"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1960

Depends on whether the Wides are being sent a generated or extracted signal. Audyssey DSX will generate early reflections (based on concert hall acoustics) to give the impression of a larger space; in addition it will decorrelate the Surround channels and attenuate the L/R speakers and Surround speaker by 3dB. By comparison, DTS Neo:X will extract sounds that would have phantom imaged between the Fronts and Sides and send that info to the Wides (imagine extracting a Centre channel between each Front speaker and Side speaker).

DSX Wides doesn't work on all material because the impression of a larger space doesn't work with things like outdoor scenes in a movie. A good example of this is the opening few seconds of the movie 'Cliffhanger', where it sounds exactly like a helicopter being powered up in a large hanger. Problem is, the opening shot has that helicopter above a mountain range. The effect of being indoors is uncanny (Audyssey really did their homework), but doesn't work for this scene.

That problem is basically non-existant with Neo:X because it is not attempting to do room simulation but instead bridge the gap between your Front and Side speakers, like a Centre channel bridges the gap between your Front L&R speakers. When there is common info in adjacent channels, then that info is sent to the Wide speakers. So if a sound was to pan around the room, it would go from the Front to the Wide to the Side to the Rear and so on. When there isn't any common info in the Fronts and Sides, then the Wides are silent. As such, they isn't material for which they don't work, since they are only fed sounds that would have phantom imaged there anyway.

If you have a receiver that has both processing modes, there's no reason why you have to choose one over the other, when you might prefer each depending on the source material. Just understand why one of them might not be appropriate for certain material.

Sanjay thanks for the excellent explanation. Would it be fair to assume that if I use speakers like my sides and rears for my wides I would be OK?

I would get speakers that are a closer timbre match to the Fronts than the Surrounds. With DSX, you'll probably hear the Wide speakers as loud or louder than the Front L/R speakers in order to stretch out the soundstage, so it is important that the sound you hear from the Wides remain consistent with the soundstage. It's a little less critical with Neo:X since their Wide speakers are used to transition from the Fronts to the Sides, so I would get something that is a good compromise between both. Smaller versions of your Front speakers should work in both cases.

 

JFDI!

 

 

That is exactly why I dislike DSX - it makes everything way too front-centric and messes with the surround bubble I have worked very hard to create. But I would add that I use my HT only for movies (and a bit of non-critical music from time to time) - I have always wondered if Audyssey didn't develop DSX (and DSX wide especially) for music reproduction rather than music. Audyssey says that the Height channels were not designed to provide height information as such, but to give more depth to the soundstage and this would gel better with music than movies IMO: for movies I want the height information for helicopters, thunder, footsteps upstairs and so on. Yet respected members like AustinJerry mostly turn DSX off for music and engage it for movies... I'm not sure how that fits with my own notions.

 

 

 

Again, that plays to my own point about the Wides being great for music, especially orchestral music where a broadening of the soundstage that way could give a more realistic impression of 'being there'.

 

 

This sounds much more like what I am looking for. Currently I only run Heights because my room is very difficult for wides and PLIIz serves me well. But recently I have been figuring a way to incorporate wides too and the info you give here encourages me greatly. Neo:X sounds like it will help improve the bubble for me rather than weaken it as I believe DSX does. Thanks for this post, Sanjay. I have read your remarks before concerning the way Neo:X generates its information but it has never really gelled with me as much as this time - possibly because I am now actively considering wide speakers.

 

(On that point the difficulty presented by the physical layout of the room is amusing - there are two doors into the room - currently one of the doors is inoperative because there is a big bass trap blocking it. The right Wide speaker would sort of, er, interfere with the (easy) access of the other door. I may have to end up being sealed inside.  Although I have I think, figured a workaround...)

Keith, if you're willing to take on FAQ updating/maintenance (I'll be happy to supply the raw info until you get the hang of it as I'm sure there will be a lot of repeat questions) and don't mind putting in the time, then as soon as I reply to this latest batch of questions here in an hour or so, I will start the new thread.

Sorry to all those who aren't interested in REW for derailing the thread for so long.

Things are hectic in business this time of year.

I will post a link to the new thread shortly.

Thanks again, Keith for all you do!

--J

Oops. Starting it here in just a few minutes and using Jerry's idea as I know it will mostly (at least in the beginning) contain posts from users on this thread but really don't want others to feel excluded.

Never started a thread before and appreciate all the tips for the title, reserving posts, what content should be in each post, etc.

I feel I have enough information and confidence now to go ahead and start it.

Will post a link shortly...

--J

Hmmm.. Great question and great suggestion on thread title, Stuart.

I don't know what to select. I've never started a thread before and want to categorize it properly and where it will get the most visibility from the most amount of users on the forum that would actually be interested in such a thread.

I don't want to hold up starting this any more so can that be changed/re-categorized later if I go ahead and start it now??

Suggestions would be appreciated as, again, I do feel this needs to happen ASAP and am ready to start it now.

Thanks,

--J

You're very welcome, BP. I only wish I could respond more quickly. I know what it's like getting excited about something and having to wait on an answer.

I'm going to try to do better and rearrange a few things where I can get on this thread earlier each day while others are still awake and more actively participating which will hopefully reduce the time between questions directed towards me and my answers.

That splitter would only work if you had a male to female RCA cable.

I recommend one that has the same 3.5mm plug but instead of 2 RCA Male plugs it's 2 RCA Female jacks so you can use a standard male-to-male RCA cable.

You only want to use ONE RCA cable from this jack to your AVR/Pre-Pro because the signal is mono.

I hate to complicate things this early on, but... "IF" you wish to run a test on both speakers and subs at the same time to measure how everything is playing together once you're all done configuring Audyssey, with room treatments, etc to see the final response, then at the Pre-Pro end, where you plug the one cable into your AUX input, you can get another Y-Adapter which will have One Female RCA jack to TWO RCA Male Plugs to plug into both the Left and Right on your Pre-Pro.

That's how I have mine set up, FYI.

Hope this helps, sorry for the delayed response, and hopefully I didn't confuse you any more.

--J

YES!

This truly does simplify things so greatly, i actually recommend this type of setup if at all possible.

Not only is this the simplest setup and a true plug-n-play setup, but it's much more powerful, in being able to measure every channel.

You literally only need the USB Mic plugged in and one HDMI cable plugged in from your computer to your AVR/Pre-Pro and that's it.

No splitters, no non-sense.

Totally recommended,

--J

 

Hey Jason - sure, I will be more than happy to maintain the FAQ so long as you remember that my current level of REW knowledge is just above zero ;)  I can write the Qs and As into intelligible English if I am spoonfed the basics and also maintain the hyperlinks format that we have seen in the two Audyssey FAQs. It is also neat to be able to link to external articles, as I do in the current FAQs. This would save you a lot of time as maintaining the FAQ can be time-consuming mainly because the new HTML code format editor is awkward to work with, even in WYSIWYG form - especially if the FAQ gets long.

 

Thanks for all this Jason - I am really looking forward to getting my mic at the end of the month and getting started. I have downloaded ASIO and the REW beta but not installed them yet - is there any point in installing them before I get my mic - will I be able to familiarise myself with REW or is best to wait till I have the mic?

By the way, Jerry, forgot to ask, what was the detected frequency for this speaker, i.e. what frequency your AVR set for this speaker after calibration?

 

Audio Theory seems to be the best place for it IMO. You (or a Mod) can change the Thread title later if you wish. But it's best to get it right from the get-go if poss I guess.

 

This is all great stuff that needs to be in the new thread!!

 

I wouldn't over-worry about what time of day you can get onto the Thread to reply. I think people are happy to wait a while for a reply so long as they know one will be forthcoming. Due to the time difference between the UK and the various parts of the USA, I am usually on here in my morning, which is the middle of the night for most of you guys and this doesn't seem to have caused any problems for me. My other common time to be on is late in my evening which is late afternoon for most of you - it all seems to work.

Edited by kbarnes701 - 1/6/13 at 4:58am

 

This is the way I am going to go. In the new thread a comparison of this method with the RCA method, pros and cons, would help people decide. Also, I am sure your recommendation will carry a lot of weight. 

This is exactly right. Couldn't have said it better, or in fewer words, myself.

--J

You should always measure L + Sub, then R + Sub, and overlay them to make sure they're the same. If the response differs by much, you have issues that you need to resolve either via speaker/listening position placement/movement or via room treatments.

This should be done with Audyssey OFF.

Then, when all done, and with Audyssey turned back on, it's good to do a "Final check" with L+R+Subs.

Center+Sub by itself is also good, but shouldn't be combined with L/R or L+R+C at the same time.

Does that make sense??

Will go into more detail in the new thread...

--J

Okay, I'm actually off to start the thread right now.

Do you have an SPL Meter? If so, it's a great way to get started with REW and there's no reason to wait on your USB Mic.

You don't need a pre-amp or phantom power with a SPL Meter, so if you have one, simply plug it in to the line in on your laptop and you're good to go.

I'd be happy to help you if you have any issues getting started.

This way you can learn about REW, know what to look for, how to read the graphs, etc, and by the time your USB Mic comes in, you'll be a pro!

Thanks a bunch for the offer to help and quite honestly it's the only reason I feel comfortable and confident enough to go ahead and start the thread.

I just don't have enough time to go it alone and I feel as the starter of a thread there is a certain responsibility that comes along with maintaining it.

I will be on the new thread at least once a day, like I am here, and will try to be there more often in the beginning at least, but just can't guarantee it, and since you are so active and so willing, I think between us and all the other great folks here, (you know who you are) the new thread will be very active and hopefully will offer a level of support that gets a bunch more folks into measuring and "properly" treating their rooms. That's my goal anyway.

Talk to you soon,

--J

One of the drawbacks of REW IMHO is the requirement of an SPL meter in addition to a measuring mic.

You only need this "One Time" though for any/all mics except for the new Mini-DSP UMIK Mic we've been discussing.

The Mini-DSP Mic does NOT require this. That's one of the things that make it plug and play.

Hopefully soon, the same will go for the UMM-6 Mic, but for now you do need to calibrate the SPL with an SPL Meter just once when first setting up REW.

--J

Okay guys,

I just started a new thread. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

Please take all further discussion regarding REW to this new thread and thanks again to those of you not interested in this topic for putting up with us the last few days while we've totally derailed this thread.

Now back to your regularly scheduled Audyssey discussions.

--J

Keith,

I just set up the new thread. http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs

I put a bit on info on the goals of the thread in the first post, reserved the second post for you, for the FAQ, and reserved a few more posts just in case.

Would you please, if you don't mind and can find the time, go over to the new thread and help populate it with some posts of a bunch of the important discussions along with questions and answers we've had here just to get us started and to help carry the conversation along with hopefully attracting some more participants?

That way all future discussions and answers to questions can easily happen over there without further derailing this thread but also without confusing folks over at the new thread as to where the discussion started and what each thing is in reference to.

I am also taking suggestions from everyone on here as to what all to add to that first post(s) for now and how better to get started.

Unfortunately, I have to head off to the office now, but will be back later this afternoon or early evening, just as soon as possible, and will try to check in before then if I can.

Hopefully I'll come back to an active thread and some more questions I can answer as I do truly enjoy this and really hope to attract a bunch more people interested in measuring and properly treating their rooms and dispel so many of the myths and just plain wrong information that's out there regarding these topics so people don't have to find so many things out the hard way like I did.

Thanks again, and I really look forward to working with you over there.

--J

Obviously, you do need to rerun Audyssey with different speakers. Whether to wait a few days depends on whether or not you think the new speakers will change over that period. If it were me, I'd run the calibration the moment I got the speakers into the system and a few days later I'd be kicked back enjoying it.

Many times I need to really think about what your acronymns mean ... not this time though.

I dunno about being a 'good guy'. I'm usually kind of cranky.

But you are welcome to use and abuse my thread. That's why I started it.

 

I'd imagine most people who were considering serious measuring would already have a SPL meter though?  I have two (one analogue and one digital) and have had them since way before I ever had Audyssey - way back to my Yamaha AVR which had no form of auto-setup at all, aka 'prehistoric times' ;)

I used to have one but it's been lost since before I got a measuring mic. Don't need it for OM.

 

OK Jason - I will transfer as much as possible from this thread to the new thread later today.

 

EDIT: done.

Edited by kbarnes701 - 1/6/13 at 10:07am

 

LOL!  One of my favourites from the office....

 

Talking of speaker break-in, everything I have read on the subject, outside of audiofoolery, says that the speakers get all the 'break-in' they need at the factory before release, and it takes only a matter of seconds anyway. When I had the Totem Acoustics speakers (great speakers but vastly overpriced and with an audiofool pedigree) the manual actually said to break them in for some days before serious use - but it also said I would hear benefits from passive bi-amping and even differences depending which + and - terminals I used if not 'bi-amping'. And Totem also sell little brass things to stand on top of the speakers which "improves the HF' or some similar bollocks. 

 

I'm with you and AJ on this - the benefits of immediate Audyssey calibration will far outweigh any alleged benefits of 'break-in'.

Full range (Large). Reset to Small, 80Hz.