye'."

Often used in the armed forces, followed by a salute.

Also works well with a wink...

Urban dictionary

I have been using REW for years, and 44 vs 48 K has never made any difference in the measurements, Feri. Setting up REW is a PITA, so I can understand Igor's reluctance to do something that, IMHO, won't mean anything.

Jerry, I can never understand why people rely more on grahps that ear tests! Wouldn't an ear test verify what the graphs show, ...or don't show? And if not, why is a graph more reliable than an ear test? Isn't it all about audible verification of what have been graphed? If Igor is not ready to hear what his graphs show then I have nothing to add here, but cheers to his system! .

For one, you can't hear below a certain Hz, you only feel it. But probably the largest reason is preference vs reference. Your ears and mind will tell you what you prefer to hear. Proper measurements and adjustments will get you closer to what the director intended you to hear.

It's not disimilar to why people calibrate their TV displays to a reference standard. Even though greens and reds that "pop" off of the screen may be visually appealing to many, I want to know I'm seeing what the Director intended and not what my mind thinks may be more pleasing.

But to each their own of course!

 

You're assuming perfect ears, Feri. I can't personally hear frequencies at the very top of the HF range, but that doesn't mean I don't want to know what is happening up there - for one thing, others who might listen to my system CAN hear those high frequencies, so relying on my personal ear tests to get it right would not be a good idea.

 

I find graphs to be a much easier way to see what is going on in my room than simply by listening. For example, when I had that problem with one of my (former) subs needing a phase reversal, I had no idea, simply from listening, what the problem was. I had a 'sense' that my bass 'wasn't right' or as good as it should/could have been but I could have conducted listening tests for ever and still not got to the bottom of what needed changing. One OmniMic test that took less than 10 minutes revealed the problem AND allowed me to fix it.

 

I have found that if it measures good, then it also sounds good. The flatter I have managed to make my graphs and the better I have been able to control in-room reflections and decay times (by measuring and then making changes), the better the sound has been when I have subsequently listened. Again, I could have listened for a long, long time and that would have told me that my room was ringing, but it wouldn't have given me any clue as to how to fix it, other than by blind experimentation/listening tests - which could have taken for ever.

 

So yes, I do rely on graphs/measurements more than ear tests. But the point is, that reliance leads to better sound, which my ears then appreciate.

I don't understand.  You asked Igor to run both a 44K and a 48K REW measurement, and listen to both.  How can changing the REW sampling rate alter what he hears?

 

Can we move on to something more interesting, please?

Long time between..... scans :P

Finally removed all the junk in the room etc and got ready for sweep again.

Ok selected in AMP section prior to sweep FRONT A+B and it still hasn't done speakers B ???

Also an anomaly maybe can't select speaker back with wides running???? im still only up at 9 speakers.... this is with amp selected as FRONT B (height)
Of course I can select wide and s-back in normal.....


mmm ??

I didn't ask such a thing Jerry. Read my posts again, please.

Why move on? Was Igor's problem already solved?

P.S. He's gonna get a new Audyssey mic from Chris K. soon.

Because he said so, evidently.

Or if Feri wants to talk about something, and want experimenting, we might convince him to listen his own center speaker and tell us what he thinks about his 20-50 Hz range

Me waiting for mic. from Chris, so nothing really new from me can happen till the end of next month

 

A couple of things.

That sure looks unusual, to have Audyssey apparently correcting big time below the -3dB point. And BTW, that's what Audyssey measures, the point at which in room the speaker has dropped 3 dB within it's bottom end rolloff. With a 50 Hz crossover, all we really know is that the minus 3 dB point is less than 50 and more than 40 Hz (assuming the next crossover frequency is 40 Hz). There have been odd problems over the years with particular receivers' implementations of Audyssey, and you have to wonder whether that's the case here. (there was a big low frequency oops in connection with one or more Denon receivers in the -09 or -10 series, IIRC. Fixed via firmware). What Audyssey is SUPPOSED to do, AFAIK, is not stop correcting at the -3dB point, but sort of "slope off" the correction so you aren't entirely uncorrected in a frequency range where the speakers's contribution to total output may be important. But those boosts sure look like the system is trying to make your speaker flat to 20 Hz, which is contrary to the way I understand Audyssey is supposed to work. Of course if you use a sub, the crossover in the receiver is cutting off the below-50 Hz content going to the speaker, which will certainly help (and likely make the issue irrelevant below 35 or 40 Hz, I'd guess). If I saw that, I might increase my crossovers to 60, 70 or 80 Hz. Lots of folks here say 80 should be everybody's standard. In my room with my system, I found that once calibrated the differences with real content between crossovers at 40 - 80 Hz were miniscule, so hopefully the higher crossover could only do you good . . .

Not at all surprised if you cannot hear deeper tfrequencies from this speaker. To sound as loud as 60 dB in the midrange (quieter than normal conversation) a 20 Hz sound has to be over 100 dB, according to equal loudness curves. 30 Hz would need to be 90 dB plus to sound as loud as a midrange 60 dB sound. So for many normal speakers, the ability to reproduce those tones loudly enough to be heard (other than by their distortion products) is indeed unlikely. Although, as you doubtless know if you hang out in the subwoofer threads, there are a number of folks here who can get 20 Hz and below cleanly in their rooms (room gain makes a big difference) and many say they hear sub-20 Hz tones. I cannot contradict them, as my system won't go that loud that low without loads of distortion.

edit: I couldn't see the graphic while typing this and misremembered where the overcorrection started (I had it in my head as at 40 Hz). I'd at least experiment with an 80 hz (the lowest note on a standard tuned guitar) crossover.

Assuming, worst case, that the crossover is -3dB at the crossover point, at 80 Hz you'd be minus 3 dB (half power). One third octave below that (63 Hz technically, the frequency of the lowest note on a cello, but 60 is close enough) the crossover is at minus 7 dB. One third octave below that, at 50 Hz,(2/3 of an octave below the crossover point) the crossover has sound down by 11 dB, less than one tenth the power that would be delivered wihtout Audyssey or the crossover). At 40 Hz (lowest note on an upright bass or normally tuned 4 string electric bass) the crossover has you at -15 dB, just over one 40th of the power that would be delivered without Audyssey or the crossover. By 30 Hz (just above the 27.5 Hz fundamental of the lowest note on a piano ) the crossover is minus 19 dB, just over one one-hundredth of the power that would be delivered without Audyssey or the crossover.

The net result would be that by the time you get to the Audyssey overcorrection frequency, the crossover reduction is such that the speaker never gets even the power it would receive if you connected it without a crossover (ie full range) and without Audyssey.

And I wouldn't stop pushing Onkyo on this issue either. Whileat least for folks who use subs, it's not likely to be a huge problem, anybody running full range with a 10 dB boost over a full octave below the minus 3 dB point (even with room support) could foreseeably damage speakers if they play loud.
Edited by JHAz - 12/28/12 at 9:28am

 

Feri,

 

I was commenting on your post in which you said "Let's talk after you have rectified the validity of your measurement graphs, ...48 kHz sample rate setting in REW + listening test, both!!!".   I'm sure I misunderstood your intention, but when I first read the post it sounded like you were asking Igor to take both a 44K and a 48K sampling measurement, and listen to the system after each REW measurement for any difference.  Of course, this would make no sense, since REW doesn't alter the calibration.  My apology for misunderstanding your intention.  However, I stand by my original claim that the sampling rate would not be the cause of the pecularity Igor is seeing in his measurement.

"There have been odd problems over the years with particular receivers' implementations of Audyssey, and you have to wonder whether that's the case here. (there was a big low frequency oops in connection with one or more Denon receivers in the -09 or -10 series, IIRC."

And in the first implementation of XT32 in the Onkyo 3008/5008;

Dated 09/02/10:
Quote:
Originally Posted by audyssey

Here is the latest information that I have received. Onkyo has identified a firmware issue that affects the results of the MultEQ XT 32 calibration. Their engineering team is working very hard to fix it. They expect to post a firmware update on their website very soon (in the next few days)."

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1261548/new-onkyo-tx-nr5008-tx-nr3008/210

It seems that this problem, as of now, is only happening with the 818. I too, have also been unhappy with the extremely boosted highs. I watched my first Blu-Ray, "Raiders of the lost Ark" a few nights ago and listening at almost reference level the highs were so hissy that it was painful to watch/listen to. I expected greatness, I got garbage. To be fair, the LFE was fantastic. When watching D-TV box at lower levels it's not as pronounced, but still noticible.

I've tried the brown mic and 3 of the silvers, toed in the speakers, made sure the tweeters matched the mic height and all the other tips/tweaks, and it makes no difference, it's just too damn hissy and WRONG. My older 707 with basic MultEQ, was never like this.

I gladly accept your apology Dear Jerry, you have just restored my self-confidence! OK, now we can move on, especially coz I though we are going to do another set of troubleshooting spree 8like in to good-old-days) for Igor by throwing in question and ideas. I see nothing wrong even with bad ideas as long as they can be ruled out of the puzzle.

So, the reason I brought up the sample rate idea was because IIRC REW defaults to 48 kHz, while Igor didn't mention anything about his soundcard, but only admitted he has REW set to 44.1 kHz. To be honest, I wouldn't volunteer to predict what that s/rate difference would cause for creating FR graphs, just thought it would be a good idea to cross check it. If it's a bad idea, I'm ready to give it up.