"Official" Audyssey thread (FAQ in post #1) - Page 1989

^ Depends.  What is your objective using Dynamic Volume?  I never use it, and simply adjust MV depending on the content.

Basically I wan't to know if I have to set it where the dialogue seems comfortable for each individual program or set the volume once and everything (no matter if you switch discs or change the channel) falls into place.

^IME there is too much variation in content for one MV setting to work for everything, setting aside my subjective state irt audio on any particular day.

Basically I leave DVol on Eve for cableTV and adjust to taste based on content. I leave DVol Off for music and for "action" BluRays.

From the FAQ:
"A useful tip is to just set the master volume control so that you can comfortably hear the dialogue in your movie - then turn on Dynamic Volume and you are good to go."
Edited by SoundofMind - 2/3/13 at 4:51am

But given that Dynamic Volume tends to boost the dialogue, wouldn't I still need to fiddle with the master volume once I activate it, after having found where the dialogue sounds good with DV set to off?

I would hope not. That's the point of turning DVol off first, setting MV and turning DVol back on. It will keep dialog at that level and all else will be compressed according to the DVol intensity setting; Med compression=evening, Strong compression=midnight.

IOW, the soft parts (dialog) are kept audible and the loud (music swells, explosions) are kept from getting too loud. Is that the effect you desire?

Can you set the dy vol on/off for different inputs? I have Denon 3313

you are talking about normalizing average levels between different programs and the short answer is no you cannot. DynVol at the midnight setting comes close, but at a very high cost in terms of the effect it has on the sound It's great, and I use it essentially nightly, for when you are listening very quietly and don't want to lose quiet passages (we use it for betdime music, for example) but it is far from transparent and I would not want to listen to it all the time.

There just aren't rules. Although movies are mixed on systems calibrated to "reference" the dialog level at reference may average from around 77 dB to 85 dB beteen different movies. Subjectively the one is almost twice as loud as the other. Music is even more difficult. I have a recording of Bach's Moonlight sonata that jumps about 20 dB when it goes from the very quiet opening to the second theme. That's four times louder. If you listen to popular music recently recorded, the average levels may very well be within 2 or 6 dB of the very loudest you can possibly encode on a digital medium. Something from the eighties, or jazz or classical, may have average levels 10 dB or more below that.

At present there is no system I have heard of that accurately and adequately can account for all these differences on the fly. Dialnorm is a movie "thing" and is supposed to do it but it's not implemented particularly consistently so it doesn't really help.

And because music is delivered with such varied average levels, you might find it necessary to use the offset function for Audyssey dynamic volume and dynamic EQ so that they don't overcompensate, causing unpleasantly bass heavy playback.

I will say that most nights, with over the air TV, I could probably live with DynVol at the evening setting and never touch my volume control. But it's not generally worth it to me, because it uses enough compression that it inevitably changes the sound, making it more closed in . . . unless we are listening pretty quietly. Then the closed inness, even if still noticeable, is worth the trade off of not missing a line of dialog every few minutes because it's just a bit quieter.

 

Forgive me if this is an incorrect assumption on my part, but I am not sure that you fully understand how DV works. Have a look at this FAQ answer and see if this answers your questions:

 

g)1.   What is Dynamic Volume?

Keith,

Do you get the Super Bowl broadcast over there and (to keep it Audyssey related) will you be listening in DSX?

Keith hates DSX so I already know the answer to the second question

Yes indeed and that should be one of the settings that Denon Personal Memory Plus remembers per input.(See Memory Functions in your OM), or you could use a Quick Select memory.

I use DVol for TV. Unfortunately, the way you describe it isn't quite how DV works.

From my twiddling with it, it appears that DV boosts the dialogue volume to a certain extent if the MV is set lower, and then compresses anything significantly louder. It does allow the user to turn the average level up higher via the MV while still compressing sounds that are even louder.

The thing is though, with DV on, I can hear the dialogue clearly with the MV at -10, -30 and even -50db (even though the average levels for everything else may be higher at -10 than -30 or -50db, the dialogue level changes the least). If I turn DV off though, dialogue is clear at -10db, may occasionally be missed at -30db and is wayyy too soft at -50db.

I've actually used DV with the MV at -50db to watch an action movie late at night while folks were sleeping and it worked great. Dialogue was intelligible but the overall levels were quiet enough not to disturb anyone.


Max
Edited by djbluemax1 - 2/3/13 at 2:07pm

Why is that?

^

I'm really torn between a Denon 2313CI and a Pioneer SC-1222-K. Both units have a 9 band manual EQ.

I'm trying to understand what Audyssey XT does to a sub below the crossover point..... Does it EQ a sub similar to using an multi-band EQ and if so, how many points is it EQ'ing in the sub range?

habe

 

Not Keith, but I have been involved in the discussions.  Keith has only Height speakers (no room for Wides), and prefers PLIIz to DSX.  I don't recall him saying that he hates DSX--it's a preference thing.

Max, I believe you're describing what happens when turning DVol on and then setting MV. If you prefer that, well that's fine, too. Note that for situations like when folks are sleeping nearby, many folks set the intensity of DVol to max=midnight to keep the dynamic range very restricted rather than have to turn MV so far down.

I really don't see your description as inconsistent with what of I posted. The tip comes from Chris (audyssey) here:
"Dynamic Volume is designed to constrain the dynamic range around a reference level. In film content that is dialog and Dynamic Volume leaves that untouched. It makes sure that things don't get too loud above and not too soft below that level. That way you can set the volume control for the dialog level you prefer and not have to worry about changing the volume all the time when watching movies."

Here is an elaboration, which I think is what you're experiencing, postedhere:

"Dynamic Volume is designed to work around dialog. At very low volumes you will hear a greater effect of Dynamic Volume on dialog (especially soft dialog) because it is likely boosting to bring it up. As you raise the volume there is less of a need to raise the dialog so most of what Dynamic Volume does is control the very loud sounds so they stay within the limits you have selected (by the Day, Evening, Midnight setting)."

I have a 7.1 configuration and I like PLIIz as well. It would be really cool if you could hook up external amplification and run 11.1 total. I have the Denon 3313. 7 channel amplification with the option of wides, heights, or back surrounds.

He's repeated his reasons about 100 times so all it would take is 2 minutes of your time an the "advanced search" feature to find one of his many statements on the matter

Over at the Ask Audyssey site, Chris Kyriakakis acknowledged that DV boost dialogue:

So that tip in the FAQ seems incorrect. You can't just pick a volume level where dialogue sounds good with DV off and then simply turn DV on. The dialogue will be boosted (by an amount that varies from soundtrack to soundtrack) and will therefor be louder than where you found it comfortable with DV off.
Edited by RocShemp - 2/4/13 at 3:40am

What it does for the sub is no different than what it does for any other channel, although the MultEQ XT in the 2313 has much higher resolution filters in the sub channel. It isn't anything like "bands" of parametric EQ. I suggest you google "MultEQ product tour" and watch the little slide show at Audyssey's website which explains the concept well.

You have the tip backwards, so you're right-your backwards version doesn't work.

"...just set the master volume control so that you can comfortably hear the dialogue in your movie-then turn on Dynamic Volume and you are good to go."

It's just funner for the sake of conversation to ask. I do some online gaming and we get new people often. We help them along even though it's a repetitive process so they can learn.

Batpig recommended this to me which caused me to settle finally yesterday on the Denon 3313. It's very nice. The audyssey tour blew me away. You will be a smarter person for reading it.

Thanks! That cleared it right up for me!

I hear ya to be honest I was just posting quickly on my iPhone and didn't have the patience to type it out, so I was being a bit flip.

Here's the gist:

Each of the "surround expansion" systems have their own philosophy and technique for how they generate the additional speakers.

What Audyssey DSX does is generate "fake" reflections with the extra speakers to make the space feel much larger than it actually is. Audyssey performed a lot of research on why spaces like giant concert halls and huge movie theaters sound so great and immersive, and this research informed their decision on where to place the additional wide + height speakers. These angular positions are where the most "pleasing" reflections come from in these huge venues, and are deemed the most important for generating the sense of immersiveness and "audio source width" for the listener.

Specifically, what DSX does is take the signals from the FR/FL channels and copy them, with a few milliseconds of delay and some "secret sauce" processing, to the wide and height channels. This creates the sensation of reflections to trick your brain into believing the room is a huge movie theater or concert hall instead of your living room. Almost like a "wall of sound" effect. Additionally, DSX performs some more "secret sauce" processing called "surround envelopment processing", in which the surrounds are deemphasized a bit (dropped in level and decorrelated) to make them less prominent and enhance that "wall of sound" wrapping around your frontal hemisphere.

If you read the DSX product description, you can see they spend a lot of time making the argument that more resources should be concentrated on the frontal hemisphere: http://www.audyssey.com/audio-technology/audyssey-dsx

So, the bottom line is that it creates a more in-your-face, front heavy presentation which Keith finds distasteful.

PLIIz on the other hand extracts ambiance (uncorrelated sounds) from the surround channels, and routes them to the height channels. The effect is more subtle and "ambient" and doesn't call quite as much attention to itself, and it also doesn't attempt to tinker with the front/rear balance of the content.

I read the FAQ but I still have some questions regarding MultEQ XT on Denon AVR-2808 (EU model with firmware 19.04.2010 30.25).
My current speaker configuration is a bit skinny: 2x Chorus 726 fronts and 2x Dali Zensor 1 surrounds. There is no sub (but will be), center (I don't even want that) or surround backs (I absolutely don't want those).
The room is small and has relatively poor acoustic characteristics. I play to more the equipment to a bigger and caustically treated room in a few months, but until then...


1: Does Audyssey try to draw a 2D map of the speakers and apply any corrections based on the 2D speaker positions?

I see that it measures the time delays (and calculates 1D metric distances from that data to show me something I can understand more easily than milliseconds).
But does it calculates the angles and does it apply some kind of corrections based on this information?

I mean... If I place my surround speakers "anywhere behind my back", will the DSP know where they are and mix the 2D sound according to that information?

I want to know this, because I get better frequency-SPL spectrum in the main listening position when I use a single measurement point.
And may be that's only a coincidence or placebo, but the spatial placement of the sound feels better when I use more points.
This is a small room, so the sound (especially the low range) varies a lot based on the listening position. But the room being small means I use it alone, so I have one listening position I care about.
But I care about both frequency linearity and correct 2D surround sound positioning.

So, my dilemma is:
-> If the algorithm wants to calculate a 2D map (could be presented as angles on the OSD), then it absolutely needs multiple points across both horizontal axises, and thus I have to use multiple points.
-> If it doesn't care about the angles, then A: I can go with a single measuring point and enjoy the more linear frequency response when I am alone in the room + B: I need to be more careful with the speaker placement!

I didn't read a word about this, so I could assume there is no 2D mapping.
However, this would be a serious limitation from an otherwise very complex and hyped calibration system, so I must assume it does map the speaker positions in 2D and applies corrections for that.
What's the truth then...?


2: I don't have surround back or multiple front speakers, so I have various options to use the bi-amp capability of my front speakers
(The AVR has separated Front A and B outputs which can operate in A+B mode and the surround back outputs are the official choices from bi-amplification).

If the algorithms are smart enough, this can theoretically double the filter resolution of the front speakers because I assign two fully separate channels for the fronts which can be separately filtered by the DSP.
Does bi-amp really yields separately filtered low and high ranges for the front speakers? Or are the control points fixed around the frequency axis?
Edited by janos666 - 2/3/13 at 9:00pm

Very interesting stuff. My time with my new 3313 and these listening modes has been short for me to formulate a personal preference on these two. I guess those preferences may change if it was music or movies...Ok tested it out with my stool to get up close with the front heights, also from ideal listening position.. Not sure for movies. I could do both. Music is definitely dsx heights tho. I guess it's time to actually dissect the audyssey links yall post often...

I have my avr set to turn on at a default volume of -30db (just in case I forgot a previous movie session at THX Reference). Dvol is Off by default for the Oppo input. When I turn everything On, at my default -30db, if I turn Dvol On, the dialogue level is immediately boosted with no change in the MV from my default -30db.

If I want to ensure that I don't disturb anyone who's asleep, Dvol Heavy/Midnight at -30db can still potentially get too loud on some movies, so I've tried turning it down from there. When it's quiet late at night, I've had it at -55db and it was fine.

To me, it sounded like turning Dvol on at -30db boosted the dialogue volume to about -15 to -17db levels. Turning the MV down to -50db from -30db sounded like the dialogue only turned down to -20 to -25db levels, but explosions were compressed so they don't get loud.

When I get home, I'll doublecheck to see if turning the MV down to -50db prior to engaging Dvol sounds any different (without Dvol, dialogue is unintelligible at -50db). From what I recall from messing around with it, I believe it will boost the dialogue volume significantly compared to -50db without Dvol.


Max

Sorry. I meant to say turn DV on. I edited my previous post to correct that mistake.

I've done exactly as the tip suggested. In my case, I'll say listen to something at -20 with DV off. Dialogue sounds comfortable there and then I trun DV on. However, the dialogue volume then gets boosted and I find myself having to lower the volume to around -30 (or more, depending on the film).

That's my startup volume as well. And I've noticed the same thing as you when turning DV on. The dialogue is definitely boosted and I have to turn the master volume down. down.

I'm sorry that I totally missed your reply earlier. You definitely addressed my questions. I was hoping that DV would have been able to achieve what dialnorm could not (due to how the latter was poorly implemented by mixers). So I guess I'll just stick to using it for late night viewing. I have found that even the Light mode tames peaks more than enough when I want to listen quietly at night.

Thanks again for your response and sorry it took me so long to noitce it.
Edited by RocShemp - 2/4/13 at 4:00am

Hi. I had a US version 988 and the 2808 is a nice older model AVR. If you could post some pics of the room and/or a diagram it might help if you're looking for specific suggestions for a difficult space.