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"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1978

post #59311 of 62757
1/21/13 at 10:54am
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Longer is quite common as it is not actually a distance measurement but a TIME measurement, and some subs have circuitry that introduces delay. But a distance setting that is less than the actual physical distance is wrong. Are you using a mic stand with a boom arm?

(switching over to iPhone under a palapa .. by a bar ... tongue.gif)

No, just the Audyssey mic on top of a box to get it at ear level in my listening position. I've never had it come up shorter than the actual distance.

 

There's your problem right there most likely. Check out this FAQ answer:
 
f)6.    My sub speaker distance setting is closer than the actual physical distance.
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post #59312 of 62757
1/21/13 at 11:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

^^

Fischer, does your AVR have Dynamic Volume? If so, and if it's turned on, the relative volume of your surrounds will be higher (compared to the mains) at low volumes, which can sound like a bigger soundstage at lower volumes than at higher volumes. Maybe that's part of what you're noticing.

What materials are you listening to when you notice these various changes in soundstage at different volumes?

Hi !

I have the Dynamic Volume off, I experience it both when I listen to music and run regular stereo and with movie and multi-channel audio,
I experienced the same variations on my previous preamp Onkyo PR SC 5507, so that is why I ask if there is some kind of known software bug of Audyssey!
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post #59313 of 62757
1/21/13 at 12:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fischer View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by pbarach View Post

^^

Fischer, does your AVR have Dynamic Volume? If so, and if it's turned on, the relative volume of your surrounds will be higher (compared to the mains) at low volumes, which can sound like a bigger soundstage at lower volumes than at higher volumes. Maybe that's part of what you're noticing.

What materials are you listening to when you notice these various changes in soundstage at different volumes?

Hi !

I have the Dynamic Volume off, I experience it both when I listen to music and run regular stereo and with movie and multi-channel audio,
I experienced the same variations on my previous preamp Onkyo PR SC 5507, so that is why I ask if there is some kind of known software bug of Audyssey!

 

There is no known bug that causes variations in results from different measurements taken in the exact same circumstances. Move the mic 1 inch and you may get variations.

 

What, specifically, are you referring to by way of variations?

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post #59314 of 62757
1/21/13 at 12:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Doesn't matter. HST, I like my system to be warm before I use it - but it is surely just a hangover from my old tube amp days. Why not compromise - turn the system on, make a coffee and read through the 101 at the end of the FAQ while your system warms up smile.gif

That's what I figured. Reason I am asking is I can hear a difference after maybe a half hour to an hour of listening. While it's most likely my ears adjusting/getting "fatigued," I thought I'd ask anyway. I like to listen loud. Sometimes louder then others. I don't normally crank the hell out of it, but I'll listen to averages of 90 to 95db with 2 channel music listening. At first when I just start listening, everything sound nice and silky smooth, full and rich. After listening for about a half an hour or more, that starts to change. It starts to sound a tad bit more harsh, not very smooth or "silky." Sometimes a singer can sound what seems "muddled" on lower notes and a bit more "ear piercing" on higher notes then I notice when I first start listening. Because of this, I tried doing the Audyssey calibration after listening to music until it got to the point where I noticed the smoothness and richness was lessened. Still, made no difference. I'm sure this is my ears. My poor ears have been through quite a bit of abuse. When I was a kid, I'd always listening to everything REALLY LOUD all the time. Now that I've grown up, I realize how stupid that was and I fear I am paying the consequences and that more are to come as I age.
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post #59315 of 62757
1/21/13 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 

He was asking for sub only IIRC - so 20-300Hz.

 

Thanks Keith but all 3 graphs that I posted were sub only.  The difference was mic location (i.e. I did one measurement per the sub crawl with the sub at MLP and mic in the current sub location which is front right corner) with no Audyssey, and then two measurements with the mic at MLP and the sub in it's actual position both with and without Audyssey engaged.  The point of the sub only measurement was to see if the suckout still exists but I'm not sure which graph I should be analyzing for this?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


Looking at the 85 Hz null, I wonder if it is a result of a time delay issue between the mains and the sub. First off, it is impossible to perfectly time align a sub with 3 front speakers at 3 different distances (let alone all the surrounds), so the "splice" will look different for each case. Luckily, 80 Hz is a long enough wavelength that a sub timed to blend optimally with the center speaker will not cause a total null with the L or R.

To eliminate the possibility that the 85 Hz null is an interaction with the mains, try turning them off when you make the OM plot. If the null is gone, then try varying the delay time to the sub to see if you can make the null go away.

If the null remains even with the mains turned off, then finding a better location for the sub makes sense. The one in the middle of the room looks best, but as that is not an option, I like the Right Mid wall next. The narrow null at 28 Hz will rarely be an issue, and the general smoothness from 30-100 Hz will be easy for the EQ to handle, giving bass with little coloration, at least in the single seat where you take the measurements.

If you find that bass quality varies a lot as you audition different seats, you might consider adding a second sub in a different location. This can really help unify the response results around the seats, and can even help cancel room modes.

Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

 

Quote:

 

Ok, I wasn't quite sure if you wanted me to try the sub crawl FR curves again with sub only or go back to my post Audyssey setup and measure only the sub?  So, I did 3 things:

 

Measured the front right position with the sub only in MLP and mic in front right (same as I did for the crawl):

 

 

Measured the front right sub location with the sub only and the mic at MLP with no Audyssey (same as my red pre-Audyssey plot except sub only):

 

 

Same as above except with Audyssey engaged (which is my post Audyssey result with the sub only):

 

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post #59316 of 62757
1/21/13 at 12:40pm
I read where some of you use the Pro Kit for measuring XT32. You don't need the Pro license for this? Does it allow you to make changes to the XT32 bass curve? You can see all the recommended crossover from XT32?
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post #59317 of 62757
1/21/13 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Read the part of the FAQ on mic stands and boom arms ... and not sitting the mic on a seat. Even though you did not .. "come up short" .. before, there is a good chance that that rig sitting on the seat is the cause. It would be the first thing I investigated.

Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post


Thanks guys... I don't know how I missed that in the FAQ. Anyway, I ran again using a "tripod" (microphone taped to the end of a yard stick held upright by two weights). It measured closer, but still short. We're only talking about 4 feet difference the first time and 2 feet difference the second time. I adjusted it manually and can't hear any difference.

Could it have anything to do with my sub's phase setting? It's at zero.
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post #59318 of 62757
1/21/13 at 1:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

Doesn't matter. HST, I like my system to be warm before I use it - but it is surely just a hangover from my old tube amp days. Why not compromise - turn the system on, make a coffee and read through the 101 at the end of the FAQ while your system warms up smile.gif

That's what I figured. Reason I am asking is I can hear a difference after maybe a half hour to an hour of listening. While it's most likely my ears adjusting/getting "fatigued," I thought I'd ask anyway. I like to listen loud. Sometimes louder then others. I don't normally crank the hell out of it, but I'll listen to averages of 90 to 95db with 2 channel music listening. At first when I just start listening, everything sound nice and silky smooth, full and rich. After listening for about a half an hour or more, that starts to change. It starts to sound a tad bit more harsh, not very smooth or "silky." Sometimes a singer can sound what seems "muddled" on lower notes and a bit more "ear piercing" on higher notes then I notice when I first start listening. Because of this, I tried doing the Audyssey calibration after listening to music until it got to the point where I noticed the smoothness and richness was lessened. Still, made no difference. I'm sure this is my ears. My poor ears have been through quite a bit of abuse. When I was a kid, I'd always listening to everything REALLY LOUD all the time. Now that I've grown up, I realize how stupid that was and I fear I am paying the consequences and that more are to come as I age.

 

It is possible you have permanent hearing damage, but only an audiologist can tell you that for sure - maybe an appointment with one would be a good idea?

 

If it isn’t that, then the symptoms you describe - harshness, roughness etc - are typical of distortion in an amplifier, especially if the amp is running too loud for its designed capability. It is possible that it is running into clipping for example. 'Listening fatigue' when using high SPLs is common if you are overdriving the amps. In fact, one of the characteristics of a system with bags of headroom is that you can listen at incredibly high levels all day and the system continues to smooth and unstressed. When someone says a system sounds 'loud' they often mean it sounds 'distorted'. Systems with plenty of headroom rarely sound 'loud'. For example, in my own system, I often find that I think I am listening at a modest level until I try to speak to my wife and then find that not only can she not hear me, but I cannot even hear myself!

 

What amp or AVR do you have, what is the efficiency rating of your speakers and how close do you sit to them when you are listening at these 90/95 dB averages. I assume you have used a SPL meter to determine the average level?  If the average is truly 95dB then you are likely to be peaking at significantly higher SPLs than that. Depending on your answers the questions at the beginning of this paragraph, those sort of levels could indeed be a strain on your amps. 

 

You could try listening for an hour or so at averages of 85dB (which is still fairly loud) and report back if you continue (or not) to hear the harshness - that may give us a clue if you are running the amps into audible distortion.

 

Whatever is happening here, it doesn't sound like an Audyssey issue - so we are going OT, but with the forbearance of the other members, maybe they will cut us a little slack, as this topic is interesting and possibly relevant to some other members too. 

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post #59319 of 62757
1/21/13 at 1:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bsoko2 View Post

I read where some of you use the Pro Kit for measuring XT32. You don't need the Pro license for this? Does it allow you to make changes to the XT32 bass curve? You can see all the recommended crossover from XT32?

 

You need a Pro kit and a Pro licence to use Pro. Audyssey Pro allows limited changes to the target curve, including the bass region. For more info on Pro, take a look at the Pro FAQ, linked in my sig.

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post #59320 of 62757
1/21/13 at 1:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post



Thanks guys... I don't know how I missed that in the FAQ. Anyway, I ran again using a "tripod" (microphone taped to the end of a yard stick held upright by two weights). It measured closer, but still short. We're only talking about 4 feet difference the first time and 2 feet difference the second time. I adjusted it manually and can't hear any difference.

Could it have anything to do with my sub's phase setting? It's at zero.
Considering all you spent on your system, just buy a real microphone stand and do things right.
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post #59321 of 62757
1/21/13 at 1:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Read the part of the FAQ on mic stands and boom arms ... and not sitting the mic on a seat. Even though you did not .. "come up short" .. before, there is a good chance that that rig sitting on the seat is the cause. It would be the first thing I investigated.

Jeff
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post
 

Thanks guys... I don't know how I missed that in the FAQ. Anyway, I ran again using a "tripod" (microphone taped to the end of a yard stick held upright by two weights). It measured closer, but still short. We're only talking about 4 feet difference the first time and 2 feet difference the second time. I adjusted it manually and can't hear any difference.

Could it have anything to do with my sub's phase setting? It's at zero.

 

 It is far more likely to have something to do with the makeshift means of supporting the mic that you are using. A yardstick is far from a tripod and will not provide stable support. It is also made of wood, which is a terrible material to use for a mic stand. A proper boom mic stand costs less than 20 bucks from Amazon - I’d strongly suggest you invest in one - unless you do, you will never know that this is not the cause of the problem (and it is a problem). You will also find that all the answers you are likely to get from here will suggest that the mic technique is causing the problem. Eliminate that as an issue and you can demand more thorough investigation.

 

Sources of mic stand and the adapter you need to attach the Audyssey mic to it are here:

 

d)1.   Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand?

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post #59322 of 62757
1/21/13 at 1:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

It is possible you have permanent hearing damage, but only an audiologist can tell you that for sure - maybe an appointment with one would be a good idea?

If it isn’t that, then the symptoms you describe - harshness, roughness etc - are typical of distortion in an amplifier, especially if the amp is running too loud for its designed capability. It is possible that it is running into clipping for example. 'Listening fatigue' when using high SPLs is common if you are overdriving the amps. In fact, one of the characteristics of a system with bags of headroom is that you can listen at incredibly high levels all day and the system continues to smooth and unstressed. When someone says a system sounds 'loud' they often mean it sounds 'distorted'. Systems with plenty of headroom rarely sound 'loud'. For example, in my own system, I often find that I think I am listening at a modest level until I try to speak to my wife and then find that not only can she not hear me, but I cannot even hear myself!

What amp or AVR do you have, what is the efficiency rating of your speakers and how close do you sit to them when you are listening at these 90/95 dB averages. I assume you have used a SPL meter to determine the average level?  If the average is truly 95dB then you are likely to be peaking at significantly higher SPLs than that. Depending on your answers the questions at the beginning of this paragraph, those sort of levels could indeed be a strain on your amps. 

You could try listening for an hour or so at averages of 85dB (which is still fairly loud) and report back if you continue (or not) to hear the harshness - that may give us a clue if you are running the amps into audible distortion.

Whatever is happening here, it doesn't sound like an Audyssey issue - so we are going OT, but with the forbearance of the other members, maybe they will cut us a little slack, as this topic is interesting and possibly relevant to some other members too. 

Thanks for the response. My pre/pro is an Integra DHC-80.3 and my speakers are Seaton Catalyst 12Cs for LCR, 2 Submersive HP's and Seaton Sparks for surrounds. I KNOW I'm no where near the limits of these speakers. The clip lights remain dark as night at un-godly levels and I usually listen MUCH lower then that. If it is not my ears, the only thing I can think of is the amps can't perform to spec with the amount of current/power they are receiving. I have a dedicated room in the works with 3 dedicated 20 amp circuits just for the sound system. These speakers are currently in a bedroom on the 2nd floor, and the ENTIRE 2nd floor is run on 1(ONE) 15 amp circuit. I have never tripped a breaker with this system, but that's the only system related scenario I can think of.

Not sure of the sensitivities of the speakers since they are powered, but I would assume around 96db or more. I do have an SPL meter and about 90-95 db were the averages of the LOUDEST 2 channel listening I would do. However, I doubt these levels are straining the Seatons. I have had them MUCH louder (about 10db ABOVE reference) and the clip lights still have yet to light.
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post #59323 of 62757
1/21/13 at 1:56pm
And yes, I will certainly be getting my hearing checked, it's definitely concerning me.
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post #59324 of 62757
1/21/13 at 2:07pm
Although the clip lights haven't come on, there's still the possibility that distortion is creeping in somewhere. The power supplies should be able to compensate for fluctuations in the power line voltage, but maybe they're having problems doing so after they've warmed up for a while.

You might want to consider doing some tests. Supposedly the Audyssey microphone that came with your 80.3 is quite linear. If you plug that microphone into a computer's microphone input, you can use it with some spectrum analyzer software (REW, perhaps) to look for distortions. If you feed your system with a pure sine wave (perhaps from an audio test CD), the spectrum analyzer should show all of the energy in a peak at the sine wave's frequency. Peaks at any other frequency indicate distortions are happening. Some low-level distortions are unavoidable, but I'd expect enough to cause fatigue to be quite noticeable, especially since you report that it gets worse with time.
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post #59325 of 62757
1/21/13 at 3:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody777 View Post



Thanks guys... I don't know how I missed that in the FAQ. Anyway, I ran again using a "tripod" (microphone taped to the end of a yard stick held upright by two weights). It measured closer, but still short. We're only talking about 4 feet difference the first time and 2 feet difference the second time. I adjusted it manually and can't hear any difference.

Could it have anything to do with my sub's phase setting? It's at zero.

Nah, that wouldn't be it. And that setting is as recommended. Most likely something with the mic not being isolated mechanically. At this point, if you are within 2 feet, and previously (previous AVR) the same sub's distance setting was the same as the physical distance, then you can leave it 2 feet "short" or set it to the actual distance.

Jeff

Finally re-shot my feet on the beach for the avatar ... little stylizing in Photoshop and ... Bob's your uncle!
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post #59326 of 62757
1/21/13 at 3:49pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Selden Ball View Post

Although the clip lights haven't come on, there's still the possibility that distortion is creeping in somewhere. The power supplies should be able to compensate for fluctuations in the power line voltage, but maybe they're having problems doing so after they've warmed up for a while.

You might want to consider doing some tests. Supposedly the Audyssey microphone that came with your 80.3 is quite linear. If you plug that microphone into a computer's microphone input, you can use it with some spectrum analyzer software (REW, perhaps) to look for distortions. If you feed your system with a pure sine wave (perhaps from an audio test CD), the spectrum analyzer should show all of the energy in a peak at the sine wave's frequency. Peaks at any other frequency indicate distortions are happening. Some low-level distortions are unavoidable, but I'd expect enough to cause fatigue to be quite noticeable, especially since you report that it gets worse with time.

It is certainly interesting. Thanks for the test info. I'll do that, along with a more "un-official" test to see if it's my ears or not. I'll let the system play for about 45 minutes at the levels I typically listen while I am NOT in the room. I'll go into a silent room. Then after it plays for about 45 minutes, I'll listen to see if the slight harshness is there. If it's not and it sounds as if I just powered up the system, then I know it's my ears. I know saying the speakers and amps are being used well within their limits is an understatement. I've heard these things really crank, and it gets quite ridiculous without audible distortion. I haven't listened that loud for more then a song or two though.

Right now I'm listening to Jethro Tull at an average of about 86-87db and so far, it sounds fantastic. Granted, I've been listening for about 10 minutes. Let's see what happens after an hour.

If it IS because of the current available to my speakers amps, would the problem go away once the speakers are moved into the room with the dedicated circuits? Can that permanently damage the amps?
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post #59327 of 62757
1/21/13 at 4:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Theresa View Post

Considering all you spent on your system, just buy a real microphone stand and do things right.

Ok tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

 It is far more likely to have something to do with the makeshift means of supporting the mic that you are using. A yardstick is far from a tripod and will not provide stable support. It is also made of wood, which is a terrible material to use for a mic stand. A proper boom mic stand costs less than 20 bucks from Amazon - I’d strongly suggest you invest in one - unless you do, you will never know that this is not the cause of the problem (and it is a problem). You will also find that all the answers you are likely to get from here will suggest that the mic technique is causing the problem. Eliminate that as an issue and you can demand more thorough investigation.

Sources of mic stand and the adapter you need to attach the Audyssey mic to it are here:

d)1.   Do I really need to put the Audyssey mic on a tripod or stand?

Ok, ok tongue.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

Nah, that wouldn't be it. And that setting is as recommended. Most likely something with the mic not being isolated mechanically. At this point, if you are within 2 feet, and previously (previous AVR) the same sub's distance setting was the same as the physical distance, then you can leave it 2 feet "short" or set it to the actual distance.

Jeff

Finally re-shot my feet on the beach for the avatar ... little stylizing in Photoshop and ... Bob's your uncle!

Thanks... I manually adjusted it to the actual difference. Like I said, I can't hear a difference. I have much bigger issues than this with my new sub. I'm still trouble shooting with Rhythmik to figure out if the sub is defective or if it's something in my setup. I hope it's just my setup.

Next time I run Audyssey, I'll do it right biggrin.gif
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post #59328 of 62757
1/21/13 at 4:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackdevil77 View Post

It is certainly interesting. Thanks for the test info. I'll do that, along with a more "un-official" test to see if it's my ears or not. I'll let the system play for about 45 minutes at the levels I typically listen while I am NOT in the room. I'll go into a silent room. Then after it plays for about 45 minutes, I'll listen to see if the slight harshness is there. If it's not and it sounds as if I just powered up the system, then I know it's my ears. I know saying the speakers and amps are being used well within their limits is an understatement. I've heard these things really crank, and it gets quite ridiculous without audible distortion. I haven't listened that loud for more then a song or two though.

Right now I'm listening to Jethro Tull at an average of about 86-87db and so far, it sounds fantastic. Granted, I've been listening for about 10 minutes. Let's see what happens after an hour.

If it IS because of the current available to my speakers amps, would the problem go away once the speakers are moved into the room with the dedicated circuits? Can that permanently damage the amps?

My bet is on something wrong with a component in your system.
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post #59329 of 62757
1/21/13 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar View Post

My bet is on something wrong with a component in your system.

If it is a component, I would guess it's the pre/pro. That's just me. What are the odds of 3 separate amps having the same issue? That and the amps are barely warm to the touch.

After some more listening, it is certainly less pro-nounced at lower levels. It was fairly subtle to begin with. The louder it is, the more obvious the change from when you power on to listening for 40+ minutes. After this kicks in and I start noticing the slight harshness, I can crank it up a considerable amount and there is no ADDED harshness or distortion that I can tell. It will sound EXACTLY the same, just louder. If it was the amps or speakers, I would imagine increases the volume would also increase the problem.
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post #59330 of 62757
1/21/13 at 6:35pm
Hi guys,

I just bought a new sub for my system and obviously i have to re-run Audyssey again to calibrate it, do i have to re do Audyssey for the whole system or can i just do it for the sub without effecting the settings of the rest of the speakers, im using a Denon Avr 1912, thanks in advance.
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post #59331 of 62757
1/21/13 at 9:01pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jkasanic View Post

Ok, I wasn't quite sure if you wanted me to try the sub crawl FR curves again with sub only or go back to my post Audyssey setup and measure only the sub?  So, I did 3 things:
Well, if sub crawl reciprocity is valid, it appear like the sub alone is not producing the 85 Hz null. So I'd suggest going back to the complete setup where you first showed the 85 Hz null, and run some OM sweeps. Start as originally configured to verify the null is still there. If that was a L-ch sweep, try C channel. Is there a null? If so, vary the delay to the sub a few ms and try again. If the null gets deeper, go the other way. If it goes away, then check the L/R sweeps. The trick is to find a setting that works for all three.
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post #59332 of 62757
1/21/13 at 9:40pm
Hi guys,

I have an Audyssey question. Since when Audyssey is utilized 0 db is reference level volume should two systems playing the same material at for example -30 db be playing back at the same volume? I ask because in my two HT rooms one AVR seems a lot louder at the same volume setting - am I missing something in my understanding of how Audyssey works?
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post #59333 of 62757
1/21/13 at 10:08pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mejinuf View Post

Hi guys,

I just bought a new sub for my system and obviously i have to re-run Audyssey again to calibrate it, do i have to re do Audyssey for the whole system or can i just do it for the sub without effecting the settings of the rest of the speakers, im using a Denon Avr 1912, thanks in advance.

You gotta do the whole shebang again, can't just recalibrate one speaker. So, sorry, 15 minutes of your life will be gone instead of just 3 wink.gif
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post #59334 of 62757
1/21/13 at 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by EVT View Post

Hi guys,

I have an Audyssey question. Since when Audyssey is utilized 0 db is reference level volume should two systems playing the same material at for example -30 db be playing back at the same volume? I ask because in my two HT rooms one AVR seems a lot louder at the same volume setting - am I missing something in my understanding of how Audyssey works?

In theory, two receivers with Audyssey MultEQ + Dynamic EQ should be calibrated to the same "reference". (Note that Audyssey receivers pre Dyn EQ didn't necessarily do this)

In practice, there are a lot of variables, especially if you are just using your ears and not measuring. Different speakers, different room acoustics, different source content, different settings... all of these can impact your perception of volume. For example, if the two receivers are playing different sources (e.g. cable box vs. blu-ray) and different Dynamic Volume settings, there can be a dramatic difference in volume at a given "number".

If you want to verify, best to measure. Plop an SPL meter in the same place as where you took your first mic measurement when running Audyssey in both rooms, run the test tones... if the speakers all read within +/-2dB of the same number (probably 72-76dB or so) then the receivers are both calibrated the same.
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post #59335 of 62757
1/21/13 at 11:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by kbarnes701 View Post

There is no known bug that causes variations in results from different measurements taken in the exact same circumstances. Move the mic 1 inch and you may get variations.

What, specifically, are you referring to by way of variations?

As I described earlier, I feel that the sound is shrinking dramatically and that it has lost this sense of the sound floats freely in the room and the sound is perceived as compressed and lifeless.
But then in between I get a perfect calibration (or whatever it is) where everything opens up again, I had the same phenomenon on my previous preamp (Onkyo PR SC 5507)
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post #59336 of 62757
1/22/13 at 6:36am
Running Audyssey MultEQ XT on a 5.1 system incorporating an existing high-end audio system

I have a high-end audio system which includes a subwoofer that is connected with speaker wires to the left and right speaker outputs of my tube amplifier along with the speaker wires from my front left & right stereo speakers. I then connect the front left and right preamp out from my Onkyo TX709 AV receiver to the tube amplifier which powers the front left & right audio in to produce 5.1 surround sound using the center channel and surround left and right connected to the appropriate speaker terminals of the AV receiver. When I ran Audyssey, it correctly sends the test signal to all speakers but NOT the subwoofer. The subwoofer was setup correctly to produce high end stereo sound with my front speakers. Is there anything else I need to do to set my surround sound system up correctly?
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post #59337 of 62757
1/22/13 at 7:00am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jwhart View Post

Running Audyssey MultEQ XT on a 5.1 system incorporating an existing high-end audio system

I have a high-end audio system which includes a subwoofer that is connected with speaker wires to the left and right speaker outputs of my tube amplifier along with the speaker wires from my front left & right stereo speakers. I then connect the front left and right preamp out from my Onkyo TX709 AV receiver to the tube amplifier which powers the front left & right audio in to produce 5.1 surround sound using the center channel and surround left and right connected to the appropriate speaker terminals of the AV receiver. When I ran Audyssey, it correctly sends the test signal to all speakers but NOT the subwoofer. The subwoofer was setup correctly to produce high end stereo sound with my front speakers. Is there anything else I need to do to set my surround sound system up correctly?

 

Since there is no actual connection to the Sub Out on the AVR, the AVR has no way of knowing that you have a sub connected.  Each sub and the speaker it is connected to will be EQ'ed as one.  Not the best calibration, IMO, since it soesn't take advantage of the sub filters in Audyssey, but it should work.

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post #59338 of 62757
1/22/13 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fischer View Post

As I described earlier, I feel that the sound is shrinking dramatically and that it has lost this sense of the sound floats freely in the room and the sound is perceived as compressed and lifeless.
But then in between I get a perfect calibration (or whatever it is) where everything opens up again, I had the same phenomenon on my previous preamp (Onkyo PR SC 5507)

Stop calibrating when you get one that floats around the room!

Jeff
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post #59339 of 62757
1/22/13 at 7:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by batpig View Post

In theory, two receivers with Audyssey MultEQ + Dynamic EQ should be calibrated to the same "reference". (Note that Audyssey receivers pre Dyn EQ didn't necessarily do this)

In practice, there are a lot of variables, especially if you are just using your ears and not measuring. Different speakers, different room acoustics, different source content, different settings... all of these can impact your perception of volume. For example, if the two receivers are playing different sources (e.g. cable box vs. blu-ray) and different Dynamic Volume settings, there can be a dramatic difference in volume at a given "number".

If you want to verify, best to measure. Plop an SPL meter in the same place as where you took your first mic measurement when running Audyssey in both rooms, run the test tones... if the speakers all read within +/-2dB of the same number (probably 72-76dB or so) then the receivers are both calibrated the same.

Thanks batpig,

I calibrated both systems but for testing I turned off Dynamic EQ and Dynamic Volume and used the exact same source to test to minimize the variables. I don't have a reliable SPL meter on hand that I can use (just an iPad app) so I didn't conduct any measurments. However, the difference in volume is obvious.

The rooms are in fact very different but it is the larger room with taller ceilings that sounds much louder - that's what's suprising. The larger room 2,650 cubic feet and has hardwood floors, I'm running 8ohm Polk RTi towers with a matching centre, dipole surrounds and back surround speakers. The quieter room is about 1,000 cubic feet but it's carpeted, I'm running 8ohm Energy RC towers with a matching centre and dipole surrounds. Both setups are powered by Denon 331x receivers and I have a 12" Velodyne sub in each room.

Even though I expect the room with the hardwood floors to be livelier I'm surprised at how much louder it actually sounds at the same volume level, is this normal?
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post #59340 of 62757
1/22/13 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post


Well, if sub crawl reciprocity is valid, it appear like the sub alone is not producing the 85 Hz null. So I'd suggest going back to the complete setup where you first showed the 85 Hz null, and run some OM sweeps. Start as originally configured to verify the null is still there. If that was a L-ch sweep, try C channel. Is there a null? If so, vary the delay to the sub a few ms and try again. If the null gets deeper, go the other way. If it goes away, then check the L/R sweeps. The trick is to find a setting that works for all three.

 

Thanks for the feedback.  Just to be certain that I'm doing the FR sweep correctly using OM, I have my Integra set to Dolby PLIIx (Audyssey off) and I was using Track 2 (monophonic short sine sweep).  I guess in this mode this track is playing to all speakers because when I wanted to measure only the sub, I had to turn off both of my external amps that are driving my LCR and 4 surrounds to avoid having any other speakers chirp.

 

Reviewing this list of Test Tracks from OM:

 

I guess I could try tracks 6 and 12 for the L and R with sub per your suggestion.  If all speakers are supposed to play with track 2 when using Dolby PLIIx should I switch to stereo mode?  To test the center channel with sub then should I plug it into the L or R channel on my prepro to measure it with the sub using track 6 or 12 respectively?  Sorry for all the OM related questions as I've read through the OM thread here but I think I can safely say this thread has been far more informative already with respect to measuring techniques and best practices.

 

EDIT:  I guess I should also be looking at the Bass Decay for the sub crawl?!


Edited by jkasanic - 1/22/13 at 9:56am
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AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Receivers, Amps, and Processors › "Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1)