AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1957

post #58681 of 62238
1/4/13 at 2:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by ggsantafe View Post

Looks like AVSers are storming the gates and manufacturers of both microphones can't keep up wtt the demand

Yes, several of us are foaming at the mouth.. . wink.gif

I take full responsibility.. It's all my fault!! biggrin.gif
Reply
Reply

Gear mentioned in this thread:

post #58682 of 62238
1/4/13 at 2:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mogorf View Post

I'm sure many of you are aware of this thread here on AVSForum: New mic option from the good people at Minidsp
Just in case someone missed it. smile.gif

Thanks, Feri. All things considered, this seems like a better option due to the built-in PNP, at least since REW support is something the MiniDSP folks are aware of. For us "laypeople", can someone explain what the practical consequences of the UMM-6 having "truly individual calibration", 0/45/90 degree axis, and Polar Response (as per jevansoh) would have over the UMIK-1, if anything, for typical use on a mic stand?

Looking forward to working with our new room assessment paradigm some time in February cool.gif

(not that REW is that new, but being on the ground floor of an evolving "best practice" methodology for pre and post-Audyssey (Pro) runs is exciting - hopefully I won't "REW" the day I did this, pun intended)

Hi Stuart, just responded to your PM.

To answer your question in more detail, please see my response to Batpig a few posts up.

The short answer is...It could be a big deal.. The Mini-DSP Mic only comes with 0 degree calibration, and even that is subjective as to how accurate it is.

So if you point the mic towards the ceiling (90 degrees) to compare with the way you take your Audyssey measurements then you must not use the calibration file it comes with.

If you order the UMM-6 and have an SPL meter (to use only ONE TIME for the initial setup, so borrowing one works great in this case and is the only other step to use it in REW instead of the Mini-DSP mic where you don't need to do this step) you will get a calibration file for 0, 45, and 90 degrees and can take all kinds of different measurements/positions.

Hope this helps,

--Jason
Reply
Reply
post #58683 of 62238
1/4/13 at 2:55am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

How do the microphones themselves compare? Assuming built-in support will come for the UMM-6 in REW, which mic would be the better choice?

These products are both pretty new, so they haven't been out long enough to compare DOA or defective rates and build quality looks to be the same.

Condenser mics in general are actually pretty accurate out of the box and great for comparative measurements (the calibration file(s) are for absolute measurements for those of us who are picky enough to want to know exactly, down to a db or so what is going on) in all but the lowest and highest frequencies.

They both come with a carrying case and are both about the same size.

There is one potential caveat with the Mini-DSP Mic though.

If you have a problem with it, it will cost more and take longer to resolve as the Mini-DSP Mic is shipped directly from Hong Kong whereas the Dayton UMM-6 Mic (similar to the one that comes with Omnimic, if not the same) ships from the USA.

As far as "better choice" goes, it depends... Like most things, you have to pick which features/options you want.

If you aren't exactly "computer literate" or are scared of new things, then get the Mini-DSP Mic.

However, if you don't mind just a few more clicks and can follow very well written tutorials/guides and also have access to an SPL Meter to use just one time, then the UMM-6 Mic is my choice as it comes with a very accurate calibration at 0, 45, and 90 degrees for the same money and ships from the US.

Hope that helps,

--J
Reply
Reply
post #58684 of 62238
1/4/13 at 4:38am
Subwoofer blending in MultEQ - Here's an excerpt from Chris K. :

"The DSP chip in the AVR has many functions to perform. Only a few are related to Audyssey....

MultEQ can see the subwoofer just fine. It can also see every other speaker individually. What it can't see is the blend of a speaker and sub. To do that it would have to ping the speaker and sub together through the crossover filter in the AVR. That has not yet been possible from the AVR makers.The crossover should be done in MultEQ. We have actually developed and showed this, but the AVR makers have not agreed to put it in yet. It's the right way to go.

The reason to look at the blend is that the decision of crossover should really be based on a multiposition measurement across the listening area. That involves some weighting of the responses. "

Something is moving, eh? smile.gif

Full thread here.
Reply
Reply
post #58685 of 62238
1/4/13 at 4:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

 
I will probably be PM'ing you if that's okay, as I do feel we have (I take full responsibility here) totally derailed the Audyssey thread and think we need a new/dedicated thread, but have some questions and want to discuss some logistics before starting one.

Thanks,

--J

 

Thanks for the detailed reply, Jason. Yes, of course, by all means PM me as often as you wish! I am definitely looking forward to a dedicated thread.

Reply
Reply
post #58686 of 62238
1/4/13 at 5:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

If you aren't exactly "computer literate" or are scared of new things, then get the Mini-DSP Mic.

However, if you don't mind just a few more clicks and can follow very well written tutorials/guides and also have access to an SPL Meter to use just one time, then the UMM-6 Mic is my choice as it comes with a very accurate calibration at 0, 45, and 90 degrees for the same money and ships from the US.

Hope that helps,

--J

 

I am not really 'Windows-literate' (long time Mac user) but I am happy to learn new things. FWIW I have ordered the UMM-6, based on your recommendations. I figured that, with your help, and the help of others on the thread, I would soon be able to overcome the extra bits of difficulty involved in setting up, and once done, I would have a superior system with a better mic. I am looking forward to getting started. One thing - we are really, really derailing the Audyssey thread and the sooner we move to a dedicated thread the better IMO. Call it anything for now - it can always be retitled later - Simplified REW Setup and Use for Audyssey Users Thread would do for now. Or just Simplified REW Setup and Use Thread.

Reply
Reply
post #58687 of 62238
1/4/13 at 5:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by arigg View Post

Okay. I'm likely to annoy people by asking a repeat question. But........ how much better is MultEQ XT over 2EQ, subjectively. Read the Audessey site looked at the graphs.... etc. But I bought a new Denon with considerable weight favoring the Audessey upgrade in my decision: with Bass correction especially. I want tight sexy comfortable bass, not the boom boom in my zoom zoom ear shattering of a less than perfect room! I want to be impressed: will I be!?!? smile.gif thanks guys!

 

Each step on the Audyssey ladder is an improvement over the one before it, culminating in XT32. XT32 does a much better job on the bass than XT (I have had both).

 

Have a read here:

 

h)2.   What is the difference between the various versions of MultEQ?

Reply
Reply
post #58688 of 62238
1/4/13 at 5:16am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Interesting...I've always focused primarily on the lower (<200 Hz) frequencies with OmniMic, particularly post-Audyssey calibration adjustments to the crossover points with the distance tweaks, so I've done almost exclusively the straight-up mic. However, it makes me wonder if I'm understating the impact that I'm getting from adjusting the Curve Editor (where I've focused more on mid and higher frequencies) that way, when examining a more full-range FR plot. OTOH, I'd think that "straight-up" not only better matches what is recommended for Audyssey, but with multiple speakers, is less confusing.

I also did some quick reading on UMIK and REW, on the MiniDSP UMIK sub-forum and the dedicated REW forum on Hometheatershack respectively. On second thought, the learning curve looks steep enough that I might buy the USB mic, but hold off putting much time into it until the hard-core tweakers (I mean you, AJ and Keith tongue.gif) get some experience with the USB Mic and REW working together with the ASIO4All software, and the growing pains are worked out on AVS in context for us less DIY types that are primarily interesting in augmenting our Audyssey setups than generating DSP filters. It certainly doesn't look as "plug and play" as OmniMic.

Of course, we won't really know until there's more hands-on experience smile.gif.

 

It isn't as PnP as OM for sure. But with all the help available in the forthcoming new thread, I am sure we will be fine with it, and get better results eventually. I am hopeful that Jason will write a 'Starter Guide' for us, detailing the steps we need to take to get set up with the new version of REW and our new mics. Once properly set up, we can then experiment with measurements, again hopefully following some sort of guide, and help each other out as we go. I am of the view that it is more important to get set up properly, with all the appropriate settings sorted out in REW, than it is to do anything else - if the setup is not right, then the measurements will be not right, or suspect.

Reply
Reply
post #58689 of 62238
1/4/13 at 5:18am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

jevansoh, are you knowledgeable on ETC measuring? That is next up for me along with decays to verify my ears making me think I need to swap some absorbers out for diffusors.

Jeff

Absolutely, Jeff!

I can teach you all you need to know! wink.gif

I'm more than happy to help you. Remember, it's thanks to you and your posts that I got started down this route, and ever since I bought your old AS-EQ1 I've spent hours a day every day on learning about all this stuff and applying it to my system.

So I have you to thank for changing my life and causing me, a lively and young person who used to spend time amongst the living and outdoors, to become a recluse and spend all my time in my basement, err..dedicated HT performing measurements and tweaking things all day long! biggrin.gif

Let me know when you're ready, and let's DEFINITELY put all this in the new thread.

--Jason

 

I am interested in the same thing as Jeff, too. I am really looking forward to getting started!
Reply
Reply
post #58690 of 62238
1/4/13 at 5:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post


Let me know when you're ready, and let's DEFINITELY put all this in the new thread.
--Jason

Thanks! Is there a thread yet? Did I miss the link?

Jeff
Reply
Reply
post #58691 of 62238
1/4/13 at 5:52am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

This makes total sense to me and is one reason I am hesitant to give up my Denon 5805CI because I can easily switch between surr a or b and I'm looking to implement a similar setup as I'm getting more and more multi-channel music.
If you guys haven't checked out the Pink Floyd Immersion boxed sets of Dark Side/Wish You Were Here, I strongly recommend it. smile.gif
--J

I have the SACD, which is all I care about. I've been a Floyd fan and quite immersed since I grooved with them on a pict. So I don't need to spend what those "sets" sell for.

Jeff
Reply
Reply
post #58692 of 62238
1/4/13 at 7:00am
Having lived with manual configuration of the mic's calibration file location and calibrating the mic with an SPL for several years, having to do these steps with the UMM-6 is not an issue. For anyone who thinks these are complicated steps, there is no need to worry. HST, if REW would add PNP support of this mic, that would be nice, and I applaud Jason's work with REW/John to make it happen. I still think the custom calibration files make this the best mic choice for now.

A suggestion for the new thread's title: "Using REW measurement techniques to optimize audio performance". We keep getting excellent posts in this forum which really need to be captured in the new thread. Is there a way to move/copy the posts into the new thread?
Reply
Reply
post #58693 of 62238
1/4/13 at 7:11am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

I have the SACD, which is all I care about. I've been a Floyd fan and quite immersed since I grooved with them on a pict. So I don't need to spend what those "sets" sell for.
Jeff

Jeff, does this mean you are a small furry animal?
Reply
Reply
post #58694 of 62238
1/4/13 at 7:43am
My Mini DSP mic has shipped from Hong Kong so I am hoping I will have next week.

I will try as Jevansoh PM'd me on take some readings at 0/90 degrees and see the differences and if they are negliable they I should be ok, otherwise, can send to get it calibrated and then start over.

Either way, I am excited as a first time user of REW and any sort of post Audyssey measurements to see what my system 'looks' like biggrin.gif

Thanks J for your support and enthusiasm on this stuff.
Reply
Reply
post #58695 of 62238
1/4/13 at 8:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Having lived with manual configuration of the mic's calibration file location and calibrating the mic with an SPL for several years, having to do these steps with the UMM-6 is not an issue. For anyone who thinks these are complicated steps, there is no need to worry. HST, if REW would add PNP support of this mic, that would be nice, and I applaud Jason's work with REW/John to make it happen. I still think the custom calibration files make this the best mic choice for now.
 

 

 

I concur entirely, Jerry, FWIW.

 

Quote:
A suggestion for the new thread's title: "Using REW measurement techniques to optimize audio performance". We keep getting excellent posts in this forum which really need to be captured in the new thread. Is there a way to move/copy the posts into the new thread?

 

I suspect a Mod can do it, but we can't. What we can do is Multiquote all the posts we want to move to the new thread, select ALL and copy then paste the lot as a new reply in the new thread. A bit ugly but better than losing the knowledge.

 

@ Jason:

 

Somewhere I saw Jason ask if I'd be happy to do a new FAQ for the new thread. I would, of course, but I would have to be spoonfed the Qs and As. But I’d be happy to take on the FAQ maintenance - it would save Jason the chore of having to bother with the linking and stuff which can become tedious as the FAQ gets longer. So Jason, if you want me to do that the answer is yes. 

 

Jason - it is a good idea when you start the new thread to 'reserve' the first half dozen posts for yourself (just create a new post with the word 'Reserved' in it). Then you can add new important info as it comes to mind, right at the top of the thread. You may, for example, want to have Post 1 as a 'Setup Guide', Post 2 as a guide to setting up the UMM-6 mic, Post 3 as a basic 101 on getting started etc etc. WRT to the FAQ, it is best left until there is a fair amount of content in the thread - if you want me to take ownership of the FAQ, let me know when you start the thread and I will post a FAQ Reserved post near the top.

Reply
Reply
post #58696 of 62238
1/4/13 at 8:22am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cdnbum88 View Post

My Mini DSP mic has shipped from Hong Kong so I am hoping I will have next week.

I will try as Jevansoh PM'd me on take some readings at 0/90 degrees and see the differences and if they are negliable they I should be ok, otherwise, can send to get it calibrated and then start over.

Either way, I am excited as a first time user of REW and any sort of post Audyssey measurements to see what my system 'looks' like biggrin.gif

Thanks J for your support and enthusiasm on this stuff.

 

You'll be getting a head start on those of us who have opted for the UMM-6 mic - not shipping till late this month!

Reply
Reply
post #58697 of 62238
1/4/13 at 9:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

Jeff, does this mean you are a small furry animal?

I have friends who are. wink.gif
Reply
Reply
post #58698 of 62238
1/4/13 at 9:45am
The thread starter should start the thread with a post and then "reserve" the second post as well. However, if posts are moved from another thread, all posts will be displayed in chronological order, i.e. the Thread Starter will still be the Thread Starter, but their posts may no longer appear first.

As a workaround, I suggest that we request that the transferred post begin with one from the Thread Starter. At that point, the Thread Starter can edit his first post ... and Bob's your uncle.

Jeff
Reply
Reply
post #58699 of 62238
1/4/13 at 9:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jevansoh View Post

These products are both pretty new, so they haven't been out long enough to compare DOA or defective rates and build quality looks to be the same.
Condenser mics in general are actually pretty accurate out of the box and great for comparative measurements (the calibration file(s) are for absolute measurements for those of us who are picky enough to want to know exactly, down to a db or so what is going on) in all but the lowest and highest frequencies.
They both come with a carrying case and are both about the same size.
There is one potential caveat with the Mini-DSP Mic though.
If you have a problem with it, it will cost more and take longer to resolve as the Mini-DSP Mic is shipped directly from Hong Kong whereas the Dayton UMM-6 Mic (similar to the one that comes with Omnimic, if not the same) ships from the USA.
As far as "better choice" goes, it depends... Like most things, you have to pick which features/options you want.
If you aren't exactly "computer literate" or are scared of new things, then get the Mini-DSP Mic.
However, if you don't mind just a few more clicks and can follow very well written tutorials/guides and also have access to an SPL Meter to use just one time, then the UMM-6 Mic is my choice as it comes with a very accurate calibration at 0, 45, and 90 degrees for the same money and ships from the US.
Hope that helps,
--J

Thanks for the detailed response on the differences. I've decided to return my (possibly defective) OM kit for now and give the new REW a chance especially since I'm relatively new to sound measuresments and not intimidated by this new setup with USB mics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It isn't as PnP as OM for sure. But with all the help available in the forthcoming new thread, I am sure we will be fine with it, and get better results eventually. I am hopeful that Jason will write a 'Starter Guide' for us, detailing the steps we need to take to get set up with the new version of REW and our new mics. Once properly set up, we can then experiment with measurements, again hopefully following some sort of guide, and help each other out as we go. I am of the view that it is more important to get set up properly, with all the appropriate settings sorted out in REW, than it is to do anything else - if the setup is not right, then the measurements will be not right, or suspect.

I couldn't agree more Keith! I look forward to getting in on the ground floor (so to speak) with this new setup since I originally went with the OM purely for the convenience factor. Having researched both OM and REW for a couple months now, I'm excited to be able to take advantage of some of the measurement features REW has to offer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Having lived with manual configuration of the mic's calibration file location and calibrating the mic with an SPL for several years, having to do these steps with the UMM-6 is not an issue. For anyone who thinks these are complicated steps, there is no need to worry. HST, if REW would add PNP support of this mic, that would be nice, and I applaud Jason's work with REW/John to make it happen. I still think the custom calibration files make this the best mic choice for now.

A suggestion for the new thread's title: "Using REW measurement techniques to optimize audio performance". We keep getting excellent posts in this forum which really need to be captured in the new thread. Is there a way to move/copy the posts into the new thread?

Based on Jason's detailed response and your opinion as well, I think I'll hold out for the UMM-6. I also think the new thread should happen sooner rather than later!
Reply
Reply
post #58700 of 62238
1/4/13 at 9:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

You'll be getting a head start on those of us who have opted for the UMM-6 mic - not shipping till late this month!

Oh geez, am I going to need to switch to this USB mic (and HDMI) to keep up with the Jones? biggrin.gif
Reply
Reply
post #58701 of 62238
1/4/13 at 12:28pm
You know what they say about "keeping up with the Joneses": "Buying things you don't need with the money you don't have in order to keep up with the people you don't know" !!
Reply
Reply
post #58702 of 62238
1/4/13 at 1:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

One thing - we are really, really derailing the Audyssey thread and the sooner we move to a dedicated thread the better IMO. Call it anything for now - it can always be retitled later - Simplified REW Setup and Use for Audyssey Users Thread would do for now. Or just Simplified REW Setup and Use Thread.

I know I shouldn't be posting here, but since the new thread is still on the launching pad, I have no way out, so forgive me please for making another hijack, but here goes.

As regards the tilte of the new thread, IMHO, Audyssey needs not to be mentioned, coz basically I think REW has no idea what Audyssey is. On the otherhand, REW can also work well for folks with Pio's MCACC or Yammi's YPAO, etc., or even for folks with AVRs without electronic room correction solutions on board. On the contrary we already know that REW can not perfectly "simulate" what Audyssey is doing for us, coz the secret sauce will still be missing. An RMS averaging of several mic positions in our environments with be essential (1 measurement is nothing!!), but the clustering, weighting, creating cluster centroids, then again weighting and setting up the final EQ curve by way of fuzzy logic is still going to be beyond the capacity of REW when it comes to reveal "Da Truth" behind Audyssey.

Just some seed for thought. smile.gif
Reply
Reply
post #58703 of 62238
1/4/13 at 1:12pm
^^^

Agreed. It will be an REW thread, not an Audyssey/REW thread. Though the context of at least the first bunch of members there will be measuring their systems in conjunction with Audyssey, putting it in the title would likely exclude a lot of members interested in REW.
Reply
Reply
post #58704 of 62238
1/4/13 at 1:59pm
I suggested a thread title that did not contain the word Audyssey but received no feedback. I don't think we are trying to uncover the secrets of Audyssey with our measurements. I think we are trying to prepare our listening environments prior to running room correction (any type), and to analyze the current state of our audio post-calibration. Impulse response (ETC) graphs help with identifying the source of certain types of reflections that affect the sound. Waterfalls help analyze difficult issues with the bass. The purpose of the thread is to learn how to generate and analyze these types of measurements, help each other with issues, share progress, post results, etc.
Reply
Reply
post #58705 of 62238
1/4/13 at 2:03pm
^^^

Yes, exactly. Is there something holding up the Thread Starter? wink.gif
Reply
Reply
post #58706 of 62238
1/4/13 at 2:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

^^^
Yes, exactly. Is there something holding up the Thread Starter? wink.gif

OH NO!!! It's like something from an S. King novel: ThreadStarter
Reply
Reply
post #58707 of 62238
1/4/13 at 2:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

^^^
Yes, exactly. Is there something holding up the Thread Starter? wink.gif

Also, what sub-forum will host it? I'm not sure it truly fits under AVR/Receivers, but other areas (DIY Speakers/Subs or Audio Theory/Chat) may pull it in tangents or esoterica (to most of us) that may limit the practical value to hands-on users of room correction software or room-based EQ. YMMV of course.

Maybe we extend AustinJerry's name to be "Using REW measurement techniques to optimize HT system audio performance", or some such.

N.B. My own UMM-6 has been ordered...ultimately I think it's a better bet given the issues, even if I may have to temporarily pick up a Radio Shack SPL to get it set up wih REW. Looks like some of us are indeed becoming apprentice sound/acoustic engineers LOL...
Edited by sdrucker - 1/4/13 at 2:39pm
Reply
Reply
post #58708 of 62238
1/4/13 at 2:30pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JHAz View Post

OH NO!!! It's like something from an S. King novel: ThreadStarter

And who gets to be the Walking Dude? eek.gif
Reply
Reply
post #58709 of 62238
1/4/13 at 2:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sdrucker View Post

Also, what sub-forum will host it? I'm not sure it truly fits under AVR/Receivers, but other areas (DIY Speakers/Subs or Audio Theory/Chat) may pull it in tangents or esoterica (to most of us) that may limit the practical value to hands-on users of room correction software or room-based EQ. YMMV of course.
N.B. My own UMM-6 has been ordered...ultimately I think it's a better bet, even if I have to temporarily pick up a Radio Shack SPL to get it set up. Looks like some of us are indeed becoming apprentice sound/acoustic engineers LOL...

Switched to a martini and an iPhone... yeah Audio Theory sounds right.
Reply
Reply
post #58710 of 62238
1/4/13 at 2:38pm
I think it belongs in "Audio Theory, Setup, and Chat". This will attract other potential particants that frequent that thread.

Be advised that there is already a similar thread here: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1435060/rew-measurements-for-room-correction-systems-ypao-arc-audyssey-etc#post_22515128. Maybe we should simply shift our conversations over there?

And then there is the thread I started late last year: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1432713/using-waterfall-and-etc-graphs-to-analyze-room-response#post_22469414. Some good explanations of ETC and Waterfalls are already in this thread.
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Receivers, Amps, and Processors

Gear mentioned in this thread:

AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)