"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1961

first post here in the Audyssey thread; hope someone can help me.
I've read the 101 and the FAQ, but couldn't find the answer there.

I've got a specific sub setup question: I'm running 1 'real' sub (BagEnd Infrasub 18) + a set of buttkickers (tactile sound) for which I use the second sub pre-out from current pre-pro, the Rotel RSP-1098. This works fine.
Next month I'm getting my Marantz AV8801 with Audyssey MultEQ XT32.

I will first do an Audyssey calibration myself (just to get to know this stuff a bit better), and will then have a Pro calibration.

Now what is the right way to calibrate the sub and the buttkickers?

OPTION 1
1. Run Audyssey calibration for sub 1(Bagend) only
2. Activate sub 2 (buttkickers) manually, after calibration.
but on page 137 of the Marantz manual it reads "if you change the speaker settings after performing Audyssey Setup, it will not be possible to set Audyssey MultEQ XT32."
So this doesn't seem the correct way to go about this.

OPTION 2
1. Run Audyssey calibration for sub 1(Bagend) and sub 2 (buttkickers)
but as sub 2 is tactile sound, the Audyssey microphone will not pickup any sound, and the setup cannot be complete
So this doesn't seem right either

OPTION 3
1. get a 'real' second sub into the system temporarily
2. Run Audyssey calibration for sub 1(Bagend) and sub 2 (temp sub)
3. replace the temp sub with the buttkickers again
but as I understand Audyssey correctly (f2 in the FAQ), XT32 will EQ to the capabilities of the LEAST capable sub.
That's not what I want, as it needs to calibrate for my Bagend, not the temp sub.

Is there an OPTION 4 which will get me what I need?

Thanks for your help!

Calibrate your system without the transducers operating. If you can find a way to output the sub channel that is not the main channel outs - zone 2 perhaps. This would feed your transducers an unequalized signal. Alternatively, you could "Y" the main sub out, but that would feed your transducers an equalized signal. If you're using the balanced out for the main sub, the RCA phono out is available.

Activating another channel on the main zone will disable Audyssey until you re-callibrate; Audyssey will not detect the transducers and wouldn't know what to do with them if it did.

Member craig john has experience with bass transducers and Audyssey, and might have different suggestions.

Jeff
Edited by pepar - 1/6/13 at 9:46am

 

Not directly related to your question, but I am curious about your pro calibration comment.  An Audyssey calibration is quite different than getting a pro calibration for your flat panel or projector, which normally gets calibrated and then left alone.

 

As you refine your listening area for best sound by adding new equipment, moving existing equipment around, adding room treatments, etc., you will find that a new calibration will be required more often than you might think.  If by "pro calibration" you mean an expert coming in and doing it for you, that will be an expensive route to take.  If you mean that you are going to purchase the Audyssey Pro Installer Kit and do repeated calibrations yourself, that will be less expensive in the long run.  Or you can just continue using the consumer Audyssey calibration in your new AVR--it will provide excellent results at no additional expense.

 

If you are not familiar with the Pro Kit, there is a nice FAQ in this post:  http://www.avsforum.com/t/1346723/the-audyssey-pro-installer-kit-thread-faq-in-post-1#post_20676480

 

Just my thoughts...

 

I just spent some time reading that thread. Unfortunately, it has degenerated into bickering with post after post turning into a pi$$ing contest between various usual suspects. So much so that the original purpose of the thread has now gone.  I hope Jason's thread doesn't get similarly hijacked and remains true to its purpose of helping people set up and use REW and interpret the graphs in order to optimise their systems.

 

+1.  It will be up to us to police the new thread so its focus stays on track.  Given the group who has expressed interest in the thread, I don't think we will have any trouble.

 

Edit:  BTW, I think an important part of this new thread will be links to other forums/threads that contain useful, on-topic information.  Advice by Amir comes to mind

Really? Maybe that's the perfect thread for us.

From what I've read, most surround processing technologies, whether extracted (PLII, Logic7) or generated (Audyssey DSX, Yamaha DSP), were developed initially with music in mind and then adapted to movies. The hardest part is converting 2-channel music into surround. By comparison, converting a 5.1 source to 7.1 or 9.1 outputs is easy. Whenever I've heard DSX Wides, I've preferred it with music rather than movies. I remember reading somewhere, either on the Audyssey site or from Chris, that DSX Heights are supposed to add proscenium reflections. If you think of Neo as extracting a centre output between a pair of speakers (Front and Side), then it is not so much adding to the bubble as it is stabilizing imaging (especially for off-axis listeners). Sounds that would have phantom imaged at those locations (IF you were sitting in the main listening position) are sent to speakers at those locations, locking those sounds to those locations (from any listening position). Same when I extract a centre output when listening to 2-channel music: there's nothing coming from my centre speaker that wouldn't have phantom imaged at that location anyway (IF I was sitting in the sweet spot). Same directionality, greater imaging stability.

BTW, since my side speakers are slightly forward of my listening position (roughly ±80° from centre), I get enough imaging between my Fronts and Sides that Wide speakers are lowest on my priority list when expanding beyond a 5.1 layout. Given 11 speakers to configure, I would do the standard 7.1 layout and use all 4 remaining speakers for Heights (one pair splitting the angles of the Fronts & Sides, the other pair between the Sides & Rears), for more of a sensation of sound above than the impression of a taller soundstage.

If you do end up adding Wides, then check out the recent 'Expendables 2' Blu-ray and the upcoming 'Dredd' BD, both of which have Neo:X encoded Height and Wide channels. There is a channel check in the 'Expendables 2' extras that puts a line of dialogue from the movie into each of the channels. When used with Neo:X, it is an excellent example of what modern surround processing (or decoding, in this case) can do. Despite the Heights and Wides being matrix decoded, there's no audible leakage to any of the other speakers. Even without proper decoding, the Wide channel information phantom images between the Fronts and Sides, just where those sounds were intended to appear. As long as your room sounds good, there's no harm in being sealed inside. Just make sure you have internet access and that there is a small enough opening to slide food through.

I indeed meant getting an expert in who has done many Audyssey calibrations with a pro-kit

Thanks for clarifying. A Pro kit plus license costs $700. Weigh that against the cost of the expert's fee, and the likelihood that you will need to bring him in more than once.

 

LOL.... 

 

Jerry is right IMO - I can’t imagine anyone only needing ONE Pro calibration. Every time you decide to change something you will need to re-calibrate.

 

 

Yes, that makes sense.

 

 

 

Yes I read that somewhere too, along with the 'greater depth' comment. Of course, the very last thing we want with movies are proscenium arch reflections!  Your Cliffhanger example is a good one. (That movie is one of my guilty pleasures).

 

 

 

Yes, agreed. I didn't express myself well - what I meant was not so much improving the bubble as not wrecking it, which is what I feel DSX does by making such a front-centric presentation. I really like the way Neo:X does it - a real speaker is always going to trump a phantom speaker.

 

 

Yes I have Expendables 2 and have played around with the Sound Check thing. I was very impressed with how 'discrete' the matrixed sounds sounded - even with just Height speakers it was a very impressive demo - makes me wonder how much better it would be if it were truly discrete 11.1.

 

 

 

:) Yes, you seem to have catered for everything there. Well, everything but one anyway ;)

I had something really weird happen over the weekend when I did my first pro calibration on my Integra DHC-80.3. I've done pro calibrations before on my DHC-80.2 so I kind of know what I'm doing . I have two Def Tech Trinity subwoofers and the pro calibration set one distance at 17.8' and the other at 3.4'. In addition, it set the trims on the subs to +4.5 and +5. I have never had a positive trim setting on any sub - or speaker for that matter. The bass was understandably hot. I ended up doing a regular calibration using the 80.3's mic and everything went back to its "normal" state - subs at -2.0 and -2.5 and the proper distance (17.8') for both. I am not sure what happened but obviously something wasn't right. Has anyone run into distances and trims being way out of wack when doing a pro calibration vs. regular calibration?

^Hi bslep. Right above your post in Keith's sig is a link to the Pro FAQ assembled by Keith and I believe there is a section addressing that issue. There has been considerable discussion there on the Pro kit thread odd sub measurement issues and useful work-arounds.

Hey thanks for the reply! I'll check it out.

Where do I go. I got my new REW compatible USB mic, have attached via HDMI to my Integra 80.2, started up REW and have no clue what to do next. (I am very spoiled by OmniMic).

Is there a step by step on how to set up the REW control panel. How to find and load the mic calibration file (nothing in the box). How to generate the test signal? How to do anything

I am already frustrated. and regretting having spent the money.

This is exactly why I'm not jumping on the REW bandwagon. I could no doubt (as you could too) learn to use REW if I wanted to dedicate the time and patience to it but why do so when Omnimic is so easy? Lets just persuade Mr. Waslow to release the 5.1 channel test disk.

Theresa, honestly, it is easy but .. well, remember "trust but verify?" I fear that it's "ease" lulls people into a sense of security. OM would need to be ... and HEY, I'm getting an idea here!!!.... measured against a standard for us to be sure that it is accurate.

Jeff

That will have to be done by someone other than myself. I'm not going to invest the time in REW required to do a comparison with Omnimic. I see no reason to doubt Omnimic's accuracy any more than REWs.

Part of my plan was to compare the two but since I can't even get off the ground, that may be a bit difficult. I am willing to give it A go if I can get a detailed step by step check list --- but the "enthusiast" who came on this thread led me to believe (dumb me) that is was almost plug and play with an HDMI cable, USB mic and the ASIO add on --- and that is just not accurate (or, at the very least, his definition of plug and play is a lot different than mine or OmniMic's)

At the risk of being branded a heretic, I think we need to keep some perspective. All of us here on AVS are audio enthusiasts to one degree or another. However, the amount of time, education, and financial commitment that we can put into this hobby are radically different. Not to mention, the amount of 'trust but verify' we can tolerate.

For some of us, simply running basic Audyssey room correction according to a systematic method is better than nothing. For others, moving up from consumer to the Pro Kit is a step up in dialing in our systems with more measurements and choice of crossovers, understanding the nature of mid-range compensation, and taking the first steps away from 'trust' to 'trust but verify' (by questioning the degree to which the Pro 'After' charts have validity). Use of room treatments, sub/speaker placement, and the like overlay all of this, but may be ideals rather than 'must-haves' for the less dedicated (or obsessed LOL).

OmniMic has certainly been valuable for at least me in thinking about how Audyssey, my room, and speakers are doing jointly. But I feel that we risk delegitimizing others that have been long-time participants on AVS if using REW becomes the single standard towards how a HT system should treated before and after Audyssey or other RC.

Right now, several of us (almost entirely Pro users IIRC) are progressing into REW training/use from either no measurement tools or the OmniMic. But not everyone will want to come along for the ride unless that hard-core enthusiast, and a few others with advanced acoustic training, deliver on the 'promise' that has generated this burst of enthusaism. And some of us may not want to stay on the bus, or have the energy/interest in the optimal string-based techniques for placement of pink fuzzy things....and this needs to be respected, at least in a general Audyssey thread.

While I understand the enthusiasm for REW (I'm getting my own UMM-6 mic within a month, hopefully), I'm still needing to be sold that REW, and the measurement philosophy that has been stated in almost absolute terms, is superior to what until three weeks ago was the 'norm', and not just an artifact of the software they prefer. Using REW should be preference, not a religious commandment.

Having said all that, let's take this whole REW thing and put it in the Pro thread, or better yet the new REW thread, where it belongs.
Edited by sdrucker - 1/7/13 at 1:41pm

The REW help file is almost like a step-by-step tutorial on how to set up REW and get to the point where you are taking useful measurements. The help file is how I got started. Are you expecting something even more simple than that?

Edit: here is where you can find how to get started: http://www.hometheatershack.com/forums/rew-forum/11707-room-eq-wizard-rew-information-index-links-guides-technical-articles-please-read.html#axzz2HKDBMwfW

Hey audioguy,

Go to the new simplified REW thread which is here already.

I'm sure it's accurate enough,

Just as an FYI, I posted some of the issues I am having with the "new" REW and got the following response from them. It appears that the "enthusiastic REW supporter" who got us all fired up may have been a bit premature on defining the new REW as plug-n-play. OmniMic and XTZ are plug-n-play and REW, in it's current state does not appear to be. It is still in Beta and as the response I got seems to indicate, it may not quite be ready for "prime time". The Beta release that actually supports recongnizing the USB mic seems to be causing a number of individual issues in getting a complete download and installation.

I am not suggesting the one should not investigate REW. I am only trying to temper (based upon mine and some other folks experiences) the overt enthusiasm that has been expressed previoulsy about how easy it is to now use. My guess is that in a few weeks/months it may be truly "plug-n-play" , but it is not (based upon my experience) as of yet.

Let's just say I have been very, very spoiled by the instant ease of use of both XTZ and OmniMic and anything much more complicated is just not worth the effort for me. I was willing to invest the $100 for the mic just to learn all about REW but I'm not willing to spend hours and hours and emails and emails trying to get it to work. I'd rather listen to music or watch movies

Oh come on...who gets into this hobby to just listen to music or watch movies? You could get a Bose system for that

More seriously, thanks much for looking into this. I saw some things pop up in the Hometheatershack forum about the beta that go along with what you said...but for now, I'm looking at the $100 as a short-term cost that may or may not pay off for a few months to come, if not later, but something short of an instant ticket to audio nivrana . Still, it's worth at least looking into until it's not. On the new REW thread....
Edited by sdrucker - 1/7/13 at 4:30pm

@ Audioguy,

 

Good feedback, but please make future REW comments in the thread we set up specifically for such discussions, and keep the Audyssey thread on-topic.  If there are shortcomings in the beta 10 REW release, let's work on them together here:

 

http://www.avsforum.com/t/1449924/simplified-rew-setup-and-use-usb-mic-hdmi-connection-including-measurement-techniques-and-how-to-interpret-graphs#post_22789786

I just got done running Audyssey. It reported my sub distance as 11.6 ft when it's really 7.6 ft.

now, the audyssey guide says it's a commona anomoly due to the LPF, EQ, electircl circuitry inside the sub and that I should leave it as is, unless I'm applying "Subwoofer Distance Tweak Instructions (Requires Acoustic Measurement Tools)",

However, the sub's LPF knob is turned to 'disabled' and it has no built-in EQ.

the reported 11.6ft is normal still?

Audyssey does not measure the distance in reality but instead measures the time delay from the original signal generated until the signal is been recognized by the Audyssey micro.
The resulting distance value shown in the setup is been derived indirectly from this measured delay using the standard speed of sound in air for conversion.
There must be a reason why the signal (wave front) from the sub took so "long" to reach the microphone.
The "Subwoofer distance tweak" is just for optimizing the phase relationship between the mains and the subwoofer to smooth the frequency response in the crossover region between both units and needs measurement gear to be useful.
Edited by gurkey - 1/8/13 at 12:24am

Just go over to Jason's new thread - link is in my sig. Read post 10 all the way through - it contains all the relevant posts from this thread, although it is a bit of a formatting mess.

 

Most of all, stick with it. Once it is set up it will be as easy to use as OM and give you a lot more options and info.

 

I assume you have loaded the ASIO driver?  If so, you need to select it on the first tab in REW preferences (is that the soundcard tab?). It defaults to Java - set it to ASIO then click the box to the right to set ASIO4ALL.  The setup IS complicated - I shuddered when I saw all the (incomprehensible, to me) options - but Jason will get us going.

 

You generate the test signal by clicking the 'generate' icon.